Sunday, November 13, 2005

Summarizing (& Clarifying) a Few Things

Our posting at 4 am this morning was a little disjointed (sleep deprivation). We based the posts on what we were seeing in the comments sections of previous posts. Anyway, here's what we know:
  • the department IS shorting certain districts at least one car more than one night a week. It is PROBABLY being done in violation of the contract. It is DEFINITELY one of the root causes for the explosion in the property crime numbers in these districts. Criminals go where the police aren't - it's better for them if we aren't there.
  • the department IS sending entire gang/tact teams out of districts more than one night a week. There are Area Gang Teams that are taking manpower directly from districts. It is also DEFINITELY another root cause for the rise in property crimes. A district gang/tact team doesn't do a District any good if it ain't where its supposed to be.
  • the department IS paying guys and gals to work a day off if the day off happens to be Friday or Saturday. The info gathered doesn't seem to nail down the straight time/time and a half argument, but this is indicative of a LARGE manpower shortage. We have done a number of posts on the manpower numbers being well below average and we've heard the stories of time due denied, P-days cancelled and furlough extensions shot down.
We're curious. Can anyone identify a spike in property crimes directly related to lower manpower numbers? Sure, homicides might be down, but they're down nationally, so we might just be part of a trend. The trouble is trends take a few years to become obvious. Someone really ought to be contacting their aldercreatures though. Lots of someones.

And to the person claiming to be a "high-ranking member" of the department who was disappointed with the commentary going on, thanks for the info you clarified, which is one of the reasons we have commentary - to get the actual info out there. You're welcome to start an alternative news source if you don't like ours. Whatever.

54 Comments:

Anonymous Englewood Retiree said...

Whenever the CPD talks about 10-99 units during 3rd and 1st watch, talk to old-timers about what happened in the aftermath of the 1st watch shotgun murder of PO Kenny Kaner at 74th & Union in 007 years ago.

Also the late Bob Wenzel at 1800 N. LSD.

How much blood must flow before all district units are two officers during the hours of darkness?

11/13/2005 09:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Honolulu Officers Taking Survey To Gauge Resentment
November 8th, 2005

MARISA YAMANE
KHON 2 News

Honolulu police officers say they're not happy with Chief Boisse Correa's leadership, and they're hoping a survey will help gauge the extent of the problem.

Members of the Oahu chapter of SHOPO -- the police union -- received a two-page survey over the weekend.

The survey targets Chief Correa and morale issues.

They're Honolulu's finest.

But many are not fine with their top leader, Chief Boisse Correa.

"The members of the department are very disillusioned with the direction the department is going right now," says Detective Alex Garcia, SHOPO Oahu Chapter chairperson.

Garcia says officers are most upset over discipline and staffing policies.

"I think the morale of the department will affect the community. If the officers aren't happy in their working conditions, if they aren't satisfied with their job, it will reflect on the way we work," says Garcia.

The Oahu chapter of SHOPO is now conducting a survey to rate Chief Correa's performance and officers' morale.

Results will be given to the mayor, City Council, and Honolulu Police Commission.

"We hope to establish some communication with the administration. Right now the chief doesn't want to communicate with us," says Garcia.

There are 15 questions, and five answers to choose from, ranging from always, to never.

Questions include: "I wish we had a different chief."

"I think about leaving the department."

"The chief is fair in dealing with me and the others."

We got an outside opinion of the survey from Barbara Ankersmit, who has 34 years of experience dealing with surveys.

"The survey -- in and of itself -- the questions look fair. They look well balanced," says Ankersmit.

But she says the survey only rates Chief Correa on his interpersonal skills, not his management and administrative skills.

And she's concerned about the number of officers that will respond.

"If you have a 10 or 15 percent response rate, you worry about something we researchers call non-response error. Are the people who didn't respond the same as the people who did respond?" says Ankersmit.

"The bottom line is we want positive results, we want to work in a good environment, we want to have a fair shake every day," says Garcia.

Chief Correa says he respects SHOPO and doesn't expect all its members to agree with all of his decisions.

And as chief, he feels it's his responsibility to work with the employees to provide the community with the highest level of police service possible.

Results of the survey are expected in several weeks.

11/13/2005 10:10:00 PM  
Anonymous me said...

TYPICAL COPPERS

POs get involved in things. Also, get fucked over by the city.. Its typical they don’t notify the FOP. What do you think you’re paying dues for? Does FOP know about these details going on the midnights that have possibly going on for a while now? Probably not. It’s the coppers fault for not notifying them.

For those of you that say “shut-up” and do your jobs.. You are fools. You give the city an inch and they’ll take a foot. How would you like it if someone was breaking into your house right now in 016 with your wife and kids there..
AND NO POLICE TO RESPOND?

11/13/2005 10:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This department sucks. I honor the pos that have died for this job and would never badmouth any of them but fuck this job. Im not doing shit until things change around here and as for FOP fuck them. When are new elections so we can vote them out?

11/13/2005 11:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CPD is budjeted for about 13,900 to 14,300 members (I dont know if that includes exempt???), that means the City HAS those ANNUAL PAYCHECKS for 14,300 members... Right now, we are luckey if we have 9,500 police out on the street! (all of those exempt spots are filled up while your riding -99!) What ever we dont use, we loose!, All of those checks go right back into the Citys account so our favorite Mayor can spend it on his flower pots, fences, that silver turd park down town, the airport up north whis will be expanding soon... The real bad thing is "Well, Mr Mayor, Crime is down... look see right here, look how good I'm doing Mr Mayor!" says the superintendent, "and I did it with less than 10000 police!" and how many more police do you think the Dept. is going to get next year???

11/13/2005 11:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hence, the City cannot deny a timely compensatory leave request solely for financial reasons. In addition, from a review of this record, we conclude that the City has not proved that granting the Police Officers’ otherwise timely requests for compensatory leave would result in an unreasonable financial burden and thereby cause an undue disruption of its operations. Absent a clear showing by the City of undue disruption of its police services, due to severe financial constraints to pay overtime to substitute officers, the City’s denials of Police Officers’ timely requests for accrued compensation leave must be held to violate Section 207(o)(5).

11/14/2005 01:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Results will be given to the mayor, City Council, and Honolulu Police Commission.

"We hope to establish some communication with the administration. Right now the chief doesn't want to communicate with us," says Garcia.

-----

oh pls!!!!! NOBODY, copers or otherwise likes their boss!

11/14/2005 01:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does FOP know about these details going on the midnights that have possibly going on for a while now? Probably not. It’s the coppers fault for not notifying them.


-----

Ya, sure. Just who are you going to talk to about this?? Your unit rep?? that oh-so friendly female voice that answers the phone there?? The FOP is useless. call the media (alot)

11/14/2005 01:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

01:47:41 AM ...

And when was the last FOP meeting you went to never? You have the right to tell the FOP you don't want to be a member and you can save the $20 bucks a paycheck or so on union dues.

If a there has been a contract violation it should be resolved.. Our bargaining unit has a LEGAL responsiblity to act upon it if someone has been screwed.

11/14/2005 02:06:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 02;06
You do NOT have a right to not pay union dues
You have a right to be a fair share member which saves you about a buck or two a paycheck

This membership excludes you from the fraternal part of the membership such as the ability to attend the golf outing santas village the turkey raffles and from the free legal representation.

11/14/2005 02:12:00 AM  
Anonymous The real Neil Maas said...

Normally, I do not read this blog, but co-workers brought to my attention someone has been posting comments with my name. Normally I would not respond, but since the phony comments involved my fellow brothers who serve this country I felt it was my duty to respond.

As a Viet Nam veteran, anyone who knows me knows that I would never condemn any other serviceman. I was downtown on Friday at the ceremony for the memorial for Viet Nam veterans reading the names of guys who did not return. I didn't see the phony author there.

This obvious non-veteran probably couldn't even spell SEMPER FI! The only good thing he wrote was happy birthday to the Marines.

The real Neil Maas, Area 2

11/14/2005 02:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again, An unknown source from payroll related, on the 1st and 16th they cut about 8,500-9,000 checks for the CPD payroll. However, the city says we have approx. 13,500 employed in the CPD. Rumor?
think about it! look in you annual report!

11/14/2005 02:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We're Doomed, We'll never make it!!!

11/14/2005 03:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone hear anything about how the city is studying ways to get rid of our pensions to save money? That comes from someone in the know....

11/14/2005 03:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LAST COMMENT: THANKS MEMEBRS FOR VOTING IN STEVE ROBBINS. THE FOP LACKEY, MARK DONAHUE'S FRIEND. PENSION+GONE!
AS FOR Manpower. Figure every district at 250 P.O."s , that's generous! = 6250. minus detailed out, sos, narcotics and other units. Some districts are lucky to have 11 po's working a watch. You know who you are! WHAT IF YOU NEED HELP. IT'S NOT THERE.
CAll a 10-1 in 011 you got 15 cars, call a 10-1 in 8 or 16 maybe 4 to 5 cars! This is reality.

go on the comapny comp and find out how many p.o.'s are assigned to your district. minus detailed out/med/military leave/house mice. and truly see who is in the street.

DO IT NOW AND POST WHAT YOU KNOW. BEFORE DEPT. TAKES IT AWAY!

11/14/2005 04:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is it that the coppers who beef the most, do the least????

11/14/2005 04:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know for a fact but am not certain of the day, beat 1631 on midnights was sent to 011 and there were 5 that's FIVE garage burglaries on that beat overnight.

Not only do they take a car from 016 but they also have several 99 units on midnights. They are not going by senority. They just pick a beat car.

Our gang teams haven't worked in our district in over a YEAR.

Our tact teams have been detailed to 001 for the past few days.

Basically we are screwed. Plain and simple. There is no one to back you up. If there is, he's gonna be 20 blocks away.

11/14/2005 05:35:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hats off to the job well done by the 25th District Officers in spite of their cowardly Lt.

Lt, Sgt and team were about to execute a search warrant when shots were fired nearby. The officers quickly responded to the shots fired and were fired upon; they returned fire and struck the offender in the legs. Offender in custody, gun recovered, job well done.

A quick head count to ensure everyone was alright revealed a missing Lt. After several attempts to raise him on the radio, he finally answered up 15 min. later.

Apparently he got into a foot chase that took him two blocks west of where his team was involved in a shoot out. Seems he also failed to call in the foot chase; probably couldn't get in with all the radio traffic.

Well done guys, hopefully his clout will realize he is in over his head and he is a liability to his men

11/14/2005 06:38:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Like Ive said DO Nothing. If you dont respond 99 so what. Come up on the radio stating waiting for back up, your covered. Flood the alder idiots and media with phone calls and mail. Tell all our nieghbors whats going on. Have them call 911 for every and any little thing.

As for going to an FOP meeting. Give me a break. Do you know how many times Ive been told I was out of order. As for the pension... Take it, fuck this job and fuck this city. Theres nothing that we can do because we are DIVIDED. If we want to save the pension then we have to 1)stop the corruption and forgiving. 2) stop the retirees from voting on our contract. No offense to my retired bretheren but you figure it out.

Corruption spill it all out in the open. I am about what I know.

All I can say is....Leak everything and anything you can. The only thing that will weaken the fop and mayor is scandel after scandel. Marky boy is filling his deep pockets and those who get sucked in cant resist the extra $$$. I however will not fall victim to such slop as the flop.


As for those who still have a sense of right from wrong. Bring on the scandels.

11/14/2005 07:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Burglaries are up all over the city. But oh wait I cant prove that any more because the burglaries get misteriously re-classified as a CRIMINAL DAMAGE TO PROPERTY to show how well caps and the doc bullshit is working. I am sure glad I live in this great city. NOT.

All the media and A/G has to do is just look at one day of report writing let alone the A n A's to see the lieing. Come on Mr Fitzgerald what are you waiting for?

11/14/2005 07:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I loved seeing the news confrence after the two high profile cases in area 1 in which the Lt. was referring to at the podium. He said (talking about the 008 th district dime in which the finger was severed)this is a case were Caps has helped and solved this crime. I almost shit myself, Caps???? I know how it was solved and let me tell ya Craps hade absolutely nothing to do with it.
Our city is retarded and so is the media that lets those lies get strued about!

11/14/2005 09:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought when the dummcrats got out of the whitehouse(and stole all the pictures and furniture) that the Pubs would stop the funding of caps. I mean how ,many disricts have like 4 caps P.O.s who are fat little 3 year wonders eating all the free caps snacks and pop all day????? USELESS! And we are running 99 cars at night...keep up the good eating pigs.

11/14/2005 09:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is alderwoman Rugai sending out letters to all the scared citizens saying that the recent rash of armed and strong armed robb and burblaries are just a fluke and that she has been given assurances that 022 will get more P.O.'s and will not have down cars on midnights, when you get your letter and you live in beverly carry it with you to show the mutt trying to rob you

11/14/2005 09:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercy, mercy An increase of "GARAGE BURGLARIES" in the 16th Dst...what is this world coming to.
Families in the 16th dst. are huddling together each and every night in fear of some imaginary onslaught by roving bands of criminals...maybe if these 16th dst COPPERS stay on their beats and out of their houses during duty time, they just might solve some of these earth shaking,mind altering crimes. The patch on your shirt "CHICAGO POLICE" not ALBANY PARK POLICE, which means sometimes you might have to work somewhere else within the city beside sitting at home watching video on city time....makes you wonder how many of these complainters have file a grievance with FOP..hope they hurry running short of tissue and murine for my eyes

11/14/2005 09:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 022nd district is outrageous.
Armed robberies soared this year. Coppers families and neighbors are the victims.

The response has been pathetic and that's no error.

Rugai claims that becoming a training district shall solve the woes to some extent. I can't help thinking that she'd also be the last one to state that the "Emporer" is wearing no clothes, seeing Richie butt assed naked.

Will she demand that the FTOs and their new charges remain on their assigned beats ie. 2213, 2212...or will there be more units for Halsted and points east. We'll see.

P.S. White Hen stock up on pogey bait.

11/14/2005 10:00:00 AM  
Anonymous peter karl said...

"The Chicago Alternative Policing Strategy (CAPS) is great."

11/14/2005 10:06:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chicago needs a union to speak for the members.

Before that the members must unite behind a good representation and support it together.

We don't even vote. Shame on us.

It's all our own fault. We don't go to meetings, become involved, vote, we just complain. We're the bitches.

If we don't like it we should change it.

11/14/2005 10:14:00 AM  
Anonymous 50 more working daze said...

for those of you who were telling us not to beef and shut up and do our jobs

The city has no problem enforcing the contract when its to their benefit to do so.

For example an officer with 26 years on cant transfer and guarantee his shift for as long as 11 months or so in somme cases.

And to the officer who wants to know why those who beef the most do the least.......

Its because those who beef the most have had the most dept beef stuck forcefully in their moons.

In the last two and a half years since you got on the job and saved us, the dept hasnt had a chance to sodomize you yet.

When they do, and then dont even use KY jelly, how you feel about it.

Get a few soup stains on your tie and then you can talk

11/14/2005 12:45:00 PM  
Anonymous AREA 5 V/C said...

AREA 5 V/C said...
SHOOTING IN 025 LAST NIGHT. GREAT CREW OF COPPERS ALL WAS TEXTBOOK.
Thank you to all involved, Your the best! It's to bad the shitbag did not see the event horizon. (015)

11/14/2005 03:11:07 AM

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT. YOU LOOK AT THE NAMES OF THE COPPERS INVOLVED, YOU COULDN'T ASK FOR BETTER SUPPORT ON THE STREET. THE ENTIRE TEAM THAT WAS THERE, THE GANG AND TACT, AND THE BT. CAR ASSISTING ARE THE PICK OF THE LITTER IN 025. I WOULD NAME THEM ALL IF I KNEW SOMEONE WOULDN'T TRASH THEM FOR SOME SELFISH REASON.

11/14/2005 01:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Read This said...

For all you coppers living in 1631 bt I just talked to Alderman Banks to complain about bt cars being pulled out and he said this was the first his office has heard of it. You people complain and bitch but dont do anything about it. I called FOP and they said there is nothing they can do about it cause on sheets in district the bt cars are still there? Call Aldermans office and complain!!!!!

11/14/2005 02:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Bid Guy said...

To: Mr. Chicago Police

From: Everyone Else

The squad car may say Chicago Police but the beat tag and the hard won seniority rights bid says what district I work in. That is a matter of fact!

Too bad it isn't allowed for you to give up your contract rights because I would like to see you give up yours like you're advocating these other coppers doing. If you're so ballsy and can handle anything, let's see your name, pussy. Hide behind that white shirt and tell everyone else what to do, that's playing right into their hands.

What needs to be done is for everyone to unite, for whatever reason, and stop all of the nonsense that the dept keeps shoving down our throats. I advocate a "working police officer" rather than a pooch and any and all means of support must be given to them to stop the ass-rape that the dept and daley try everyday.

More and more units are being formed through the use of the "detail". What kind of nonsense is this? This is their way of creating units and avoiding the bid process, which was a hard-fought and still, often contentious, right. All of us should swamp the FOP with phone calls. THAT is how to get it started. Then, a sustained campaign of alertness for contract violations needs to be initiated. Keep filing those grievances. Whistle blowers are protected now!

As far as FOP goes, they're the only game in town. Use 'em and abuse 'em. Make them earn that CEO pay! They need to be held accountable and made to live up to their responsibility to serve their members.

11/14/2005 02:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to: 02:32.... either Banks has no idea what's going on, or he/his office is lying. Manpower reports are readily available, either from official sources w/i the Dept. or from other sources w/i Districts. And, remember when city pols asked for CPD staffing reports, and the CPD said, "we can't release that, it's confidential, the criminals would know where we are".......HA, HA, among all city jokes, doesn't that one take the cake?

11/14/2005 02:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Banks has been known to lie before. A couple of years ago (1996?) They tried to sneak in section 8, habitat for humanity by Hiawatha park. When the residents found out they screamed and had a meeting at his Office on Belmont. It was so packed that people had to stand outside. Then he had the nerve to say he knew nothing about it. He forgot that we all knew he was on the Zoning board and he was one of them who had to approve it.

11/14/2005 03:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rugai claims that 022 is at full strength it is actually 30 P.O.'s short not counting all the senior citizens on the medical yes there is a car downed every midnight with other cars 99. Call Rugai and demand police protection not lies

11/14/2005 03:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Full protection, aka CPD staffing: isn't it time that the city release the actual and total numbers re: staffing, i.e., how many officers are ACTUALLY PRESENT (minus medical, furlo, etc.), and not "assigned" (i.e., detailed out), to each unit, and then, which units are deployed in what part of the city, each shift, each day. Make it public!

11/14/2005 04:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to: 03:49, if Rugai really thinks that 022 is fully staffed, then either she is misinformed, or has no idea what's going on...

11/14/2005 04:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

11/14/2005 09:53:22 AM

I thought "Albany Park" was 017?

11/14/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thank god the coppers in 004 on midnights come home to hegwisch to sleep in the middle of their shift, otherwise you would never see a cop on 433

11/14/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what does that say about: 1) the on duty guys; 2) the off duty guys...is it the same in 022, 008, and 016?

11/14/2005 06:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and what about CAPS? I mean, hasn't it been a joke (and an insult to every taxpayer), from its inception, a Democratic politicians' dream (i.e.,federal money for posters, dinners, personnel to staff offices who schedule community marches, etc.), but a law enforcement professional's nightmare, i.e., after the community marches, then the shooting and dope dealing continues, and then what?......

11/14/2005 06:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and THE answer to THE questions: NO, the police cannot stop people from killing other people; NO, the police cannot stop the influx of drugs into this country; NO, the police cannot stop the influx of illegal immigrants into this country; NO, the police cannot control the possession of handguns/weapons in the hands of people in this country...having said that....will the politicians support, and the taxpayers pay, the HUGE cost associated with prison systems needed to house all of these mutts? I don't think so....so, Cline and Daley are wasting their time and energy...they should at least be honest with the public....

11/14/2005 07:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is for you to decide is Rugai being lied to by XXXXL phil or is she lying to us. Believe me she has enough "contacts" in 022 to know if it is fully staffed or not. Her promises about not having cars detailed out and being a training district we can wait and see

11/14/2005 07:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you are kidding, no?

11/14/2005 07:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wait, I just reviewed it....saying that Rugai knows what's going on (knowing EXACTLY what personnel are where and why) is a fantasy

11/14/2005 07:48:00 PM  
Anonymous The Department Sucks.. said...

I heard bt cars from 016 are only detailed to 011 or 15 for first 4 hours.....Thats how they get around putting cars in other districts. I didnt know about Alderman Banks, so hes a big bullshitter? Section 8 by Hiawatha huh? Great GOOD thing I called him today.....

11/15/2005 12:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SEND IN THOSE HARD CHARGERS FROM TRU!
THEY CLAIM POLICING THE AREA WITH MANY TRAFFIC TICKETS AND ANOV'S..........THEY SHOULD BE GIVEN A ROUND OF APPLAUSE.
NOT TO MENTION A SLAP UPSIDE THE HEAD................WANNA WRITE TICKETS AND TOW CARS THEN BECOME A TRAFFIC CAR OR A TROOPER.

11/15/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is it that no matter what the thread is, some goof turns it into ripping TRU & SOS? Do you really think it contributes anything to the discussion? If you got a problem with them, why don't you call them out when they are in your district? Otherwise go see Dr. Joel Kaplan for some penis enhancement.

11/15/2005 04:37:00 PM  
Anonymous TRU said...

Do you have Dr. Kaplan's phone number?

Is the procedure covered by our insurance plan?

11/15/2005 05:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I THOUGHT PENIS WAS SPELLED WITH A CAPITAL "p"

11/15/2005 06:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

would that dr be covered with hmo or ppo? ill await your response

11/15/2005 06:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Every night in Area 3 a bt car from 1st Watch is assigned to 011.
That's a car from 024,023,020,019.
It's listed in the CO book and copmes from Patrol HQ.

11/15/2005 09:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Burglaries are up in the 12th district because our crack burglary mission officers on 2nd watch are never around when they take place. Their Sgt "the Ripper" aka Karl Maldon lets them go home early every day, and when they do catch one it's because some old timer gives it to them. yeah lets keep putting guys like that out there who drive around and say its "dead out here" (tom) some crack burglary team

YOU GUYS SUCK!

11/15/2005 10:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The cars on Midmights being detailed are there for only 4 hrs. This is how the Dept. gets around the Contract, not that it would stop them from violating it anyways.

11/16/2005 12:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought the burglary guys from 012 are working on that condo burglary pattern in the West Loop? They meet up with the with some Property Det's every morning at Area 4 and then they all launch out in covert cars. I know that's a fact because I see them all in the Area every morning. Don't know any of them, never worked with them, but get your facts straight before you start making shit up.

11/17/2005 06:30:00 PM  

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