Lawyers
This is the only answer if you are involved in any sort of shooting or Use of Force where a CL/CR number will be obtained:
- The hearing Friday was called to determine if prosecutors can use statements Van Dyke made to police union representatives after the shooting.
Judge Vincent Gaughan granted prosecutors that access, largely because one of the union representatives had already spoken to FBI investigators as well as a grand jury about what Van Dyke told him.
"The door is open, and it can never be shut," Gaughan said.
Illinois law holds that union agents cannot be compelled to disclose information they get from union members except under certain circumstances. But prosecutors wanted to use statements made by Van Dyke himself, not the union representatives who interviewed him, complicating the legal issue.
Van Dyke's attorneys admitted as much in a motion filed last month, stating that they have found no Illinois case law that is "directly on point with the situation presented here."
This case has drilled so many holes in Garrity protections, we're surprised the National Lodges haven't stepped in at some point to straighten out the half-assed way things are done here lest it endangers national precedent. Detective interviews ruled voluntary and not "under duress." Conversations with Union Representation admitted into Court proceedings.
Guess what? You cannot rely on your union representation to protect your Rights any more. The only sure-fire way to keep your Rights as an American citizen is a lawyer. And we dislike lawyers...intensely. But anything you tell a lawyer is privileged and will have a very hard time being used against you short of an actual conspiracy involving the lawyer himself/herself.
We have no idea what the FOP's plan is, but having a lawyer on call 24/7/365 is an immediate and absolute necessity from this point forward. Additionally, each and every Contract protection involving interviews MUST BE DEFENDED and STRENGTHENED especially in the face of Rahm's attempting to gut them.
Guess what? You cannot rely on your union representation to protect your Rights any more. The only sure-fire way to keep your Rights as an American citizen is a lawyer. And we dislike lawyers...intensely. But anything you tell a lawyer is privileged and will have a very hard time being used against you short of an actual conspiracy involving the lawyer himself/herself.
We have no idea what the FOP's plan is, but having a lawyer on call 24/7/365 is an immediate and absolute necessity from this point forward. Additionally, each and every Contract protection involving interviews MUST BE DEFENDED and STRENGTHENED especially in the face of Rahm's attempting to gut them.
Labels: FOP, info for the police
posted by SCC at 12:03 AM
49 Comments:
Sgts union has lawyers not field reps when involved in shootings .
"And we dislike lawyers...intensely."
Make sure you tell Dan Herbert and the FOP Lawyers representing you at your next beef your intense dislike for them.
All Lawyer suck until you need one right?
I hope that Van Dyke's lawyers are screaming and appealing all this crud.
Get every wrong, indefensible piece of prosecutorial misconduct on the record.
Appeal it all. All the way to SCOTUS if necessary.
Build a case for mistrial, just in case.
If he doesn't win outright, having his conviction vacated in a mistrial could get him a second chance.
FOP lawyers play both sides of the fence. I found that out the hard way.
Sometimes we want to live in the past, and that can be dangerous. Though on some occasions we can learn from it.The days of the State's Attorney and Police working as a "Team" against Bad Guys, are long gone! Today the S.A. believes the defendant, not YOU. Cases are tossed regularly, because there is no video. What YOU say is of little value these days. So here is a little history, up until Jodie Weiss, when you were involved in a situation that entailed YOU and a dead offender/citizen, a round table was convened. The ASA, IAD, a Street Deputy, Medical Examiner's Investigator, Homicide Detective, and others, all sat in on this and the involved officer told his/her story. This INSANITY went on For Decades! Not until Supt. Weiss, an outsider looking in, said; how can you have an officer, without Miranda protections tell his story in front of a Prosecutor, who might based upon what is said, decide to prosecute the officer? Also for decades, the FOP Refused to Send cops an attorney to assist officers in an OIS or death investigations involving police. I can still recall FOP representatives coming to one of my roll calls and telling the officers, "You don't need a lawyer that early in the investigation. We will send you a representative from "Da" Hall". This is the bullshit that going back to the Donahue Administration at FOP was regularly fed to coppers. Meanwhile, those of us who were Sergeants had an attorney on call 24/7. When the shit hits the fan, no matter whether you were Right or Wrong; YOU ARE THE ACCUSED! My last incident in the Roundtable Era, had my actions and the officer with me as totally righteous. However, a shaky political Hack Lieutenant, Joey "G", who used to brag about his cousin in Da Outfit took out a CR, before we even reached the Area at Harrison and Kedzie! When things are swirling around you, and you yourself are hurt; it is very difficult to think clearly and regurgitate the General Orders. Fortunately for us, our Sgts. Union Lawyer arrived and took over. The incompetent Chief of Detectives, Ivanjack, who had fucked up the Ryan Harris case was backed off by the young Union attorney, and we walked out of there. Lawsuits followed, but Not criminal prosecution. Today, YOU have the benefit of an attorney, AND BELIEVE ME, THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE BLESSING! Please, understand clearly, I am not wasting our time with a War Story. My intent is to share with you a lesson learned by a guy who had several years as a Sgt. when this occurred. Detectives I had worked with when we were P.O.s, would not look me straight in the face. When You are the Accused, You have very few friends in the police department. 1. Say nothing to anyone, but your attorney. Do not speak to the FOP about the incident, unless you want them to get you an ambulance, or more attorneys. Speak only to your attorney in a private area. 2. Get off of Facebook today, and that applies to your wife/partner. Photos of Van Dyke from his wife's Facebook were printed in EUROPE by the British Daily Mail! 3.. If you hurt or feel injured, in any way, including injuries that can only be seen with an MRI; demand to be taken to a hospital. Statements will not be taken if you are injured and under medical care. However, talk to medical staff only on matters related to your ailment. Many nurses are bitter coppers' ex-wives, and many Physicians hate police. They are supposed to keep what you say confidential; but that can be violated. They can give up the results of your blood alcohol level, so confidentiality is clearly limited. Also there is a genuine attitude with a lot of cops who think they are innocent, to tell their story for some sense of sympathy. GUILT OR INNOCENCE IS DETERMINED BY A COURT. THE "TRUTH" IS TO BE DETERMINED; NOT BY YOU! 4. Always remember: "We are prisoners of what we SAY, and Masters of what we Do Not Say. Stay safe, You have few friends these days. But then again, Rahm and the ACLU have your back! Baby "G"
What has our new President been doing? The same nonsense on the web site as our previous president posted. The infrequent appearances on media such as WGN, WTTW. Comments on the SCC Blog which indicate that attending golf outings seems to be the priority of our fop officers when the rank&file seek answers from our "leaders." Kevin Graham, time to get to work!
Retired .38 spl +P
Anonymous said...
"And we dislike lawyers...intensely."
Make sure you tell Dan Herbert and the FOP Lawyers representing you at your next beef your intense dislike for them.
All Lawyer suck until you need one right?
===========
Exactly. Good to know you can read and understand what we've been saying for 12 years now.
Chicago Values
Protect the killing community
Protect the illegals
Fuck the Police ...
Fetal on the job is good ..
Fetal on being Fucked regularly you better get too work !
Baby G
I don't even bother to try to read what you post anymore. I'm sure others probably have the same sentiment. Think you can figure out why? Hint: Has nothing to do with subject matter.
This is sound advice in the current climate:
When You are the Accused, You have very few friends in the police department.
1. Say nothing to anyone, but your attorney. Do not speak to the FOP about the incident, unless you want them to get you an ambulance, or more attorneys. Speak only to your attorney in a private area.
2. Get off of Facebook today, and that applies to your wife/partner. Photos of Van Dyke from his wife's Facebook were printed in EUROPE by the British Daily Mail!
3. If you hurt or feel injured, in any way, including injuries that can only be seen with an MRI; demand to be taken to a hospital. Statements will not be taken if you are injured and under medical care. However, talk to medical staff only on matters related to your ailment. Many nurses are bitter coppers' ex-wives, and many Physicians hate police. They are supposed to keep what you say confidential; but that can be violated. They can give up the results of your blood alcohol level, so confidentiality is clearly limited. Also there is a genuine attitude with a lot of cops who think they are innocent, to tell their story for some sense of sympathy. GUILT OR INNOCENCE IS DETERMINED BY A COURT. THE "TRUTH" IS TO BE DETERMINED; NOT BY YOU!
4. Always remember: "We are prisoners of what we SAY, and Masters of what we Do Not Say. Stay safe, You have few friends these days. But then again, Rahm and the ACLU have your back!
Baby G is absolutely correct. Say nothing without a lawyer.
Don't know how many of you have been on shooting scenes recently, but the union reps don't ask you any details about the shooting anymore as they shouldn't. They are there only to advise you of what to expect, make sure you are taken care of, and to make sure your contractual rights aren't trampled on.
A lawyer on scene is not a good idea for anyone. Do you want to make your statement immediately as a witness officer or do you want to have time to let the adrenaline stop so that you are clear-headed? If a lawyer is on scene, that isn't going to happen. You can bet your sweet asses that IPRA, COPA, or whatever the fuck they want to call themselves will demand your statement in exactly two-hours per the contract. If they are not on scene, you can lawyer up until they get there.
How about this? Shooters and/or witnesses should immediately demand EMS and get transported to the hospital. This is a traumatic incident for even the most grizzled vet. Get medicated and nobody is going to talk to you. If they do, it is unlikely that anything you say would carry any weight in their drug induced state.
DO not talk to Detectives!
If you do it will be deemed voluntary.
Ask for an actual written order to answer questions witnessed by the FLOP rep and signed.
Make the Detective read writes to you! Dont fall for that bullshit about GARRITY.
keep track of every white shirt who wanders up to you and talks
Go to the hospital ASAP.
What am I paying union dues for seems like we can't get answers they can't
Protect us etc wtf am I paying for maybe I need to leave the union and save my self some money
Not a cop, but why not just plead the 5th?
Well sounds like the attorneys need to file for that to be inadmissible in court and not allow it into evidence. the judge has to follow previous court rulings and just can't make up his own laws and must protect his constitutional rights. Garrity statements are often given in administrative capacity to see if you violated dept policy not for criminal, this protection stems up from the 5th Admentment of the United States constitution , which declares that a government can't compel a person to be a witness against himself.
Fall out on scene for chest pains, get transported to the hospital, fall asleep due to the drugs they give you, and conveniently wake up when your counsel arrives to answer questions.
Take it from an officer myself that was involved in an incident I am mediatel take it from an officer myself that was involved in an incident I immediately requested an ambulance was taken to the hospital he had chest pain's and anxiety I could not even speak with doctors came around me I asked for no visitors absolutely no visitors no police just my family and a lawyer and let me tell you something everything worked out OK because I had time to think about what happened so I could tell exactly the proper view of what happened and my answer if you talk to any of the bosses who you think are cool and have your back you're totally insane that night for turning your back so quick you will be totally devastated along with your family and then if the news media sorry not if but when City Hall gives it to the news media as quick as they can they will continuously report this honestly 24 hours a day seven days a week about the bad police officer that's the way it is in this country that's the way it is in this corrupt city in order to take the heat off of the politicians the along with your family and then if the news media sorry not if but when City Hall gives it to the news media as quick as they can they will continuously report this honestly 24 hours a day seven days a week about the bad police officer that's the way it is in this country that's the way it is in this corrupt city in order to take the heat off of the politicians then y put it all on the police officers.
Do you want to play the game do you want to play the real police for your boss the goofy looking people The crazy ideas they have then you will lose everything it's not worth it I go to rollcall I see the bosses I see the so-called commanders walking around cracking stupid jokes I smile laugh not laughing with them I'm laughing at them don't respect any of them simple as that. The way to look at them as they have the right connections to wear that uniform and to basically steal from the pension fund at the gold braid rate!
Heed the words of Baby G and speak ONLY to your lawyer. You are coppers in a city where the media and courts have an extreme dislike for the police. ♠️
OTR: Today being Bud Billiken Parade day and after watching local news the last couple of days something has become obvious. For years before the South Side Irish Parade or Pride Parade you were constantly warned that officials (police I guess) wouldn't tolerate alcohol use on the parade route. Parade goers were warned that violaters would either be cited or arrested if found with open alcohol on or around the parade route and fines in th amounts of hundreds of dollars would be assessed. For some reason these warnings are noticeably absent on Billiken Day.
I know it's nothing new, as a young tac in the late 70's and early 80's bosses in the old 2nd District were telling the Roll Calls that this was a family day and we better not be fucking with the people. Then you'd be on Western Ave and they'd be saying you better lock up anybody you saw drinking a cup of beer.
Just like Toni, Rahm and the rest of the Democrats, rules only apply when they suit us. Like immigration, taxes on beverages.......
Hypocrisy of this City hasn't changed in generations.
The Union is their "to protect", maybe enforce, the contract NOT You!
If you want someone to protect you. You have to pay for an attorney.
Hey 1:54 AM, Right On!!! All you people rare ad that and remember it, it could save you and your family one day.....
The last several regimes at FOP have had no idea what to do at a police involved shooting. Earlier regimes are to hard headed to train the incoming regimes so for about at least 10 years the FOP has sat there with dicks in hand at the shootings. Remember any time your gun is fired just shutup.Don't count on FOP to know what is is doing.
Why did the union rep tell anybody what jvd said???
When laws and union Contracts are disregarded, violated and overruled either by the mayor or a court, then what good is a union.
See the subtle point they're making?
This case has certainly become a circus of nitwits by design to fool everyone at every level and still made many a sizeable bundle.
It's going nowhere, no matter what rock they turnover next and it started with a quick settling for $6 million, KNOWING more trouble was going to come. (Why doesn't Rahm drop quick money like that on pension obligation debt?)
Gaughan is t worried about his job, but Rahm is certainly worried about his.
Not only did he open the door, he put a wedge in to keep it open for the vermin.
Rahm is edging towards his FOP Discipline overhaul and strict reform mandate to appease the community, I'd expect theres no settled Contract before Feb 2019.
No go out an get some ISR's by any means possible.
Baby "G". Well said. Thanks.
GUILT OR INNOCENCE IS DETERMINED BY A COURT. THE "TRUTH" IS TO BE DETERMINED; NOT BY YOU! 4. Always remember: "We are prisoners of what we SAY, and Masters of what we Do Not Say. Stay safe, You have few friends these days. But then again, Rahm and the ACLU have your back! Baby "G"
8/12/2017 01:54:00 AM
This has to be the best post Baby G has rambled off too date!! All you super coppers should read it then re-read again and let it sink in for a minute.
Baby G didn't mention the jackasses who arrive at the scene and or stand in the station lobby and start questioning the officer involved about what happened. They want their own personal explanation of events. These hackasses will tell the court what you told them the minute they get a subpoena.
Don't ask and don't tell.
I can't write this enough. FOP has to get in front of this and after talking to lawyers both defense and prosecutors, check with New York and LL police, maybe even the FBI and examine their policies and procedures and come out with some paper on it. Maybe a procedure to be followed
Maybe you should read what Dan Herbert writes in the FOP news letter?
Great artical but with judges ruling as of this Friday the entire writing by Herbert is just AIR
Only one you speak with after a shooting is your attorney.
And when the Department want to interview you. Excuse yourself to a hospital for
Medical review for post traumatic stress......
Do interview in nice office after your stress and blood pressure comes back to normal.....
Why?
They are now using the conflicting statements from original incident interview as grounds
to fire officers.
So speak now or later. You choose your course and outcome?
"Anonymous Anonymous said...
FOP lawyers play both sides of the fence. I found that out the hard way.
8/12/2017 01:34:00 AM"
If you need a lawyer hire your own!! Fuck the FOP!!
They don't give a rats ass about you!!
You get fired, so what?? Someone takes your place and pay his dues to the fucking goons!!
Retired suburban P.O. here. FYI I.C.O.P.S. was my union and they have a Business Agent and a Lawyer on call all 24/7/364. They are a phone call away. Its time for your F.O.P. to wake up and protect all members. They should have 3 on call in each section of the city. 1 North, 1 Center and 1 South. Its a new ballgame guys and you need protection.
It's like trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Well sounds like the attorneys need to file for that to be inadmissible in court and not allow it into evidence. the judge has to follow previous court rulings and just can't make up his own laws and must protect his constitutional rights. Garrity statements are often given in administrative capacity to see if you violated dept policy not for criminal, this protection stems up from the 5th Admentment of the United States constitution , which declares that a government can't compel a person to be a witness against himself.
I'm sure Herbert argued that this should be inadmissible, but the judge decided it could be. I'm sure he researched it before he made his decision and if not it will get overturned on appeal. The judge has made a few controversial decisions against VanDyke and they all seem to be an exemption of previous law. He can't get a break or a fair trial
Baby G
I don't even bother to try to read what you post anymore. I'm sure others probably have the same sentiment. Think you can figure out why? Hint: Has nothing to do with subject matter
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I don't want this to turn into a bs rant but I will put my name to this rant STEFANEC and I am not hard to find,
Baby g or as we who have worked for him called him sarge or leader of armed men and women , no i do not kiss baby g's ass because I like him but the man backs his words with action. Baby G was there when I had a duty related shooting . he didn't desert me as many white shirts would have run for the hills. He was there when I begged FOP to provide a lawyer for coppers involved in a shooting just to be told that we had a hand shake agreement with the city. If baby g was back again , his roll calls would be packed. And those of us that had the privilege to work for him are and always will be my brothers and sisters (5th watch ) hunters of criminals, some of the bravest men and women I was honored to work with !
When you are involved in an incident, NO PO or 'boss' is your friend. Remember that. Only talk to your attorney and tell all other nosy POs to shut it.
Tom 365 Hagan
I have a special practice.....
I work for one client, the CPD
I wouldn't need a lawyer if it wasn't because of a lawyer. Right councilor
Baby G
I don't even bother to try to read what you post anymore. I'm sure others probably have the same sentiment. Think you can figure out why? Hint: Has nothing to do with subject matter.
8/12/2017 05:38:00 AM
Well then, you are fucking stupid. I do no share your sentiment. I read every word Baby G writes because he makes sense. And, no, I am not Baby G or his family and I would not know Baby G if he were standing next to me at roll call.
1/16/29+1
"And those of us that had the privilege to work for him are and always will be my brothers and sisters (5th watch ) hunters of criminals, some of the bravest men and women I was honored to work with !"
You had a good post until this self aggrandizement. Get over yourself Stef.
IN actuality Dan Herbert didn't argue at all . He had another attorney cross examine both Marlon and Pat Camden . Pat Camden threw Everyone under the bus as Herbert just sat there drinking his coffee . Over his head ugh just a little bit! One of Bella and Deans guy !!!!
I believe someone made poor choices as far as who is representing him goes. If my freedom is on the line, I'm going to get an experienced criminal defense attorney, not some FOP hack who make his bones babysitting IAD interviews. He will pay for the counsel's on the job training with days in jail. Sad.
To the imbecile who asks why he pays union dues at all.
Simple, you get legal defense. $24 a year comes out of your dues money. That's a whopping 480 bucks over a twent year period. Need a lawyer once during that time and you're well ahead of the game.
Go ahead and quit the union. You'll show them. You'll still have to make a fair share payment and then get legal defense on your own for about $300 a year if you're smart enough to buy it. I'm betting you're not.
Well sounds like the attorneys need to file for that to be inadmissible in court and not allow it into evidence. the judge has to follow previous court rulings and just can't make up his own laws and must protect his constitutional rights. Garrity statements are often given in administrative capacity to see if you violated dept policy not for criminal, this protection stems up from the 5th Admentment of the United States constitution , which declares that a government can't compel a person to be a witness against himself.
I'm sure Herbert argued that this should be inadmissible, but the judge decided it could be. I'm sure he researched it before he made his decision and if not it will get overturned on appeal. The judge has made a few controversial decisions against VanDyke and they all seem to be an exemption of previous law. He can't get a break or a fair trial
++++++++
He can and he did. It's called legal precedence and this judge just set a new one in regards to Garrity statements. The judge said 'this is opening a door that can never be closed,' or something to that effect. I took that to mean he has willfully disregarded the legal precedence and legal protections/purposes for Garrity statements, thereby setting a new legal precedence that he clearly foresees being referenced to knock police officers around the country in future cases. Can you say megalomaniac?
Takeaway: law, legal precedence, fair and equal treatment, impartiality all mean nothing. The JVD case is a a perfect example of the perversion of our legal system. The individually assessed charges of aggbat for each bullet should be one shining example for you disbelievers. It is different to say "I feel JVD is guilty" versus "JVD is being railroaded in unprecedented ways." If you can say, with a straight face, that this isn't fucked up, you are a sick and extremely stupid person.
I don't do shit at work anymore. I'll back up fellow officers and help old people and animals. I'm able to shut off my adrenaline response to hearing loud reports and seeing people running. I'm concerned that I'll be caught in the middle of a shooting and respond or some other nonsense. If it comes to that, I'm thinking medical route followed by a talk to my own attorney. I had a shooting before and it was a cold, lonely process. The dicks were indifferent and I was forced to give statements to the WC, I think field LT. I didn't want to tall at the time because shit just happened so fast and I didn't trust anyone but I knew I'd be fired if I refused and I figured it would look like I was trying to cover up. I was asked how many rounds I fired. I had no clue but told a number. Later I was told how many rounds I fired and I was right. I was worried they would think I was purposefully counting rounds. All I know is that we fire when we feel it's necessary and these people are no saints. No, they don't deserve to die for no reasons, and they're not. Laquaon tried to slash a passerby's throat before police intervention, slashed at squad cars and refused to drop deadly weapon. He got the resolution society needed, irrespective of his race. Deep down, everyone knows this. Our job is a bullshit circus
I sound like Baby G now. .
Anonymous Anonymous said...
IN actuality Dan Herbert didn't argue at all . He had another attorney cross examine both Marlon and Pat Camden . Pat Camden threw Everyone under the bus as Herbert just sat there drinking his coffee . Over his head ugh just a little bit! One of Bella and Deans guy !!!!
8/13/2017 03:13:00 AM
In actuality, this should have never happened if the lawyer representing Kato, Harvey and Camden told these three to keep their mouths shut and not testify before the grand jury. Guess what, all "privileged" conversations became unprivileged the minute they discussed these interactions to the grand jury. Guess McKay and Sexton aren't the top-notched attorneys everyone would like you to believe they are. You my friend are a dummy and I certainly hope you are not someone people listen to because you suck.
WHY is the FOP getting any $$$ from its constituents? Or should I say politically expedient funding sources.
Some lawyers our our friends, others aren't. In one way they are like us. No one likes them until they need them.
Repeat after me, when ANYONE asks you a question from ANY incident you are questioned about.
"I NEED TO GO TO A HOSPITAL, DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME (Det, Sgt, Lt, Capt, Commander, DEPUTY CHIEF)!
You have just been involved in a MAJOR possibly life altering event or incident. Do you and your family a favor, seek medical attention IMMEDIATELY.
8/13/2017 03:13:00 AM
In actuality, this should have never happened if the lawyer representing Kato, Harvey and Camden told these three to keep their mouths shut and not testify before the grand jury. Guess what, all "privileged" conversations became unprivileged the minute they discussed these interactions to the grand jury. Guess McKay and Sexton aren't the top-notched attorneys everyone would like you to believe they are. You my friend are a dummy and I certainly hope you are not someone people listen to because you suck.
Couldn't agree more. Problem is sometimes lawyers and their clients worry more about the perception and what people think if you do not testify, but legally and in the long run it's the right thing to do. Plus you can never get in trouble if you can't recall or remember something. We had a public official in Chicago who can never recall anything when forced to testify
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