A Strange Rumor
This is what passes (passed?) for firearms training?
Retired Firearms Instructor here: a YUGE problem with Department training has been the inconsistency of training by various sections.
Around 2010, the Dept. had been running the In-Service Firearms Training Program. As was my custom, at the conclusion of the training I would debrief the officers in order to allow them to provide input on their experience.
One officer stated "This training is different than what they taught us at Near North (a CPD training site on Larrabee St. where force-on-force training was conducted with role players using training pistols that fired paint marking cartridges). I asked "How so?" He replied, "They told us when confronted with an immediate threat, as you draw your weapon, begin firing as soon as the muzzle clears the holster, and "walk" your rounds up until you are hitting the target."
I asked him to repeat this, as I was not sure I had heard correctly. He repeated this statement and added "You can see paint marks on the floor where the rounds were hitting".
To be clear, the training described by this officer is completely contrary to the Dept.'s Firearms Training lesson plan. Range Instructors have always emphasized that if Deadly Force is warranted, obtaining a sight picture is critical so that accurate fire can be delivered to quickly neutralize the threat, as well as minimizing the threat to others, as it is Dept. policy that the minimum amount of force should be used to obtain a lawful objective, (i.e., gain compliance over the subject/offender).
I did not verify that what the officer said was accurate or true, but during my time as an Instructor I was aware of several instances where training at various sites was not in accordance with what was being taught at the Academy. The story I provided is the most egregious example of supposed "training" I was aware of.
Labels: rumors
posted by SCC at 12:03 AM
48 Comments:
We got our asses handed to us tonight. Thank you brass.
Is ILETSB allowed to audit police trainings? I never heard of that during any of my firearm trainings or qualifications. I am sure that no other department or academy is teaching to fire before you have the muzzled aimed and pointed at what you plan to shoot, kill or destroy.
I came through 10+ years ago and we were told two different things at the range and TTU.
I vaguely recall this being said in a training setting once. Idk if it was "official" . The concept was simple, shoot as you come up to center target, hoping to startle and or hit the target from the bottom up. If you recall JH aka sgt hambone, aka Mr trap genius, aka the ponytail in boots, from 189, he loved and allegedly lived by this training theory. Claiming to have made use of it atleast once, and trained regulary with it. Seemed sloppy and dangerous,where you could easily self inflict out of the holster. Also seemed like some made up tv crap. But then again, Hambone was a legend in his own mind.
Sounds like firearm handling, hoodrat style.
Sounds like bulls$&t someone taught themselves playing video games.
Come on, I’m still on the job. We were trained, I remember specifically if in a lethal force situation to,” make sure the mf’er isn’t alive to sue you. That’s how the van dyke generation was trained . Snelling was a gym instructor at the time.
When I did carbine training, the instructor told us 'it doesn't matter if he is down, keep shooting to "nail the coffin shut"'
He was former military
That's fine for Iraq
But rifle rounds and curbs, streets & concrete.....
I recall the training mentioned here, but I remember it differently. The point isn't to shoot as soon as you clear the holster, hitting the ground and everything between you and the target. It was to shoot as soon as your gun is pointed at the offender, regardless of where on their body it is pointed. Don't wait to be pointed at center mass and looking down your sights. Start shooting the legs and anything else as you come up to center mass. It was about getting shots downrange as quickly as possible, not about lining up the perfect shot. I believe it was specifically for scenarios where you're taking fire. The way it was presented in this comment sounds ridiculous, but it's actually a great idea. I think that was the same training where they had you shoot from a seated position, as if you were taking fire while in your car and needed to shoot back. I think it was all done with simunitions rounds. Realistically, you're not going to take that long to get on target, so I don't know who was shooting the floor multiple times. Either the original commenter remembered it differently, or the instructor they had taught it differently.
It is so off the wall that it is probably true
Civilian here. I had a former military instructor tell me once that technique might work for small revolvers, like a .38 snubbie, where its sometimes difficult to get a good sight picture. But I've never seen the technique taught officially, especially with modern pistols with good sights. We were taught to target center mass.
The instructors at Near North did have a different take on firearms training.
Fun times nonetheless.
This is absolutely true and was taught to us in the 2016 classes at Near North. Can't confirm it's still being taught, but I say with 100% certainty this is what they told us then.
Bullshit
And Snelling was the Dept's expert on Use of Force.
We got our asses handed to us tonight??? Hahah. Either you have never seen a large protest or you weren’t around in 2020. In 2020 we got our asses handed to us. Tonight was a large protest with a few morons who wanted to try to clash and a few who painted some squad cars.. that’s about it. You have no idea what getting your asses handed to you until you were downtown in 2020.. having worked many protests, tonight was pretty run of the mill for a group of 3-4k that showed up.
Firearms training has always been substandard.
Only required to shoot once a year on a 30 round course?
This is true with most of the training.
wasn't near north that week long terrorism training? I missed that
The only times I've heard of walking rounds to the target is with automatic fire... Like a SAW or a 240 or a MaDeuce...
The instructor probably found an ancient USMC training manual, that taught walking your rounds from the ground onto a target, it was supposed to frighten the enemy so they wouldn't react quickly enough to return fire. Good to know thats an approved technique for CPD
This is of course insane...and very very dangerous. There's a chance your 9mm (or .38 Spl+P) round will go through wooden and vinyl floors. To start pulling the trigger without being on target violates 2 of the cardinal safety rules. (I know Sgt. Hamilton was a fan of "point shooting" but that technique is fudd-lore and that guy was always full of BS.)
We have red-dot optics on pistols now as well as plenty of books and free videos on combat pistol shooting so there's no excuse to be utilizing dangerous and unproven techniques or a ghetto spray-and-pray mentality. A police officer is responsible for every round that exits his or her muzzle.
I remember this from the academy. If your going to shoot start pulling the trigger as the firearm is being raised. Entered academy fall of 99. The Boone show, many of you remember.
I have used that technique to get on target but I was using a M249 squad fully auto machine gun.
5-6 rounds in that cylinder.
Ya gonna piss away even 1 into the ground?
Actually is not BS. Heard the same thing when I went through carbine training nearly 15 years ago. Worded differently but same message.
I agree here. I was trained differently in every LE academy(2 IL LE academies) and Military training I had. While in the Army, I went to a shooting school in North Carolina where they taught you do not need a perfect sight picture to neutralize your threat. If you were using your pistol your rifle went down and you had to transition quickly to your pistol and you may not be able to obtain the perfect sight picture. We trained a lot on reflexive and front sight post shooting and transition drills from rifle to pistol. So I do understand the thought process but in today’s age of BWC, media and liberals, being able to articulate the shooting process and why is very important.
Dear Firearms Instructor
Prior to COVID we had a class at the Academy where the role player drew a gun. We were drilled to draw our firearm while moving backward. When I asked the instructor about this he stated “Time Distance Shielding” was why it is now the norm. Like the whole department the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, or in this case teaching
This doesn’t surprise me one bit. When I was on SWAT we would use near north for training on occasion. I would watch what the TTU was teaching to the plain clothes police. I would shake my head at some of the outdated tactics they were teaching. I asked my Lt, WG at the time, why are we not all on the same page, why aren’t they learning the same tactics we use, this would be very beneficial for a active shooter incident, we would ultimately have to use patrol to assist use, that’s messed up if they don’t know our tactics. Lt WG said that’s above his pay grade… Lt. WG went on to be the chief of Patrol and nothing changed. I always said, SWAT officers should rotate out of the team every so often to teach at the range and TTU for consistency and avoid swat officer burnout.
It is taught in military CQB as part of “transition drill” if your rifle goes down and your enemy is coming at you. You are taught to shoot when the gun is level between you and someone rushing you. Clear holster, level weapon, once your second hand is on the weapon and you are bringing the weapon up, you fire. It isn’t a cowboy thing. It is an emergency thing.
"I had a former military instructor tell me once that technique might work for small revolvers, like a .38 snubbie"
Run Forrest Run!!
Go to Gunsite and get some REAL training.
I saw something similar to this technique described in an article about the Bernard Goetz subway shooting. It said he deliberately started squeezing the trigger as he was pulling the gun, and by doing this was able to quickly hit multiple targets in sequence. It must have worked for him, since I believe 4 of his 5 shots immobilized 4 attackers.
TTU people were always the biggest fucking losers on the department. They still fuck around and earn a paycheck while being the worst tactics people employed in the nation, legit embarrassments. Combine them with the range instructors and well I’m surprised coppers ever get lethal hits on assailants.
That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard and totally doesn't make sense. Maybe in the movies it will work bec it looks good to be bad ass. Even in the wild wild west (Late 1800's) quick draw is you draw and shoot waist level but pointing down the target. Who ever taught that big dummy to shoot is an IDIOT.
I heard of this and As far as I know this technique was meant for a DO with a long trigger pull. Still its ridiculous.
I have taken the training at near north & no such training to begin shooting as soon as you pull your gun out of holster.. it’s always been draw your weapon acquire your sight picture and shoot at the squeeze the trigger. Every round that comes out of your firearm has a lawyer’s name on it.
You're making too much sense ! That's not a part of the departments mantra these days ! The clowns are running the circus !
We were taught to start to pull the trigger as we presented to the target. So the round was discharging as our arms got fully extended
I entered the academy in 1998. I do not ever recall being taught to shoot as the firearm was being drawn so that rounds would start going up the sidewalk, up the legs, and finally stopping center mass. This violates rules: finger off trigger until on target, don't shoot at what you don't want to destroy (not out to destroy sidewalks or shoot people in the legs), and knowing what's beyond your target (ie, can't predict direction of ricochets). This idea doesn't make sense and I've been there in an OIS.
I do remember an instructor at Near North saying keep your finger off the trigger while drawing the firearm because it's happened in the past that rounds went up the sidewalk.
Not an instructor but have almost 20 years on the street. It's interesting the answers you get when you ask "instructors" their experience with what they are teaching. Reading, studying and teaching and not quite a match for real life experience.
What copper isn't full of some BS? Hamilton was not "always full of bs" as you say, no more than anyone else at a minimum and he did alot of good police work. There weren't "optics" and free videos 15- 20 years ago. And actually "point-shooting" is a good technique at short distances if you practice and get good at it. It's not the only good system but you have to find what works for you. FBI statistics on OIS shows we miss our targets alot. When you see a firearm pointed in your direction or about to be pointed in your direction, things happen very quickly as you think you, your partner or an innocent are about to die Training takes over so hopefully every officer is ready when that day comes because in Chicago, as evidenced the past few years, that day had come for alot of our colleagues.
Hopefully that means to make sure your shots are center mass and permanently stop the threat. It doesn't mean to keep shooting after the threat is over.
Boone didn't say that. How are you going to get rounds on the paper to pass quals if you are shooting at the ground, then the bottom of the paper, and then center mass? Especially when you are told to fire only two rounds by the instructor?
How are you going to put two rounds center mass when "the [paper] target turns" if you are shooting as you draw? This doesn't make sense. Do you think when your life is about to be over because some sh#thead is about to shoot you that you will resort to some other methods that you didn't train on?
Name or cite the article. Otherwise I call BS.
Point-shooting is proven. It works at close range as long as you train or practice it.
I think they are confusing a FBI study that ended up banning the cross draw.Because the study found that in a quick draw.the first bullet often hit between the shooter and target.And at least in a straight draw the bullet was traveling at the target.Sounds like they are missing the point of the study?
It’s referred to as firing from center press. The original commenter described it incorrectly or was taught it incorrectly. The method is used strictly at close range. It is used in confined spaces in close proximity to a threat or if one anticipates proximity to a threat. In searching and approaching an area where an officer becomes susceptible to physical attack because they cannot immediately identify if a person is present, the firearm is retracted from low or high ready into center press, where the shooter can maintain the firearm in an attack and still deliver accurate fire in close quarters. When drawing from the holster to center press, the dominant elbow is immediately dropped once the muzzle clears the holster, causing the muzzle to point at the threat. Then and only then is the finger on the trigger and gun discharged.
Can you cite the article?
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