Monday, November 28, 2005

Carry Off Duty?

We spent a few hours last night doing prep work on a few threads to have them ready to go in the event that we were short ideas later. Someone sent us the "Carry off duty" article yesterday and we were going to hold it for tonight, but then the Times ran it and everyone is talking about it in the SOS/TRU thread. So here is tonight's post a few hours early.

From a frequent reader/contributor, jurisdictions across the country are beginning to rethink permitting their officers to carry off duty following a few incidents. At least one of these municipalities required officers to take police action off duty, but didn't define "police action." Nationwide, 43 officers have been killed by "friendly fire" in past 18 years.

If we may comment aloud here, if you carry your badge, you ought to carry your gun. It's a package deal - never one without the other. If you want to be a civilian, then leave both at home. And always, ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings and how to recognize (or be recognized) off duty. No sudden moves by either party. Weapon discipline. Be aware that an officer might have their star in a pocket or fanny pack.

Obviously, code words could be compromised (we are reminded of the story of a copper coming upon the scene of a shooting and the gunman running away shouting "Stop Play! Stop Play!" when the officer drew down on him. As we heard it, the offender got away, but it's an old story) but something adequate could be used in place of them. Ideas?

72 Comments:

Anonymous Used to be a workin cop said...

I carry off duty for one reason. Protection. If I run into a voting citizen that I locked up, I can protect myself and my family. Thats all. I dont get all copped up off duty. Call 911, thats as far as I will go unless Im cornered.

11/28/2005 02:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

carry off duty? always, but not to be able to intefere with/interrupt some crime in progress (911 in that case). However, if I or someone (family member I'm with) is in imminent danger, ie., looks like they're going to get shot or stabbed, then, guess what.....

11/28/2005 02:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I carry only when i'm with the wife and kids. It's getting harder to take the little ones to fuc***g McDonalds Playland without seeing
bangers around. For real policework - 911.

11/28/2005 02:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just wait until a copper gets blasted off duty by some shitbag he locked up becuase he was not able to carry his weapon. Maybe no one thought of that. Not to mention the things you could stop off duty if you witnessed (robberies, muggings, etc). It would be a dark day for PO's if we were disarmed.

11/28/2005 02:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Just wait until a copper gets blasted off duty by some shitbag he locked up becuase he was not able to carry his weapon. Maybe no one thought of that. Not to mention the things you could stop off duty if you witnessed (robberies, muggings, etc). It would be a dark day for PO's if we were disarmed.

11/28/2005 02:48:27 PM



If you havent noticed yet, they dont care if we die. Forget the gun. Your best weapon is your eyes, ears and mind. Staying sober helps.

11/28/2005 02:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I usually don't carry my weapon off duty, but I think we should always have that option. I think we have a pretty good record in using good decisions while off duty; most officers realize that their best weapon is a phone call to summon help before taking police action. Sometimes we don't have that luxury.

11/28/2005 03:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But good gun control requires fewer guns on the street. Leave them under guard at the station until you're back on duty!

11/28/2005 03:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But good gun control requires fewer guns on the street. Leave them under guard at the station until you're back on duty!

11/28/2005 03:42:16 PM

You're obviously not the Police. Go back to Daily Kos please.

11/28/2005 03:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wear your uniform 24/7 and install lights and sirens on your personal car!!!!

11/28/2005 03:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone know what excuse they used to cancel the 10 hr day pilot?

11/28/2005 03:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

they don't need one

11/28/2005 04:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

because the ten hour cars werent giving them activity not very hard when down on d.o.c allnite. few screw everyone else

11/28/2005 04:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
But good gun control requires fewer guns on the street. Leave them under guard at the station until you're back on duty!

11/28/2005 03:42:16 PM

You're obviously not the Police. Go back to Daily Kos please.

11/28/2005 03:47:12 PM

Your weeinie ain't big enough so you need a gun all the time?

11/28/2005 04:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's ask Oprah, she'll know if off duty carry is a good idea!

11/28/2005 04:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I usually don't carry off duty but I have been doing more so lately due to the fact that 022 is low on manpower and I cant count on them to respond in a timely matter (I'm not disrespecting the Officers in 022 by saying this, it is not their fault they are low on manpower, the Officers assigned there do a good job with the little resources they are given)I know the alderman has been told that that we are not low but all you have to do is read today's South town to see even the citizens realize it. They are reforming the neighborhood patrol. here is the link.
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dsnews/283nd1.htm

11/28/2005 04:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

those 10 hr cars killed themselves.NO ACTIVITY!!!!!never backed anyone up,never saw them,no tows, contact cards, movers parkers,caps requests,arrests,etc.. in a 10 hr.tour. They just killed time.They had something good and shot themselves in the foot. shame on them,they got what they deserved and can only blame themselves.

11/28/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But good gun control requires fewer guns on the street. Leave them under guard at the station until you're back on duty!

11/28/2005 03:42:16 PM

EXCUSE ME!!! You with the weenie remark...
Apparently you have some sort of sexual fantasy about weapons, must have been shooting blanks for years. You the same type of person that blame the POLICE for all of the sociaL ILLS of the city, but wouldn't dare to approach a banger/dealer and tell them to disarm, so I know how easy it is to attack the police, because they will not be coming after you are your family tonight.....so here wishing you and yours "HAPPY VICTIMIZATION"

11/28/2005 04:38:00 PM  
Anonymous "low profile" said...

1. NEVER display/use your weapon unless it's a matter of life and death.

2. All other police matters should be resolved by dialing 9-1-1 and giving a detailed description of offender(s), vehicle, direction of flight, etc.

3. If you are off-duty/soft clothes/retired and on-duty police respond, IMMEDIATELY place/drop your drawn weapon on the ground, raise hands in air declaring "I'm on the job!".

4. Make no move unless directed to do so by on-duty police.

5. Calmly inform the responding officers that "my star (and I.D.) is in my left rear pocket", etc.

6. For obvious reasons, this would not be an appropriate forum to consider or even discuss "passwords". Also, assume that you are in another city, etc.
The only appropriate universal "passwords" are "I'm on the job", "I'm a copper", etc.

Just DROP WEAPON IMMEDIATELY and RAISE EMPTY HANDS.

11/28/2005 04:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting read
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/thomassowell/2005/11/24/176688.html

11/28/2005 05:07:00 PM  
Anonymous filmore said...

But good gun control requires fewer guns on the street. Leave them under guard at the station until you're back on duty!

I love people like you!
LOL too funny..BAAA BAAAA nothing will ever happen to me. BAA BAAAA, stupid policeman why does he need a gun all the time?
BAA BAAAA.hey why is that wolf looking at me that way?BAAA BAAAAA
BAAAA BAAA please Sir why are you hitting me and stealing my things? BAAAAA BAAAAA cant we all just talk this out and get along? BAAAA BAAAA BAAAAAA

heres your RD # you can just fill in the rest...FilmoreRanger96

11/28/2005 05:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5:07 pm

I tried your "interesting read" and all I get is the "townhall.com" web site. What is the "interesting read" subject entitled/about?

11/28/2005 05:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Two experiences, both while working 011:

011 units respond to "a man with a shotgun" call at 39?? Wilcox. After initial negative search, a guy comes running through the gangway with a SHOTGUN. Turns out it was an Area 4 plainclothes unit who neglected to advise the Zone that two black officers in plainclothes were responding. No one hurt. Whew!

A "robbery-in-progress" at a cleaners on Jackson. I'm 10-99 first car on scene. A lone M/1 with a drawn snub is approaching through a vacant lot next door. Ready to fire, I order him to drop it. He complies immediately. It was a dick from Area 4. Double whew!

By the way, both almost tragic incidents were UNFOUNDED.

The UNIFORM RULES!!! Drop it, freeze and LIVE.

11/28/2005 05:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sure, a lot of you out there are Police Officers but by no means are you the POLICE. If you spend your day writing your Parkers and Movers for the Watch Cmdr. to keep him happy, the mayor happy, and your spot safe, then by all means leave that dusty little pea shooter at home next to the New York Times. But, if you’re out there putting your sights on assholes and locking them up, and putting them in the penitentiary long enough to piss them off and remember you, maybe you should be a Wolf and not a Sheep. There are way too many of you pussies looking the other way On-Duty for me, let alone my family to seek your assistance. I’ll carry no matter what the rules are because the POLICE will understand and Police Officers would never fuck with me because I may carry myself in such a way that will cause them to move on to a softer subject to police, like maybe an old lady with an F.O.P sticker on her windshield who just made a turn on red minutes before 7:00PM.

11/28/2005 05:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/thomassowell/2005/11/24/176688.html

I dont know why the link didnt work, I hope this works now

11/28/2005 06:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obviously it did not work. go to Thomas Sowells latest article at Townhll.com

11/28/2005 06:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

*** AMBER ALERT 009th DISTRICT ***

Beat 934 Third Watch has been missing. No signs of Comp time slips. They entered the contact cards in the CLEAR system and are now missing.

11/28/2005 07:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A number of years ago, I was called at home to report to one of those neighborhood so called police stations. It was on fire. Took the wife with me. Odgen&Kedzie. Low and behold, there was a guy there working for the city with a pick axe in his hands. Sent him up for 10yrs. He came towards us swinging the axe and I reached behind to pull the hog leg and it wasn"t there. He knew from past experience with me that I carried a 5 shot, stopped and put the pick down. Damn careful from then on and always, to this day have one with me,especially in the car.

11/28/2005 08:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

3:42:16 pm

Hey, Ritchie!

Thanks to da mare for your irrational tip. Easy for you to say when you and Maggie are invariably guarded by a crew of coppers with fully-automatic M-4s, etc.

11/28/2005 08:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just watched the 9 oclock news Im not a democrat and I dont know who tom dart is but if booby rush doesnt like him thats good enough for me where do I get my yard sign Dart for Sheriff

11/28/2005 09:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I will never forget or forgive Bobby Rush, the former Deputy Minister of Defense for the Black Panther Party. While working 10-99 in 011, I had one auto thief in custody on his belly. As I was about to cuff him at gunpoint, a mob gathered, led by one fucking bigmouth, to "free" my prisoner. "Bigmouth" turned out to be Rush. Rush: "You honkey pig motha fuckers just can't stand the idea of us n----- driving a "hog" (Cadillac). Let the brotha go, pig!"

My black and white brothers bailed me out on the 10-1 and Rush disappeared. The owner of the stolen new Cadillac, a black man, offered me a C-note, to pick up the steal w/o a tow. I declined his generosity. FUCK BOBBY RUSH!

Oh, one mo' time FUCK BOBBY RUSH!. Join Hampton and Clark, you filthy piece of shit!

11/28/2005 09:33:00 PM  
Anonymous cicero n. madison said...

(Yeah N, Fuck Bobby Rush for that shit!)

"Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system."

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Cicero Pro Murena 36 (via SCC) ;-)

11/28/2005 09:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

4:54 PM

On point.

You got it goin' on, Office!

11/28/2005 09:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its an absolute tragedy that any officer die's in the line of duty, and to be killed by another officer in a case of mistaken identify is even worse, but to tell police officers they can't carry there weapons off duty is just absurd. What about the hundreds of thousands of citizens that were saved by off duty police officers? If anything the number of off duty police officers should be published by the media. Let the criminal know that at any given time, anywhere, there could be thousands of armed off duty police officers wandering the city ready to take police action. I feel really sorry for the officers in providence R.I. But I am sure this is just a political ploy that will never come about.

11/28/2005 10:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Call it speculation but here's a statistic that would be compelling, if it could be documented.

How often throughout the USA does a decent and armed law-abiding citizen, police or otherwise, merely display a weapon when confronted by would-be violent felon(s) who then flees? I speculate that while this occurs thousands of times a month, few such incidents are actually reported to law enforcement.

11/28/2005 10:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not going to insult anyone in this debate, but please read the article. They are not talking about "banning" guns off-duty. They are simply discussing NOT REQUIRING guns off-duty.

Yes, it should be up to the officer. The article does not discuss banning carrying. It merely notes that some jurisdictions are not requiring carrying off-duty.

I'm not sure what could be done other than a fairly obscure pass-code for the off-duty/UC and armed identification incidents. The only question should be what passcode should be used. And this is yet another area where Chicago falls behind.

On another note, anyone see Call Northside 777? Pretty funny to see the Chicago police and CC State's Attorney (in 1949) characterizing the CPD as one of the finest law enforcement agencies in the nation.

Riiiiighhht. Anyone ever hear the story about the Inspector and the Patrolman getting into a shoot-out, with each other, on Cermak in the 20's or 30's... while representing different mob factions?

Somebody has to have the details on this story somewhere.

11/28/2005 10:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

***I AM NOT DOWN PLAYING THIS***
Ok 47 Officers lost lives in the past 18 years due to "friendly fire" incedents. My deepest sympathy to the officers involved and to thier families! WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS ON THE FLIPSIDE OF THE COIN??? I can count of 4 officers I know where a pistol saved thier ass in "Off Duty" incidents they walked into, and that was in the past 4 or 5 years. Publish those numbers where the Off Duty Cop was going to the corner 7-11/white hen/quicky mart for a gallon of milk for the kiddies in the a.m. and happened to be inthe middle of a stick-up. And came out on the winning end!

11/28/2005 10:48:00 PM  
Anonymous oppd said...

I NEVER USE TO CARRY MY GUN UNTIL I TOOK THAT BULLET PROOF MIND CLASS
(BEST DAMN POLICE CLASS I EVER TOOK)

11/28/2005 11:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree with "low profile" at 4:54:51 PM and 5:47:38 PM.

Forget this "password" (or different color armbands, attire, etc.) bullshit. It can only open up situations where "informed" bad guys can become cop-killers.
Be it locally or certainly outside your jurisdiction, DROP THE WEAPON IMMEDIATELY, HANDS EMPTY and UP IN THE AIR WHILE AUDIBLY and CLEARLY IDENTIFYING YOURSELF AS A POLICE OFFICER.

11/28/2005 11:09:00 PM  
Blogger flatbilly said...

There are no big bad wolves out there, just keep telling yourselves that.
Go on, take your family out of your castle's security without a gun. When a felon kills all of 'em but you , I'll ask you at their funeral --- how you feel, how ya living with yourself, wish you had carried huh? didn't want the discomfort of a piece in your waistband and then you heard the words of your family's last breath " Daddy shoot the bad Guy !" Sorry honey, Daddy left his gun at home, I'll call 911, they'll be here in 8 minutes or so....

Attend Col. David Grossman's lecture, read his books, or listen to his CD's.
Fer Christ sake ! the Senate and the Pres. says you can carry anywhere ! And you question it still !?!?

11/28/2005 11:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

low profile" said...
1. NEVER display/use your weapon unless it's a matter of life and death.

2. All other police matters should be resolved by dialing 9-1-1 and giving a detailed description of offender(s), vehicle, direction of flight, etc.

3. If you are off-duty/soft clothes/retired and on-duty police respond, IMMEDIATELY place/drop your drawn weapon on the ground, raise hands in air declaring "I'm on the job!".

4. Make no move unless directed to do so by on-duty police.

5. Calmly inform the responding officers that "my star (and I.D.) is in my left rear pocket", etc.

6. For obvious reasons, this would not be an appropriate forum to consider or even discuss "passwords". Also, assume that you are in another city, etc.
The only appropriate universal "passwords" are "I'm on the job", "I'm a copper", etc.

Just DROP WEAPON IMMEDIATELY and RAISE EMPTY HANDS.

11/28/2005 04:54:51 PM

---------------

THUNDER!....

LIGHTNING!

I second the above post. When the car YOU called for shows up, it's THEIR game. Do what they tell you to! You would want the same if you got that call.....

11/29/2005 12:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We need to give up our off duty guns to set an example for the rest of the good citizens of Chicago who do not carry deadly weapons.

We too should have to call 911 when we're off duty. This would show thet we have confidence in the department.

I'm sure our Mayor would agree.

Gun are dangerous and should be left locked up at work. There are children in most of our homes.

11/29/2005 01:59:00 AM  
Anonymous almost 29 and a day said...

the mistaie the guy in the article made was jumping into a fight that inviolved two guys that wanted a piece of each other

I carry mine ALWAYS to protect myself and my friends/ family

Once got stopped in 018 cause thetact team saw my gun

I raised my hands and told them I was a copper and asked them to instruct me what to do.

I followed their instructions and am now here to tell you so

Stay safe Stay sober

11/29/2005 02:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For anyone saying to drop the gun and comply with directions, please note that some of the deceased were never made aware that on-duty police were present. Pretty hard to know when to drop a gun or follow directions under these circumstances. But that wouldn't happen here, right? Chicago's finest always give a warning!

Thus, NYC's *other* requirement that the on-duty officer challenge with "police, drop your weapon" or whatever.

And this is particularly deserving of comments:
>>Forget this "password" (or different color armbands, attire, etc.) bullshit. It can only open up situations where "informed" bad guys can become cop-killers. <<

Do you have an example of where this has occurred? Because we've already got 47 or 49 incidents where police have been killed. You think two-sixers or fch's are going to practice challenge/password routines?

11/29/2005 08:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And your point is?

11/29/2005 09:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, there are a variety of points:

1.) Some of you knuckleheads should read the article. They aren't talking about banning off-duty guns.

2.) Some of you knuckleheads should read the article. Dropping a gun and referencing a badge when challenged will only work, uhm, when challenged. It doesn't work when junior in 007 or 011 (or clout baby in a unit) opens up without warning, e.g., because our officer with gun-in-hand is black and doesn't look like a Mt. Greenwood drunk.

3.) Some of you knuckleheads should read the article. It talks about a variety of misidentification circumstances. There is not a cure-all, but there are steps that should be taken.

When you sober up, please list the 49 incidents where gangbangers have used the NYC and Boston passphrases!

You got that this time?

11/29/2005 09:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I always carry off duty, seeing I live in 022 and we all know everyone is getting robbed around here. Not that I would be implying police service is horseshit here.

11/29/2005 09:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
We need to give up our off duty guns to set an example for the rest of the good citizens of Chicago who do not carry deadly weapons.

We too should have to call 911 when we're off duty. This would show thet we have confidence in the department.

I'm sure our Mayor would agree.

Gun are dangerous and should be left locked up at work. There are children in most of our homes.

11/29/2005 01:59:05 AM

What! RU Fuckin' nuts? If you are the Police act like one and obey you oath that does not expire at the end of your shift.

11/29/2005 09:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:19:56 am

What do you propose?

I, for one, have never been referred to as a "knucklehead" (to my knowledge) and I rarely drink alcoholic beverages. Ergo, I'm sober.

In the interest of rational discourse, could you please tone down your abusive language. It may give the mistaken impression to many that you are a blowhard asshole.

I have read the article. Also consider that all potential "bad guys" are NOT gangbangers (i.e.: armed robbers, rapists, professional criminals with "nothing to lose").

Assume that my spouse and I enjoy taking a mid-evening stroll in a relatively dark and desolate Millennium Park. We are about to be accosted by several young men who obviously have violence in mind. I am armed. If the men flee at the sight of my drawn weapon and no shots are fired, should I report the incident to the police? For what purpose? To "step up patrols?" Finish this hypothetical please.

You refer to the use of "passphrases" by the BPD and NYPD. Please elaborate. I'm very curious as to how a combined 50,000+ active and retired police officers can have a secure "passphrase" that will not be available to a stick-up artist of median intelligence.

Does the "passphrase" change daily?

What if that night stroll is in Central Park, NYC or other venues outside Chicago. Do we "educate" the entire nationwide law enforcement community to the "passphrases"?

Assume that I would NEVER draw or use my weapon unless it was a life-threatening situation. I'd call 9-1-1 for otherwise harmless property crime felons. I might ignore misdemeanants altogether. Depending on the situation, I may call 9-1-1 at most.

Could it be that you are merely using a "stealth" agenda to argue for disarming off-duty and qualified retired police officers, not to mention other law-abiding citizens?

Again, what are your practical proposals?

11/29/2005 10:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, I am in no way arguing that off-duty POs should be banned from carrying. In fact, I am a solid supporter of permitted concealed-carry. Moreover, one of the very points I made is that the article (which you read) does not discuss banning concealed carry. So what even leads you to this questions?

>>Do we "educate" the entire nationwide law enforcement community to the "passphrases"?<<

Yes, at the same time that we train our own not to shoot a black guy just because he has a gun. Give a standardized warning, and train our people to obey the warning once they verify that the person giving the warning is a uniformed (or at least openly-buttoned) law enforcement officer.

I'd encourage people to drop a gun after verification too. But if someone comes up on your back while you are enforcing the law, than WHAT would make you believe that you should drop the gun when they say "police, drop the weapon"?

I'll answer that: its the uniform and/or button, which is good enough for me and you.

The question then becomes, how do we get junior in 007 or 011, or junior clout-bunny in a unit, to NOT shoot a black PO seen pointing or firing a weapon?

And the answer is... (bear with me, its two parts!):
A.) Require a standard challenge. Train for the standard challenge.
B.) Provide a standard hesitation-response for those circumstances where you should not turn around to verify the identity of the challenger. The response should NOT be dropping your gun, until you've verified that junior has a uniform and/or a button.

The difference between what I'm saying and what others are saying is that I'm saying train people to use passwords to enable hesitation as appropriate. What you are suggesting is that officers drop their guns the first time Juan or Pookie gets the drop on em from behind and says "police, drop your weapon".

Automaticall dropping your weapon when challenged by an unknown is NOT a safe policy.

So you tell me... are you more afraid that a smart criminal will make you hesitate by learning a standardized challenge/pass procedure than of being trained to drop your gun the first time someone sneaks up on you and says "police, drop your weapon"?

I don't recall hearing of problems in either case as described above, but I'd be way more afraid of training our people to automatically drop guns on command. Christ, if I wanted to live in that kind of environment, I'd move to France.

11/29/2005 12:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bobby Rush can eat the finest foods and drive a hog, but he doesnt pay his mortgage on his shitnest. typical black panther piece of hateful shit.

11/29/2005 01:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:55 pm

We may well be on the same page after all.

I assume that I would get a glimpse, albeit fleeting, of uniformed officer(s) approaching. Add the possibility of flashing blue lights and sirens.

I envision that the most common scenario by far that would prompt me to draw and possibly shoot would involve encountering a predator(s) in a desolate area.

Aside from that, unless a gunman went berserk and I reasonably perceived that he was about to maim or kill innocent people, I'd dial 9-1-1 and leave it to the on-duty troops.

I have had numerous opportunities to justifiably use deadly force. I consider myself blessed in that I have never shot anyone. This is not to say that some of my most respected colleagues necessarily used deadly force. Stuff happens...often in nanoseconds. I thank God these officers are safe.

Others were not so fortunate.

11/29/2005 01:30:00 PM  
Anonymous NYPD Brooklyn said...

R.I.P.

Off. Dillon Stewart, 70th Pct., NYPD.

In the East Flatbush section of Brooklyn early yesterday morning, Off. Stewart and his partner gave chase after an Infiniti blew a red light, the NJ plates checking stolen. In the ensuing chase, the driver opened fire on Stewart as their squad pulled alongside. Stewart continued the pursuit after being mortally wounded. The cop-killer, Allan Cameron, 27, was later arrested and charged with the murder of Off. Stewart as well as an earlier attempted murder of another NYPD officer off-duty.

11/29/2005 02:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If that previous post doesn't tell you something, you ought to be beaten with a claw hammer.
Condolences to NYPD.

11/29/2005 02:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmmmmm, passphrases for CPD.....I could hear them now....

Do you know who I am?
About fargin' time you showed up!
Shouldn't you be writing parkers?
What's up Office?
Where's your Daily Bulletin?
Hee Haw! Sir Donkey Lives!

11/29/2005 03:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:30

Good to hear if/that we may be on the same page. My greatest concern is from those incidents which involved the on-duty police not announcing their office. I think they all involved black off-duty or tactical officers. One, as I recall, was in a subway somewhere. And it fueled the perception taht white officers would open up on any black man with a gun...

I'm not an angel or a liberal in any way. I grew up in Mt. Greenwood, and was surrounded by just what we all would expect in terms of prejudices. My blanket prejudices have been knocked down in the police department more than any other place I've been, as I've worked with many a fine black officer (and, of course, dogs of all colors).

I just absolutely hate the idea of incidents occurring where one of our own gets injured or killed in the performance of their duties.

In sum, all I'm saying is that if something can be done to require hesitation when hesitation is justified (e.g., when you get the drop on the person holding the gun), than require the hesitation and exchange so that the offender (off-duty or tactical officer) has a change to drop the gun.

It seems reasonable in those limited circumstances where it might save an officer's life, and given the number of friendly-fire incidents that occur.

Anyway, I'm just trying to think of the safety of all, and I think it comes out in favor of what other cities have learned to do after suffering (sometimes more than one of) these incidents.

Regards.

11/29/2005 05:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5:59:38 pm

Like you, I am white and must agree that some of the finest partners with whom I've shared a squad car are black. One black partner probably saved our lives.

To stay on point, I believe that a plainclothes black officer assigned to a unit outside a district like 007 or 011, must be particularly cautious. A lack of recognition by district personnel, regardless of race, could easily result in a tragedy in a split second decision in a perilous situation.

I still think that the idea of a "secret passphrase" is nonsense. I do know that a major PD issued an armband to on-duty undercover officers with an unpredictable but announced daily color change.

Our condolences to the NYPD and the family of Dillon Stewart, a officer slain in Brooklyn early yesterday morning. By all accounts, he was a exemplary officer who made the ultimate sacrifice. While Off. Stewart may be black, I consider him a true BLUE hero. God bless him.

Stay safe out there, guys!

11/29/2005 09:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whether its a passphrase or something else, hesitation where appropriate should be understood as an order by all major departments. Nobody will really care where the offender is a criminal, but I'll damn sure notice if it wasn't followed when one of our own gets gunned down in a hail by some of our zealous own. Something tells me it will go over better with the troops if its phrased in the language of passcode than hesitate-before-shooting.

The passphrase wouldn't really be a "pass" phrase anyway. It would be more like a "gimme a second before you either kill me or waste 15 seconds processing me while the criminal I'm confronting slinks away".

11/29/2005 09:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From my dead cold hands, asshole!

I will pack my gun until my dying day! Hey Richie Daley, eat shit! Soon Richie's body guards will be replaced with prison guards...

11/29/2005 10:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember a story from the 70s about a dirtbag killed by a uniformed officer who came on the scene with a marked car. The officer left the mope dead in the street and quietly left the area. Three 158 grain, Winchester. semi-wadcutter, hollow points were removed from him during the autopsy. It was department issued ammunition for sure. Nobody got the hero cops name, star number, vehicle outside number or the beat number. The good officer was like a visiting ghost for sure. The heat was on but it all cooled down later. Nobody knows who it was…

11/29/2005 10:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I carry only when i'm with the wife and kids. It's getting harder to take the little ones to fuc***g McDonalds Playland without seeing
bangers around. For real policework - 911."


"I usually don't carry off duty but I have been doing more so lately due to the fact that 022 is low on manpower and I cant count on them to respond in a timely matter (I'm not disrespecting the Officers in 022 by saying this, it is not their fault they are low on manpower, the Officers assigned there do a good job with the little resources they are given)I know the alderman has been told that that we are not low but all you have to do is read today's South town to see even the citizens realize it. They are reforming the neighborhood patrol. here is the link.
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dsnews/283nd1.htm "

What amazes me, is how so many of you LEO's say how you deserve or have the right to carry off duty, but only to protect yourself and your family, and would call 911 in all other cases, but think that everyday, law abiding citizens don't deserve the right to protect their family aswell.

If the nearest on-duty LEO's are understaffed and you can't rely on them to respond in a timely manner, why should law abiding citizens be expected to rely on them.

I am all in favor of off-duty LEO's carrying. I am also in favor for any law abiding citizen that wants to, to be able to as well.

Most citizens that carry (in states with concealed carry permits) do so in order to protect themselves and their family, not with grand illusions of playing cop and holding some mugger or shoplifter at gun point until the cops do show up. They do it because it is their resposiblity to protect his/her family.

I know there are many LEO's that feel law abiding citizens have a right to protect themselves and their family by carry a gun, but there are also LEO's who think that they are the only ones who should have that privledge.

For those of you out there that think only LEO's have the right to carry, why? Do really belive that it will make you job any more dangerous? Do you relly think that law abiding citizens who have a concealed carry permit are just going to snap some day and start shooting people at work, or for getting cutoff in traffic, or for being pulled over for speeding. Granted there may be some very isolated cases, but for the most part where stuff like this occurs, it occurs anyway. Shouldn't everyday law abiding citizens be able to protect their wife and kids should the need ever arise?

11/30/2005 01:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Welcome to Daley Land where solid logical ideas are something only dreamed about.

11/30/2005 04:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:11:10.....I agree with you about concealed carry in Illinois. But in spite of the fact 36 states have SHALL ISSUE permit laws, and eight have MAY ISSUE, Illinois knows best. You won't see concealed carry in Illinois in your lifetime.

And if I'm off on the numbers, it's only a few.....but I'm 85% certain there are only six states in the US that have no concealed carry of any kind.

11/30/2005 06:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

01:11:10

On this good blog of (mostly) upstanding law-enforcement minded people, it would appear that you might be surprised at how few of us are opposed to permitted concealed carry. I'm now a civilian and live in an area where I feel no urge whatsoever to carry a weapon, but I'm 1000000% percent in favor of permitted concealed carry. Sometimes I was appalled at how (a few) coworkers brought in guns from the working non-criminal class (truck drivers, store owners)... but way more often than not these people got a wink and a nod. Properly. Some of the businessmen in the ghetto were brave men, and I'd never deny them their constitutional rights.

11/30/2005 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger justanotherstreetcop said...

Unfortunately, many of the "non-criminal class allow their weapons to end up in the hands of the Criminal class. I'm not, nor will ever be in favor of allowing people(civilians) to carry their guns in their car/on the street, etc. There is ALWAYS the option of a weapons turn in. If you are a business owner, and you feel compelled to have an illegal weapon in the "ghetto", maybe you should think about RELOCATION and/or retirement!




On this good blog of (mostly) upstanding law-enforcement minded people, it would appear that you might be surprised at how few of us are opposed to permitted concealed carry. I'm now a civilian and live in an area where I feel no urge whatsoever to carry a weapon, but I'm 1000000% percent in favor of permitted concealed carry. Sometimes I was appalled at how (a few) coworkers brought in guns from the working non-criminal class (truck drivers, store owners)... but way more often than not these people got a wink and a nod. Properly. Some of the businessmen in the ghetto were brave men, and I'd never deny them their constitutional rights

12/01/2005 01:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>Unfortunately, many of the "non-criminal class allow their weapons to end up in the hands of the Criminal class. <<

As do those of the occasional PO. And then there are the kids who kill themselves or their friends with our guns. And so on and so on.

Are you in favor of taking all guns away from basically all people (theoretically), like in the U.K.?

>>I'm not, nor will ever be in favor of allowing people(civilians) to carry their guns in their car/on the street, etc.<<

And here, in the murder capital of the 5 or 10 largest cities in America, many criminals (and other Democrats) thakn you for your support.

>>There is ALWAYS the option of a weapons turn in.<<

There is ALWAYS the option of doing something to prepare the innocent and law-abiding citizens for the de-facto truths of our armed streets and populace.

>>If you are a business owner, and you feel compelled to have an illegal weapon in the "ghetto", maybe you should think about RELOCATION and/or retirement!<<

Because the citizenry and political/religious leaders of the "ghetto" clearly want fewer businesses? Sorry, but taking a behind-the-counter gun from a business owner is the pimpiest of the pimpy moves ever made under the rubric of "protecting and serving".

12/01/2005 06:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, many of the "non-criminal class allow their weapons to end up in the hands of the Criminal class. I'm not, nor will ever be in favor of allowing people(civilians) to carry their guns in their car/on the street, etc. There is ALWAYS the option of a weapons turn in. If you are a business owner, and you feel compelled to have an illegal weapon in the "ghetto", maybe you should think about RELOCATION and/or retirement.

So are you also a member of the Dianne Feinstein fan club ?

12/01/2005 11:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any cop who doesn't think a citizen (law abiding obviously) should be allowed to have a gun should also be the first to do a weapon turn in when they leave the job. Anything else is hypocrisy!

12/01/2005 11:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and that would be because this, the murder capital of America's largest cities, bans them whereas most of the nation does not?

You should qualify your statement by, "if that cop plans on staying in Chicago". Now if you did that, you'd realize that you are talking about the dumbest 10%. And yes, they should turn in their guns.

Or do you not realize the huge percentage of Chicago's finest who leave Chicago the instant they can?

12/02/2005 07:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, I'll qualify my statement from 11:29:53.....Any cop from ANY jurisdiction, who thinks a law abiding citizen should not own a gun should turn in all their weapons upon leaving the job. Anything else is hypocrisy.

12/02/2005 08:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My apologies, I misread your original statement.

12/02/2005 08:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now the CPD General Counsel to the Supt., Ms. Mecklenberg, Legal Affairs (Phone 312-745-6115) is refusing to comply with RETIREE CONCEALED CARRY. No explanation forthcoming. For details, see 2 Dec 05 thread entitled "It's That Time Again!"

Relevant federal and state laws:

U.S. Code, Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 926C (H.R. 218)

50 ILCS 710 (P.A. 94-103)

12/02/2005 03:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Then they need to send the form/application to General Counsel to the Supt., Ms. Mecklenberg, Legal Affairs and send it CERTIFIED MAIL.

12/02/2005 04:14:00 PM  

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