Your Opinion - Weapons
We've often heard that the best way to win a gun battle is as follows:
- more lead,
- on target,
- quicker.
Simple, right? The City on the other hand, is from the school that thinks more lead means more liability should a stray round hit an innocent bystander, so we are stuck with Double Action Only pistols and underpowered ammunition. A full trigger pull for every round which means wildly inaccurate shooting (our hit percentage is somewhere under 20% we heard once). Underpowered ammo means the rounds aren't penetrating and expanding as well as they could.
We realize the main reason that the City went to DAO was to defeat lawsuits in which the plantiff's witnesses all swore up and down that the police cocked the pistol before putting it up against the head of that poor little altar boy. That and trying to put a pistol away while still cocked might result in more than a few embarrassing incidents (which could be alleviated by a little more training). Our biggest beef is no safety on the weapon - you better pray no one gets a hold of your gun.
We have gotten the new "bonded" rounds that are supposed to hold their mass through car doors and windshields (a tiny step forward), but seriously - does anyone see us ever getting Double/Single weapons again? Or a .40 caliber weapon? Or more than once a year qualification?
We realize the main reason that the City went to DAO was to defeat lawsuits in which the plantiff's witnesses all swore up and down that the police cocked the pistol before putting it up against the head of that poor little altar boy. That and trying to put a pistol away while still cocked might result in more than a few embarrassing incidents (which could be alleviated by a little more training). Our biggest beef is no safety on the weapon - you better pray no one gets a hold of your gun.
We have gotten the new "bonded" rounds that are supposed to hold their mass through car doors and windshields (a tiny step forward), but seriously - does anyone see us ever getting Double/Single weapons again? Or a .40 caliber weapon? Or more than once a year qualification?
posted by SCC at 6:22 AM
48 Comments:
We may see the .40 but single or traditional double/single?ever.
Meant to say never. Sorry.
Practice....Practice....Practice!
And shoot a .45 ACP +P.
Practice engaging more than one target simultaneously.
Practice shooting while moving to cover.
Practice shooting outdoors and indoors, in low light.
Shooting to qualify only once a year gives us 20% hits and sub-sonic 9MM ammo makes for situations where the bad guy gets multiple hits and lives to sue.
Check the order that came out last year we can now use higher powered 9MM rounds. But shoot a .45 +P if at all possible. And practice on your own, it's your life.
The new weapon's order allows you to choose a variety of high quality ammo. Also, various caliber guns are allowed as alternates & auxiliary weapons. Buy one. And practice. Single action/DAO meens nothing in a gunfight. Hitting the target ONCE is much more lucrative than missing it a dozen times. I know, I've been there - and more than once. Our hit ratio is about the national average and that doesn't bode well because MOST of us shoot only once a year - when the depat. requires it. Guess what? The academy range is available for use every Sat. Go. Shoot. Know your weapon and your ability and you will survive. And remember Wyatt Earp's famous quote. "You have to learn to take your time, in a hurry."
practice accuraccy and speed will come naturally.
unfortunatly you will have to spend some money. wallmart has 100rnd of 9/10.00 .45/20.00 and you can find better deals if you look hard.
i shoot a .45 but the 9 is half as expensive and a hit with a 9 is far better than a miss with a .45.
bottom line....
practice, practice, practice
Once again, we as the police are a lazy and cheap lot. Fuck the city and their once a year qaulification! Go spend some of the money you're making and buy some ammo! If the academy is a pain to get to, ask the guys at the Area ranges, they will let you "qualify" just to practice or if that doesn't work, spend the 10 bucks and go to a private range and practice until you run out of ammo!
5/19/2006 09:59:30 AM
You are 100% correct sir!!
Of course all these 2 year wonders don't read the orders when they come out.......Tons of good ammo that meets the requirements of the G.O. now, not like when we had to carry 158 grain lead bullets!!
We'll never see double/single again. However, you can take your pistol to an armorer and have five or six pounds taken off the trigger pull. Doing this lessens the effort to pull the trigger, decreasing time between shots and increasing accuracy.
Does anyone here carry the S&W 342PD as a backup/off duty weapon? If so, how do you like it?
Back up? I don't even like putting bullets in the regular one cause I might hurt someone.......
That would be terrible!
You guys all crab about this gun and that gun, this ammo and that ammo, you can't shoot for shit cause you only PRACTICE once a year when you QUALIFY, who are you kidding?
The "bonded" rounds are in response to the lightweight revolvers. You can only crimp a lead bullet so tight. On these lightweight revolvers the head of the round was backing out by the 3 or 4th shot and the cylender would not rotate.
POST 12:12 Everybody is different. But one thing I have to say is that the AREA 2 GUN TEAM shoot every week as a team at the AREA 2 range. I see them high-fiving, laughing,hugging,kissing,grinding against each others bodies after putting about 100 rounds in each target. Then after patting each others asses, they set up more targets and shoot 900 more rounds. Then they high-five, laugh,hug,kiss,etc, It is something to watch, grown men in this ritual. Then they go into the washroom at the area 2 locker room and wash each others hands to get the lead out. More hugging,laughing and kissing. And then they go to the AREA 2 weightroom and lift heavy weights with each other and spot each other and laugh and kiss and hug. After they get all sweaty they shower together dropping the soap frequently and laugh, and kiss and hug. It is also come to light that the female AREA 2 detectives have drilled a hole in the shower stall room and peek at the AREA 2 gun guys showering. The AREA 2 gun guys are so busy whooping it up they are too busy to notice the AREA 2 female detectives. Sorry girls. Every week this goes on in AREA 2. I have never seen anything like this AREA 2 GUN TEAM in all my years as a cop. Are all the gun teams like this?
No, not all the gun teams are like that, in Area 3 they don't shower at all!!
What do model gun do you guys have to carry? My department makes you buy your own but we can carry a wide variety of brands and have the choice between 9mm, .40. or .45. Glocks are the big favorite but we have a lot of Sigs and H&Ks too. There are even some 1911s sprinkled around too.
I think that DAO requirement is crazy BTW.
I've done much research on this. The CPD should adopt the .40 S&W round for semi-automatic use, preferably GLOCK. (Models 22 & 23)
The 1911 .45 cal. should be optional.
12:52 CHRIST!!?!! I have never laughed so f@#ken hard in months after reading your post. I spit the pop I was drinking all over the kitchen floor, laughing my ass off. These A/2 gun cops must be goofy as loons. DON't TURN YOUR BACK ON THEM!!!!!!!!
AREA 1 gun team are straight. Just for the record.
First the cowboys in the mountains, and now the AREA 2 GUN TEAM? I can't believe it. This is gotta be some bull.
yea,,,,and their is a SANTA CLAUS and an EASTER BUNNY. LOL.
I Don't know what your hard on is about the Area 2 Gun Team,but it sounds to me like you want to be apart of the team!! You have to much time on your hands to keep talking about the same thing over and over. Get a life loser and do some police work!!!
OK, I feel the need to defend myself before I leave for work. She asked me to take those pictures of her and I never forced myself on her. She asked for it and then later changed her mind. I have suffered for the last 2 1/2 years as a result of the lying this girl has done. Just because I was charged with these crimes does not mean I am guilty. I already had to pay $50,000 and now she wants me to go to jail too?
to the 12-52-06 pm post on the blog---------my buddies and i laughed are asses off. you are hilarious. i think it tweeks of bullcrap, but makes you stop and think. i mean i see some of the guys in court from that team and now i will look at them different. they seem normal. lol. p,s, lol, i know its gotta be bullcrap, but cops need laffs!!! do u write for MAD magazine?????!!!!!!!
Let me get this straight, is the AREA 2 GUN TEAM on the SOUTH SIDE like I thought or on the NORTH SIDE like i'm being led to believe?! ------- LMAO.....and pity those poor AREA 2 FEMALE DETECTIVES after finally doing some work and actually getting a drill and doing some WORK! --------LMAO..more then ever.
The 9MM round is unsuited for Chicago where weather too often requires layers of clothing. The hollow-points fill up with clothing and then act like hardball ammunition defeating their purpose. There are too often not enough foot-pounds to stop an attacker.
I’m not a fan of the .40 S&W round either. The .45 ACP +P round is the best for police work. The second best is the .357 SIG round. One only need to see enough bullet wounds at the Cook County Morgue autopsy tables to know the 9MM is not doing the job. BIGGER IS BETTER!
Those who can’t shoot want the ability to spray and pray. You’re far better off running away that adopting that kind of response. Deliberate shot placement with an effective round is what will save you.
Anyone can be taught to shoot well. Listening to the instructor is the first step. Women are better shooters then men because they don’t have that “macho-factor” getting in the way of listening. The day you’re satisfied with your shooting ability is the day progress ends.
Crimefile said:
Anyone can be taught to shoot well. Listening to the instructor is the first step. Women are better shooters then men because they don’t have that “macho-factor” getting in the way of listening. The day you’re satisfied with your shooting ability is the day progress ends.
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Women shoot better? Where?Anyone can be taught to shoot well. Listening to the instructor is the first step. Women are better shooters then men because they don’t have that “macho-factor” getting in the way of listening. The day you’re satisfied with your shooting ability is the day progress ends.
_____________________________
Women shoot better? Where? When? Go to any range on qualification day and you tell me who has to requalify more often....it is sad.
And the answer is women. Women need to requalify more often.
Hey 5/19/2006 12:52:06 PM,
why don't you bring your bar of IVORY down to the A/2 shower, and find out the HARD way??!??!?????
yeah, there's really not much to say. it's clear the dept. is not going to help you much.
The responsibility of achieving and maintaining skill with your pistol falls squarely on the p.o.'s shoulders.
Does anyone here carry the S&W 342PD as a backup/off duty weapon? If so, how do you like it?
5/19/2006 11:24:46 AM
I love mine, you gotta use 120gr or better in it, the rounds will shake out of the casing if you use something less. 38+p or 38+p+ work great in it, however, .357 work just fine too, but because its sooo damn light, it kicks like a fucking mule. A little on the expensive side, but I still like it!
i think if the shit is hitting the fan you won't even notice the recoil.
the 44 mag model is nice but if you fire it......you might as well just hit your hand with a sledge hammer.
The weight difference between the 342 & the 442 is 3 ounces. The price difference is over $400. That's a lot of coin for three ounces.
Or more than once a year qualification?
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How about just beign allowed to practice? It's like pooling teeth.
Check the order that came out last year we can now use higher powered 9MM rounds. But shoot a .45 +P if at all possible. And practice on your own, it's your life.
5/19/2006 09:43:40 AM
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Becareful, the order does not say you can use +P.
Anonymous said...
We'll never see double/single again. However, you can take your pistol to an armorer and have five or six pounds taken off the trigger pull. Doing this lessens the effort to pull the trigger, decreasing time between shots and increasing accuracy.
5/19/2006 11:13:37 AM
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lawsuit time!!!!
Anonymous said...
What do model gun do you guys have to carry? My department makes you buy your own but we can carry a wide variety of brands and have the choice between 9mm, .40. or .45. Glocks are the big favorite but we have a lot of Sigs and H&Ks too. There are even some 1911s sprinkled around too.
I think that DAO requirement is crazy BTW.
5/19/2006 12:58:13 PM
Shiiiiiiiiiiiit, CPD makes us buy our own then tell us which ones we can buy!
The second best is the .357 SIG round.
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There it is. Someone said it! stackes in the mag like a 9, but hits like a Mag! WOW.
What do model gun do you guys have to carry?
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New officers are forced to buy DAO 9mm cal. semi-autos made by S&W, Beretta, Ruger or Sig-Sauer. As a secondary weapon (in addition to your primary weapon), you can choose to carry a DAO .45 ACP made by S&W or Sig-Sauer. No .40 cal. (no loss, IMO), no Glocks (ditto) and absolutely no single/double or single action semi-autos (BIG loss, IMO). The city is MUCH more concerned about liability than the safety of their police officers.
.45 acp + P is an awesome round when the person firing it can handle more than mild recoil, be able to recover for a second shot and considerable muzzle blast.
Only the most practiced and well trained shooter should go this route.
Possibly the better route would be to find competent tactical pistol instruction, INVEST your money and take a course or two, learn the tactics that enable you to win and survive a gunfight.
I have personally taken three courses from this facility
http://www.shootatthesite.com/. Its very close to Chicago and I can't say enough about the pro staff (former DELTA, SEAL SF operators). You train with LEO's and military types from all over great learning and confidence builder.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45acp+P."
Pistols are tools, training is key.
Enjoy your day.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45acp+P."
Pistols are tools, training is key.
Enjoy your day.
5/20/2006 10:01:58 AM
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I used to carry 185 +P in my 45. I choose them from reading stats of many different findings and opinions. The performance of that round is the closest that we can get to a magnum round.
I let one of the +p's fly in A/3 and my partner, who is a gun nut and has shot everything out there, jumped. My ears were ringing from that one round not the 100 practice rounds I shot before. There is a big kick and a bigger fire ball. The 185 +p's rock. I am certain that round is a one-shot-stopper.
I switched back to the regular 230 gr, bec the order does not allow it and I'm not going to explain why a stray found it's way into a nun's head......
5/20/2006 10:32:39 AM
Don't shoot nuns, priest OK, chances are he groped some kid anyway.
Anonymous said...
5/20/2006 10:32:39 AM
Don't shoot nuns, priest OK, chances are he groped some kid anyway.
5/20/2006 11:11:04 AM
Only the good die young, evil seems to live forever....
I shoot once a month, my 45 and my 9, don't any of you cheap asses realize that going to the range and spending money is a tax right off anyways? And those of you out there with the garge sale rugers, get rid of them and buy something better.
Dork
I don't care what your ammo is....or your revolver or pistol!
I don't give a rats' ass about the department qualification course!!!!
Put your target at 6 ft.. 2 shots center mass.. 1 to the forehead..quick as you can draw...then to 10 ft...then 15 ft... then 20.
Check out how well you do...
Not bad sir donkey..Eh?
"This is a .44 Magnum Auto Mag"
"You are nothing but a piece of dog shit..and a lot of things can happen to dog shit. In can get stepped on and squashed, it can dry up and blow away in the wind..so be careful where the dog shits you!"
Join the NRA only $35 help protect the freedoms of honest Americans!
I joined NRA after someone (cop, civilian employee, or bad guy?) got into my locker AT WORK and stole my guns.
I sent the NRA, as a member, several letters asking for help in trying to recover those stolen guns.
I never received so much as an acknowledgement that they got the letters. Not one word on any help to recover my stolen guns.
But, I got plenty of letters asking me for money and to leave my estate to the NRA.
I no longer belong to the NRA, and any cop who recovers any of those stolen guns has a great steak dinner coming.
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