Tuesday, June 20, 2006

Laser Sights

In the previous Quick Hits post, the pros and cons of Laser Sights are being debated, so we thought we'd give it it's own thread. A point or two.

First of all, we weren't second guessing the LA County guys having to use 70 plus shots to take down a bad guy. You fire until the threat is subdued, dissipated or deceased - no question about it. Ammo is free if expended in the line of duty (unless it 's an alternate/auxiliary weapon - but that's another story). Our thought was more shots on target would disable the threat quicker. If it takes 70, it takes 70. If it takes 100, we can deal with the fallout. The shootout in 010 a few month back took well over 50 rounds if we recall, and the gunman survived over 20 hits. It happens.

Secondly, if merely displaying a laser dot on someone is frightening or excessive, how come all the TASERS have them? There is a check box on the TRRs for "painting" a subject with the laser - it is treated as if there was a weapon discharge itself. If there is a "spark display" a TRR will be completed as well.

If it improves marksmanship, we're all for it. If "painting" a subject with a laser makes them surrender quicker, then it ought to be used, regardless of the paperwork involved. And we fully support shooting more than just once a year. If you don't use your skills or training often enough, you forget things and your reactions become rusty. This Department isn't penny-wise and pound-foolish - too often we're penny-foolish, pound-stupid, especially where training is concerned.

28 Comments:

Anonymous Frank said...

I used them off base when I was at Fort Campbell with a CW4 Special Forces guy at an off base gun range in Tennessee. It is incredible the accuracy.

6/20/2006 12:04:00 AM  
Anonymous crimson trace corp. said...

Law enforcement officers and soldiers who use their guns every day are among the best-trained shooters. They spend many hours at the range sharpening their skills. But these professionals know that shooting at the range is nothing like shooting in the real world. The chaos of a firefight or armed attack requires every tactical advantage possible to defeat the assailant or bring the situation under control.

A cold, hard fact of police shootings is that even with frequent training, only about 20% of shots fired hit their intended target. Since the FBI and NIJ began gathering data on shootings, the numbers have changed very little. And the facts are clear--plenty of good shooters are performing poorly on the street. This has big ramifications in terms of errant rounds striking unintended targets, or the fact that the assailant isn't being stopped as quickly as possible.

Lasergrips are helping to solve this problem. In actual shootings, officers who use Lasergrips are seeing their hit ratios exceed 90%. Stopping dangerous offenders means our streets are safer and our officers are safer too.

The proven deterrent effects of lasers and their advantages in tactical situations and training make it clear that every law enforcement officer and soldier should be equipped with Lasergrips.

SOURCE: Crimson Trace Corp., 2006 Catalog, pp. 12-13.

6/20/2006 01:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Learn how to shoot with your weapon (W/no bells & whistles) PERIOD! If you dont know how to use the damn thing in the first place, a Laser, night sights, extra Magazines, a trigger job... dont matter at all!

6/20/2006 01:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The FBI and most large law enforcement agencies have adopted Glock, particularly in .40 S&W caliber, as the handgun of choice.

Add a laser aimer and the CPD would have one formidable weapon that could save lives.

But noooooooooooooooooooooo!

Just like shift rotation and rigged promotional processes, we will be the last major PD that will suffer through the dark ages of this dysfunctionally managed dept.

6/20/2006 01:29:00 AM  
Blogger Crimefile said...

Painting a perp with red dots looks great in the movies but you can’t see the dot well on your own chest. Forget that “advantage”.

Why make yourself a cripple when the batteries become dead or the wiring gets shorted out due to rain or other moisture.

The laser sights are more flash and gee wiz gizmo than a substitute for learning marksmanship.

More time on the range and a FATS simulator is a better answer.

As for the Trijicon night sights, I swear by them. They’re cheaper, better and more reliable. Of course they’re strictly for night shooting. http://www.trijicon.com/specialties/law.cfm

6/20/2006 01:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:24 AM

Thanks for sharing your profound advice, "boss"!

"crimefile" at 1:47 AM

While all of us are entitled to our personal opinions, do you sense that your "doctrinaire expertise" is starting to really irritate some of your fellow bloggers?

You maintain and monitor your laser batteries which provide sufficient notice when replacement is required. One prominent laser has been tested successfully in water to a depth of 33 feet.

6/20/2006 02:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CRIMEFILE:

I'm sure, when you turned in your star and betrayed the Police, laser sites were not in use anywhere. Now that you are a tool for the defense attorneys, I'm sure you see laser sites as a threat.

6/20/2006 03:24:00 AM  
Blogger blacksanction said...

First the basics of shooting. You must build on a foundation of sound fundamental shooting techniques, then you add the laser. Even with the laser if you have piss poor trigger stroke you will be off target.

The laser is a bonus (and should be added to our arsenal) not a replacement for practice, practice, practice.

We also practice with Simunition. That stuff is great but hurts like hell if you get hit on exposed flesh.

6/20/2006 04:34:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some of you guys are real IDIOTS! How did Crimefile betray the Police when he turned in his star? Does this mean I can't retire next month without becoming a traitor?

6/20/2006 05:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crimefile, You're a genuine nitwit!! I will agree that practice definately makes a better marksman but there's NO logic to your banter about how the laser will "short out" this is 2006 and these items are not exposed to rain ...they are internal instruments that are test proven and used by the military and many of the police departments across America...I've yet to read about anyone who was electrocuted by a laser that "shorted" out on them....that doesn't happen...and as for the batteries...the last for at least a year or better and when you need to change them , they will give you ample warning...the laser just doesn't stop working in an instant...you obviously have NO CLUE as to what you are commenting about and should NOT comment on topics where you are not qualified to do so...but as they say...Ignorance is bliss. Actually, I have the Crimson Trace laser grips and they are fantastic...they are extremely accurate out of the box and are certainly a mental deterrant if nothing else...to see the look on an offender's face when he is hit with the laser is worth the price of the product...it definately makes them thing twice about attacking you. I paid something like $270.00 for them and YES I am CPD too...I really don't care if I take a day for having a laser grip on my weapon...I'm using it to save myself and not to cause harm to anyone...if anything it will help me be more proficient with my aim and more accurate with my shot if necessary. I personally think the department should take a long look at allowing officers to have these devices on our weapons...it would certainly cut down the number of violent attacks on officers...look at the effect the taser has...often times all you have to do is paint the offender with the laser sight on the taser and the fight just ended...I have heard more Sergeants tell me that all they had to do was put the dot on an offender and he/she gave up peacefully....all from a little dot!! Phil Cline should really consider this product as it works....and will help officers save their lives and the lives of others.

6/20/2006 05:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:04, 1:00, 1:29, 2:00, 4:34 and certainly 5:39 AM:

(Standing Ovation!)

OPTIONAL LASERS NOW!

6/20/2006 06:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Learn how to shoot with your weapon (W/no bells & whistles) PERIOD! If you dont know how to use the damn thing in the first place, a Laser, night sights, extra Magazines, a trigger job... dont matter at all!

6/20/2006 01:24:50 AM

-------------

AMEN!

6/20/2006 07:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Some of you guys are real IDIOTS! How did Crimefile betray the Police when he turned in his star? Does this mean I can't retire next month without becoming a traitor?

6/20/2006 05:27:58 AM

------------

No, dipshit, if you pay attention, you would kow that he is a paid consultant for criminal defence and plaintiff attorneys.

6/20/2006 07:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Keep your laser sights....OK, four officer entering a residence and have weapons displayed, which laser dot is yours? Build a good shooting foundation first.

6/20/2006 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger CalumetCopper said...

TRR's are the stupidest P.O.S. paperwork ever invented... If you are going to include what happened in the GOCR (which is what the narrative portion is for), what's the point? Bet it was thought up by some atty. to get his boy TYRONE out of charges quicker. Such BS.

6/20/2006 11:05:00 AM  
Blogger Crimefile said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/20/2006 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger Crimefile said...

Fist of all I have nothing against cops or anyone other than criminals using laser sights.

I have had four of my own. The early ones sucked big time! The first was marketed by HK that I used on an SP-89 9MM. The sight drifted due to horrible engineering by HK’s provider. It was not waterproof and shorted out too. The second was made by Laser Max and lasted for about 300 rounds and died. I have a Sure-Fire light and laser sight for an AR-15 that so far seems to work very well. The best handgun laser is a Crimson Trace grip product for a 1911 that I have used.

Laser sights are no substitute for better training, bigger bullets and two man cars.

I am not a traitor to the star! I work some selected criminal defense cases and have not yet done a civil case against a police agency where the plaintiff was not a sworn police officer. If don’t see how helping cops railroaded by politicians and goofy bosses makes me a traitor.

Get you asses out on the range and do it like your life depends on it! Be safe!

I have a question! Are these sights somehow banned for police use in Chicago these days?

6/20/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger NorthSide said...

While the CPD makes no specific reference to the term "LASER" aiming firearm accessories, CPD General Order 92-3, IV, G (with boldface emphasis mine) reads:

"Sights may be fixed, adjustable or Tritium night sights. Electrical or optical sights are prohibited."

In an unrelated matter, this same directive makes no mention of the provisions of Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 926C and Illinois statute promulgating H.R. 218 (Retiree Concealed Carry).

6/20/2006 03:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

*****Word on the street....Area 4 Deputy Everett Johnson has threatened to dump any tact or gang offciers who don't bring in at least 4 ARREST A DAY!!!!! per car. Thats over 20 arrest per team a day.... Isnt this illegal ?? I thought the city cant have quotas!! I hope chanel 5 or Fox news doesn't get wind of this. I have forwarded a copy of the information to FOP and IAD.

6/20/2006 04:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aside from Glock, the Crimson Trace Corporation also manufactures laser grips for both revolvers and semi-automatic pistols by Smith & Wesson, Sigarms, Beretta and Colt.

www.CrimsonTrace.com

6/20/2006 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Crimefile said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/20/2006 06:40:00 PM  
Blogger Crimefile said...

Thanks Northside. That's a overbroad provision that I think was designed to keep coppers from adding aimpoints and scopes.

I'd argue properly that a laser device is not in fact a sight at all. Sights are what you look through.

The laser devices meerly projct an image on the target. That seems simple enough but I don't think I'm making an unreasonable statement here.

Does anyone disagree with that?

It's clear since they did NOT outlaw the laser devices as they well may have.

There were all kinds of electronic sights made for handguns that were powered by batteries in the 1970's. They failed to catch on.

6/20/2006 06:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At best, CPD G.O. 92-3 equivocates by failing to include the word "laser".

However, it is beyond dispute that Crimson Trace, LaserMax and other laser aiming devices are BATTERY powered.

Crimson Trace Lasergrips for both revolvers and semi-automatic pistols are powered by a pair of widely available 3V CR2032 lithium (dime-sized) batteries.

6/20/2006 09:08:00 PM  
Blogger Crimefile said...

The ban only seems to be for battery powered SIGHTS. The laser gizmo is not a sight but an imaging device.

They need to say what the mean or mean what they say. A claim for a violation by having Crimson Trace grips would be VOID FOR VAGUENESS.

6/20/2006 09:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a lasermax internal laser for my SIG and everytime I put the dot on duke his hands immediately go up and he does exactly what I say.

6/20/2006 11:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That generally works well just pointing a gun with sane and sober folks even without the red dot.

Of course some people have to be convinced the hard way. Shot fired, man down, Squad send us an ambulance...

6/20/2006 11:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The only one dumber than Northside is Crimefile!!

6/21/2006 12:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd guess both Northside and Crime file have forgotten more about police work that a certain dope ever new!

Crimefile knows guns better than anyone I know. He's right in saying that the laser devices are NOT banned.

6/21/2006 12:22:00 PM  

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