Wednesday, September 20, 2006

Non Lethal?

How about "less than lethal"? At least, that's the way it was always described to us by a couple of sticklers for details.

From Channel 7:
  • A northwest suburban man is in critical condition after being shot by police with a beanbag weapon. Authorities in McHenry County say the man was shot after he charged at officers with a knife. Relatives of the man claim excessive force was used.
  • This is the first time the sheriff's deputies have used a bean bag shotgun. It is a regular shotgun that is armed with small bean bags instead of shells. It is supposed to be a non-lethal option. But a man is fighting for his life and his friends and family are demanding answers.
Hey?! Nimrods? HE CHARGED OFFICERS WITH A KNIFE. If we were the on-scene supervisors, we'd be asking why backup didn't kill this dumbass prior to the "beanbag" shotgun operator having to blast him close enough that there's actually a chance the attacker could die. This dumbfuck should have had half a dozen holes in him from 9 millimeters and .45 caliber rounds long before the blunt trauma he's currently suffering. What the hell was backup waiting for? Or was there even backup on scene? In any case, screw these gold diggers. You bring a knife to a gun fight AND you manage to swing it at other people, especially police officers, you need to be killed, plain and simple. Thank goodness no officers were injured.

UPDATE: 21 September 2006 - knucklehead dies.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yea! yea! yea! once you bring a "NON LETHAL" weapon into play and it becomes "LETHAL" it gonna bring a law suit? why act surprise
these weapons can be the best or the worst thing for a copper. I say do away with non lethal weapons, just kill the MFer's.

9/20/2006 12:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you're damned if u do you're damned if u don't...had this individual been shot with bullets, the family would be asking why the officer didn't shoot the knife from his hand. The family should be asking "stupid" why is he threating police officers with a knife, let him give answers. That man should count his blessings, he is still alive. We all know, u pull that crap here in chicago, u gonna take a dirt nap. Glad to hear no officers were hurt.

9/20/2006 12:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone else see the picture in the Slum-Times (it was sitting in the restaurant-I didn't buy it)-which showed supporters of border security? The caption read "An anti-immigration rally." What a load of BS pandering to the left. I am not anti-immigration, I'm pro-immigration, and I want fair treatment of immigrants. I'm anti-illegal immigration. Why doesn't anyone notice allowing illegals in simply because of their geographic proximity is discriminating against all those across seas who are waiting for their legal entry?

9/20/2006 12:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The family is demanding answers?

Id like to charge them with a knife and i dont even know how to use one properly. That will give them their answers

Let Dan Innosanto or any of his disciples charge them with a knife and they will look like a cucumber at Beni Hana's

This gut should look like swiss cheese.

Fu^&%k him and his family

9/20/2006 12:38:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They are always going to bitch, no matter what the officer does. I love it when they say "the officer could have just shot him in the elbo or the knee, they didn't have to kill em". Easy for them to say and pass judgement. Split second decisions are easy for outsiders to pass judgement.

Way to go Mayor DICK Daley. You have to pay $1 million plus in finds for your dumb move with megs field.

Dan Ryan construction twice what it was originally budgeted for. Same with Millenium Park. What The F@#K. Enough Already.

Stop disarming the police when they attend court. Your putting us all in harms way "bigtime".

What's with the 2 coppers (one in 007 and the other in 010) that have their personal trucks turned into off duty squad cars. The memorial or fund raising plates I can understand. It's the flip down visor red/blue police lights, the dash mounted red/blue police lights and the 7-9 antenna's I don't understand. If you ask me, you both are real weardo's. How embarrasing! Your asking for trouble playing police off duty in your personal vehicle.

Stay safe out there. Go home at night. GOD BLESS AMERICA

9/20/2006 12:49:00 AM  
Blogger Thomas Westgard said...

Speaking as someone who is a lawyer but isn't a cop, I found this story mystifying for the same reasons you say. Shooting a guy who is rushing you with a knife doesn't sound like a problem. Either there are facts we haven't heard yet, or this story was written in a really slanted manner. Either way, the reporter left a lot to be desired from this story.

9/20/2006 12:55:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mabey they should have shot the prick

9/20/2006 01:21:00 AM  
Anonymous alice said...

Let them Sue, it's all overtime...

on a side note, here are the highlights from the union meeting.
(bear with me, I'm hammered)

Constitution and by-law ammendments:
Ammendment to force those who are promoted to Sgt or above out of office - FAILED.

Ammendment to waive dues for retired members - FAILED.

(sidenote - a roll call was requested for these votes, which was not carried out. Roberts rules states when a roll call is requested by a voting member, it is to be homored, so the results may be objected to at a further meeting).

Nationwide Retirement (differed comp) allowed our personal information to be swipped. A free credit check is available to members due to this. No known members have yet to be affected.

The state conference in July stayed within budget.

Health care:
Korshak is still in court. Geiger (FOP/our attorney) was found NOT to have standing in this matter. FOP likely to file a motion in this matter in 2 weeks. (this will affect retired members being overcharged for health care).

Flexible Spending account (allows use of up to $2000 for medical/healthcare expenses on a tax free basis), use it.

Vision arbitration - FOP and city heald 3 meetings - results will be arbitrated.

Medical Section - now staffed by 2 Sgt's and an Inspector. If you are unsatisified with the nurses, request a Sgt or the Inspector for resolution.

Pension fund - FOP to seek pension portabillity.
HR-4 passed: will allow retirees to use up to $3000 in pension towards health care on a tax free basis.

Endorsements: FOP endorsed Blago, Madigan, Hines. (why, I don't know)

For Judge retension - check FOP website.

Health fare: 27 SEP 06- 10th district.

Flu shots: FOP hall, 25 OCT 06, free for all FOP members, $25 for spouse.

Next uniform resale - 18 OCT 06.

Military Pay: Per ILCS, members on military duty may keep all pay (they don't have to give a check back to the city).

Leaves of absence: The city MAY grant a leave for 1 year, and an extension for 90 days. Members are not entitled to more then this.

Disciplinary: IAD has not been giving members a copy of their statements within 24 hours of interviews. this is against contract. Grievance has been filed. (it seems that they are trying to collect statements against all parties to a situation prior to giving copies out).

Physical fitness incentive: Fire now gets $350, so we should get the same.

Members of SWAT (unit 153) raised question of getting D-2/D-2a pay. (not that I am against it, but bad timing).

That is all I can remember for now. See the website for more information - especially retired members. Many mentions of hitting the web site were made during the meeting.

Stay safe.

9/20/2006 02:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People are unbelievable, pull a knife on ANYONE and expect to be killed.
Maybe if police were armed with a marshmallow gun they could just aim and spray, enveloping the offender with a sweet gooey substance that would restrict movement and be a tasty treat while offender was waiting to be processed.

9/20/2006 05:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the key phrase here is McHenry County. Can you imagine US doing something as STUPID as shooting a beanbag at a guy charging at one of us with a knife in his hand?

9/20/2006 06:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess my concern over the entire incident is that they even bothered with the beanbag rounds in the first place. The man was apparently armed with a deadly weapon. Beanbag rounds (even the new drag stabalized kind) are a relatively short range weapon, and loose their effectiveness dramatically after about 30 feet. If it hit him hard enough to cause that much trauma - he must have been right on top of them. When someone is that close with a deadly weapon "less-lethal" is not the appropriate weapons systme to employ.

Also the downside is that, as in most Depts., having an issue with a weapons system the first time it's employed is bad news - how long do you think it will be before they take yet another tool out of these officers arsenal.

9/20/2006 06:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The man was psychotic, and has had several previous "episodes", according to the man's own family, and a history of police intervention at that location. Those officers did what they had to do. If he was brandishing a knife, I think I would have had to put down the bean bag shotgun and gone for the real thing. Glad the officers weren't hurt. One can only wonder how this psycho had a "fiancee" in the midst of all his obvious mental problems. How anyone could even concieve the idea of marrying someone so obviously fucked up is beyond me!

9/20/2006 07:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Members of SWAT getting D2a pay?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! It will never happen. And you know what? With the response time that team puts out, it shouldn't! Hell, I've seen more Sgts. and Lts. from SWAT arrive in the first 90 minutes of a call out than the troops. It must be nice to have all that downtime, riding around in SORT cars, answering no in progress calls, making no arrests on a daily basis. You guys kill me....hahaha!

9/20/2006 07:39:00 AM  
Anonymous leomemorial said...

They use the bean bag weapon in Florida. It also comes in handy when you think you're dealing with a psych person or someone who is armed with other then a gun, or both!!

9/20/2006 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger kateykakes said...

**Either there are facts we haven't heard yet, or this story was written in a really slanted manner. Either way, the reporter left a lot to be desired from this story.**

Gee, now there's a surpise!

It sounds as if the liberal Media is alive and well in Chicago. I gather they dislike LEO's in your city as much as they do in Philly?

My $.02 on the story:

Kudos to the officers and I'm really glad they're ok. The knife-weilding POS should be thankful he's not taking a nice, long dirtnap - but there is hope - he is in critical condition.

9/20/2006 09:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Sigmund Freud said...

To 7:31 Did you ever think that they may have been made for each other. Who's to say she's not a nutbag? Maybe she need to buy cigarettes and beer with his SSI check? Reality check there buddy.

9/20/2006 09:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Relative to the theft of personal data from Defered Comp, the "retirement specialist", took home her laptop and put it in her house in Broadview Il. She went out and when she came home it was missing. Her son was the only person in the house, but denies boys and girls our personal data including ssn, dob, addresses phone numbers etc. has been floating around the westside since April of 2005, yes I said 2005, it took them 18 months to notify us. Don't believe it check out the Broadview case report.

9/20/2006 09:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did the Union endorse anyone for Governor or County Board President?

I for one believe that "Blago" and the "Toddler" do not deserve an endorsement.

Endorsing them is like demanding higher taxes and more coruption...

9/20/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Sabian said...

We are all overlooking a very important premise here:

All responsibility and accountability by the human race is on back order. It's gone. Lost. Nowhere to be found. Out of stock. No rain checks. Not even a 'new and improved' set for production. It has been replaced by....

You are wrong!
Your fault!
Not my fault.
It's all about YOU!
If YOU didn't do this......

These people need to stop reproducing.

9/20/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger filmo joe said...

The accepted tactical procedure nationwide for employing LESS LETHAL (they ain't non-lethal folks) weapons is to have a cover officer w/his duty weapon employed. This is to prevent danger to p/o's from the assailant getting too close/employing deadly force. This includes tasers by the way for you sergeants out there. This guy is very lucky to be alive, and the family ain't got a leg to stand on complaining.

9/20/2006 11:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No weapon or device is 100%. Even weapons that are designed to be lethal are not sometimes. I'm quite sure most coppers on the job have seen offenders survive gunshot wounds that would kill the average person(or P.O. for that matter.) The human element cannot be completely ruled out ever. There will be those isolated incidents where a person will be seriously injured or die from force designed to be non-lehtal. In this particular case deadly force was authorized,so what's the problem? The family shouldn't have ANY questions about this incident as long as the facts of this incident are accurate.

9/20/2006 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doubter said...

"Seventy percent of what people hold as bedrock truth is bullshit."

Here is the first line of the story:

"A northwest suburban man is in critical condition after being shot by police with a beanbag weapon."

Now every lefty asshole will tell you this is perfectly objective reporting, right?

Why then are these stories never reported, say, like this:

"A northwest suburban police officer is unharmed after narrowly escaping death in an attack by a crazed, knife-wielding man. The officer's life was saved by a shot from a bean bag weapon."

Actually, this is the way these things used to be reported. The reason they're not any longer is that the media has swung dramatically to the left--reporting it any other way would never occur to them.

One reason I'm The Doubter.

9/20/2006 05:14:00 PM  
Blogger cpdwoman said...

Read Slumtimes only online!!!Don't buy ever!!!!

9/20/2006 07:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The way the human body is wired, an injury which is morelikely to incapacitate is also more likely to kill.

The faster the rate of incapacitation, the more severe the injury and the more likely to be lethal.

The bean bag is used to avoid penetration into the body cavity by a bullet. It still isnt meant to be a kiss from a fairy.

So a strike near the torso or limb is going to cause incapacitation to some degree or at least in theory it will

A strike to the neck or head is more serious and more likely to cause lethal or permanent injury

But what the family doesnt acknowledge and most families similarly situated dont acknowledge was best said by Moe Howard during a pie fight.

"Wait a minute!! Wait a minute!!!
Who started this?'''

9/20/2006 07:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As long as we are talking politics here, if you live in Rogers Park don't forget to throw a vote to Joe Moore in the next aldermanic race. He's a good guy and very popular with his constituents.

9/20/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger kateykakes said...


EXCELLENT response. I couldn't agree more.

9/20/2006 07:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doubter said...

Thanks, Katykakes.

9/20/2006 08:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To: 9/20/2006 07:25:21 PM

Are you NUTS. Joe Moore is a MORON.

9/20/2006 09:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As long as we are talking politics here, if you live in Rogers Park don't forget to throw a vote to Joe Moore in the next aldermanic race. He's a good guy and very popular with his constituents.

9/20/2006 07:25:21 PM

Above entry probably by Joe Moore gras and big box.
If you're into keeping minimal wages for the GED sect and for force feeding geese until they die then don't vote for Joe.

9/20/2006 09:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
As long as we are talking politics here, if you live in Rogers Park don't forget to throw a vote to Joe Moore in the next aldermanic race. He's a good guy and very popular with his constituents.

9/20/2006 07:25:21 PM

Are you drunk or really that stupid?

9/20/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why not take the bean bag rifle
and beat the off with it.
Swing at him like he's the wiffle ball. That should be enough to dislodge the knife from his grip and make him lose his balance. I mean if you're not going to use the gun with bullets on your hip while being attacked with a deadly weapon.

9/20/2006 11:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Being the liberal that I am, and always stating that YOU po-lices are much too brutal, FINALLY has paid off!

I have developed an invention that I can't disclose here [in detail] because someone might steal it from me.

I was waiting for the opportune time to market it and after this bean bag [excessive force] episode, me thinks that that NOW is the time!

Again, I can't go into exacting detail but I can tell you this much. MY super, less lethal invention consists of a combination of items already on the market but just NOT coordinated in the proper method for use by [you bad-ass] Law Enforcement personnel.

I'll give you just a few more hints...
It involves a shotgun. [like the beanbag idea] but improved.
MY shotgun idea will have a 'clip' like feature to feed the shotgun chamber.
MY idea will make my liberal brothers and sisters scream with joy and make ME rich!
The secret is in the 'clip' portion itself for this non-lethal weapon.

OK, OK, I'll give you just one hint, but that's it.

I'm going to market my idea by the trade name, the "Marshmellow Magazine!"


9/20/2006 11:49:00 PM  
Blogger Thomas Westgard said...

Is this off-topic?

If you're talking 49th Ward politics, there are three candidates declared and running against Joe Moore:

Chris Adams
Don Gordon
Jim Ginderske

I'll leave you to guess which one I support.

9/21/2006 01:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But what the family doesnt acknowledge and most families similarly situated dont acknowledge was best said by Moe Howard during a pie fight.

"Wait a minute!! Wait a minute!!!
Who started this?'''

9/20/2006 07:23:19 PM

If I knew who you were, I'd be billing you for a new keyboard that I just spit my favorite beverage all over. That's great!

9/21/2006 02:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thomas Westgard-

Your a lawyer

Your a liberal

You don't support one of the BEST aldermen this City has ever seen

You live right in the heart of the most left wing, liberal, anti -police hating areas of the City

Go away

9/21/2006 06:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, listen up, when I go out on the street, I just take (2) .45's and a pair of handcuffs. A small flashlight and the Motorola. Fuck that pepper spray shit and fuck that asp. You new guys will learn. What I'm telling you works. Keep it fucken simple, and fuck that vest too.

9/21/2006 03:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excuse me, anoymous (9/21, 3:41PM) but FUCK THE VEST? Maybe you need to take a much needed furlo about now, pardner! I sincerely hope that none of the rookies out there would give any credence to anything you would have to say.
Hell, how many times do you draw a weapon in the course of your shift?
Probably ZERO! But you're at risk of being shot every time you are out of your squad, in your squad, walking up to the location you're sent, leaving that location, walking into a restuarant for coffee, etc., walking to an ATM for cash, UNIFORM. Truth is, you need that vest AT LEAST as much as you need those
"two.45s" you brag about carrying!! Probably MORE! And why would you not carry pepper spray? While it is impractical to use in many situations, I can tell you from personal experience, I've had to use it twice, and it worked BOTH TIMES! Heck, I wish I was allowed to carry a TAZER as well.

9/23/2006 05:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

VOTE FOR JOE MOORE? Are you drunk or just stupid? Here's an asshole that actually wants to tell you what you can and cannot eat. The day anyone needs advice from one of our corrupt scum sucking adlermen regarding their diet, all is lost. Now take two aspirin and when you sober up apologize. Or in your case call up the good alderman and ask him what you can have for breakfast.

9/23/2006 10:06:00 AM  

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