Opinion Piece
We've been watching the comments section of a couple threads regarding the pension board election. While the rhetoric has gotten a bit heated here and there, some people have brought up an interesting point. We're not even sure how much of it is true and how much is so much hot air and misinformation. We are talking of course, about the $23 million.
$23 million is a lot of money when standing alone. $23 million is not a lot of money when you're talking about a $3.6 billion dollar fund. Under 1% of the total (.6 or so.) Let's say there are 10,000 cops who are employed right now (we know it's low, but we like round numbers.) By reducing their time on the job from 32 years (for max pension) down to 29 years, we just saved 30,000 man (and woman) years. 30,000 years. That's a lot of saved time for under .6% of the pension fund. And as we enter the era of the "20-years-and-out" police officer as opposed to the "lifers," the pension payouts would be smaller while the rate of contribution remained static (assuming a constantly maintained force of 10,000 officers.)
We realize we are being simplistic, but if the city was willing to acquiesce to saving 30,000 man-years for a mere $23 million, maybe the Pension Board and the FOP ought to look into leveraging another $23 million into an increase to an 80% payout, so long as we aren't draining the pension fund of it's equity. Daley's looking to save money to cover a $100 million hole in his budget - and we hold the potential to cover a sizable portion of it in our hands - for the right price. Why not explore the possibilities? Leverage doesn't do diddly for us if we don't apply it.
We are trying to look for an old article we saw a few years back that explained how the LAPD pension program became funded at 110% of outstanding liabilities and had become completely self perpetuating - which means officers didn't have to have pension deductions taken from their checks anymore - it went right into their pockets providing an instant 5 to 7% raise. If possible, THAT should be the goal of the Pension Board. Someone with actuarial and accounting experience can correct our math and assumptions in the comments section. We're sure we've made some errors somewhere here, but be polite about it. We're trying to educate ourselves as well as our readers.
$23 million is a lot of money when standing alone. $23 million is not a lot of money when you're talking about a $3.6 billion dollar fund. Under 1% of the total (.6 or so.) Let's say there are 10,000 cops who are employed right now (we know it's low, but we like round numbers.) By reducing their time on the job from 32 years (for max pension) down to 29 years, we just saved 30,000 man (and woman) years. 30,000 years. That's a lot of saved time for under .6% of the pension fund. And as we enter the era of the "20-years-and-out" police officer as opposed to the "lifers," the pension payouts would be smaller while the rate of contribution remained static (assuming a constantly maintained force of 10,000 officers.)
We realize we are being simplistic, but if the city was willing to acquiesce to saving 30,000 man-years for a mere $23 million, maybe the Pension Board and the FOP ought to look into leveraging another $23 million into an increase to an 80% payout, so long as we aren't draining the pension fund of it's equity. Daley's looking to save money to cover a $100 million hole in his budget - and we hold the potential to cover a sizable portion of it in our hands - for the right price. Why not explore the possibilities? Leverage doesn't do diddly for us if we don't apply it.
We are trying to look for an old article we saw a few years back that explained how the LAPD pension program became funded at 110% of outstanding liabilities and had become completely self perpetuating - which means officers didn't have to have pension deductions taken from their checks anymore - it went right into their pockets providing an instant 5 to 7% raise. If possible, THAT should be the goal of the Pension Board. Someone with actuarial and accounting experience can correct our math and assumptions in the comments section. We're sure we've made some errors somewhere here, but be polite about it. We're trying to educate ourselves as well as our readers.
posted by SCC at 11:00 AM
36 Comments:
We have let the FOP and the Pension board along with Mayor Daley and the wonderfull Alderman screw us for years. Why is it so hard for a group of blue shirts to stick together.
Its discusting on how we stab each other in the back. Now we are being bullied to pay for our own memorial monument. I am proud to be a Cop. I am ashamed of the department I work for.
The corruption is way past out of control in this city. We are pathetic.
One look through any thread here will show you exactly what our chances of sticking together are: ZERO! I don't believe I've read one thread yet that did not go off topic into some degrading cooment about one copper from another. The contempt for one another is truly disgusting.
Yup, I agree with both of you.
ah yes, but the bottom line is this... I GOT YOUR BACK ! ! ! Yeah we're a bunch of bitches, gossiping about each other. That's just natural, I suppose. But remember the contract before this one ? 3/4 th's voted it down. I think there's still hope for us. The memorial ? Shit, I'd rather we pay for it. I don't want to be owing some political piece of shit no favor. Fuck them. Same with promotions. Study, do good, and they can't deny the spot. Sure, they can put you in some shitty spot, but I owe no one, but my brothers and sisters on this Dept, a thing. Love yous guys !!!
Yeah- it don't pay to even use a nickname here.
BACK to the "23 Million $$$" - So did that Shamus guy "mis-speak" when he said "SIX PERCENT", when he meant to type "point.SIX percent"???
THAT is a pretty big difference right there, and WOULD much better support his argument that it wasn't a real big deal in the scheme of things... (which tends to make me feel better- AND it would tend to make the I.O.U. ticket's fear, uncertainty and doubt peddling that much less credible...)
Still- it sounded kinda harsh to blackball them out of the lounge... were they THAT bad- or are our BORED Directors THAT vindictive... (or both?!)
Maybe our Phat Katz need a few more "tugs" with their high-priced "rubs" at those toney saunas they luxuriate at... too much tanning booth time making their beef "Jerky"...? ;-)
- eduerF' .rD
If any retiree votes for Dineen over Hauser, he or she has got shit for brains. Dineen is useless, unless it involves getting his offspring jobs in city hall.
To 12:25 PM
I didn't have my glasses on when I did the math and missed the decimal point. You are right my friend, the total is .6 percent, not 6 percent. I apologize.
Stay safe....
SCC for Pension board AND FOP!!!!
You flatter us. We're just trying to get everyone educated. With a younger police force, the kids aren't looking as far down the road as some of the old timers are. It's a legitimately important issue and everyone needs the best info available.
"Same with promotions. Study, do good, and they can't deny the spot." - Anonymous 12:25:40 PM
While I may agree with you on the remainder of your post, you are delusional if you actually believe your above quote.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
On another subject, I would find the following recent ANNUAL statistics most interesting. A ranking of ALL units in the CPD by Part I FELONY arrest incidents divided by the number of FIELD personnel assigned to the respective units.
Forget parking and moving citations, curfews, disorderlies, even misdemeanors, shoplifter assignments and miscellaneous bullshit, just Part I FELONY ARREST INCIDENTS.
I would speculate that the highest averages would occur in property crimes units and districts like 011 and 007.
Comments?
You guys really need to get over this part 1 felony arrest crap...part 1 doesn't mean jack anymore. Are you telling me that a felony shoplifter means more than someone taking a gun off the street? (remember UUW's are part 2 arrests) Statistics can alway be made to lie--we all should know that by now. I bet somebody in the first district leads the department in felony part ones; but does that make him/her the best copper on the department?
Someone in 025, when I mentioned the memoeila fund, told me that the Department should worry about taking care of Policemen when they are alive, and less about putting their name on a brick. He agreed with the idea and has donated heavy, but with all the Police Suicides, Depression, Broken marriages, leaving people indefinitely down at call back worrying whattomorrow might bring, OPS, and BS beefs, IAD, and etc. The department better evaluate the treatment of the living. THE BOSSES DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT A P.O. UNTIL HE DIES, THEN SUDDENLY HE WAS THE "GREATEST COPPER IN THE CITY" IT'S A LOT OF BULL SHIT. Furthermore, why, at every funeral or memorial do the Bosses get premier parking? It's not their friend that perished, it was ours. We get ordered to move the car and treated like shit because some gold star, who doesn't know anyone outside of his little office needs to park close. God forbid they get inconvenienced.
LETS PROTECT AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER WITHOUT ALL THE BACK STABBING AND TRASH TALK. IF YOU CAN'T SAY IT TO ANYONES FACE, THEN DON'T SAY IT AT ALL, IT'S COWARDICE. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEPARTMENT THAT KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND TOLD NO ONE ANYTHING?
who is the copper in 25?
We in 025 don't wash our laundry in public. You will never get his name from one of us.
Despite the criticism by 4:14:37 pm, I would also like to see Part I felony arrest data by unit of assignment. It would prove most interesting.
Based on any given statistic, I believe that it would reveal the units of assignment where the real police work. I have no objection to including UUW arrests in lieu of shoplifters. Also, I would attach more significance to incidents rather than mere arrests. If officers arrest but one or six subjects in a stolen auto, it should be counted as one incident.
Also, include ALL units in the tally. Districts, detective units, special ops, Personnel, IAD, Management & Labor Affairs. Certainly, many units would have an annual per officer average of 0.0.
One reason why the CPD doesn't publicize this data is because during their careers, many bosses wouldn't know a felon if he bit them in the ass.
Such stats would be fascinating and settle a lot of this macho bullshit about who the real police are. They could even focus such info down to totals for each individual officer on the dept. Now that would really be revealing.
I have no objections to an officer working in an empty-holster unit after he's "paid his dues". What better single indicator than Part I felony arrests?
waring long bitter post:
As a young officer (29yo/ 4 on) I hold the future in a very bleak light. Who can guess where the next 20 years are going to take us? No one.
Getting all hyped up about the pension situation NOW to ME is pointless. I know I'm just a snot nosed kid to most of you. I know alot of you are near your pension collecting years and that's good for YOU. My father's a retired city worker (not CPD or CFD) and I see how important a pension is. It's definately top on the list of reasons that I left my office job before signing up to the best job I have ever had. I hope everything works out just great for ya'all and I hope you appreciate the money I keep funding all the while you tell me, "Kid, you don't know sh*t."
All that aside, there are two kinds of young POs. The ones that don't pay attention to current events, and the ones that do. The first group (like most Americans) are just apathetic. They have low attention spans and are not worried about things that are not immediately under their nose.
The other group is the ones that are actually paying attention to what's going on. There appears to be two major trends going on in this city and country. The first is the dewindling degree that government cares about their employees. This has been going on for a long time and is mostly identifiable to us here in this City, but now also to employees of this State. Has anyone noticed that the State has stopped their payments to certain pension groups? do you think those groups had their pension plan locked in? Did they have a contract? What affects does this have on their pensions? The state claims that this will only happen for a couple of years so they can use that moeny to fill the holes in the State's budget. I fear that had a potentially huge effect on us.
Does the City have holes in their budgets? They claim to. Who do you think they will screw if they had to? 13,000 police officers or 3 million tax payers and voters on sales and income taxes? Sure you'll say hay we have an agreement. They cant touch our pension! they have to fund it! Sure pal, whatever. What will happen? We will have to sue the city to fund the pension. That will go all the way to the Supreme Court. (Unless the FOP roles over.) Who do you think those 9 "justices" will side with? 13,000 coppers or 3 million tax payers and voters?
It's more important to more people that the City keeps running, irregardless of YOU. You are all replacable. The City doesnt want you to police anything anyway. They'll hire more TSA, more meter maids, camera every where to detect gun shots. Just write your stupid GOCR and shut up. Better not chase anyone! Like it or not, agree with me or not this is the future. I can't wait to tell some snot nosed kid 20 years from now, "Kid, this job aint the same. Look, you don't even get a gun! Thanks the lord I was grandfathered in."
The other trend occuring in this country is the corporate retirement situation. UAL threw up their pension to the PGBC. Delta and AA want to do the same. Why? Because this releaves UAL of their financial responsibilites to their current and forem employees. Let me tell you, that frees alot of money in their financial statements to get their business back together. It's good business. PGBC took over Enron's pension, becasue they were a bad business. The US auto industry is teatering, ready to fall off the cliff. Who will handle their pension? The PGBC! The PGBC will be innodated with huge pension responibities that this administration will not be able to handle because of our budget deficit. Well, it'll be Hilary's problem soon...... haha
In 15 yrs, my partner will be eligable to have TWO pension! (Prior work exp.) WOW! But, 14 years from now some govt type going to tap him on his shoulder and say, wait a minute! How can you have TWO when there are poor hungry people out there that don't have ANY?? Sorry, you get none either. Here's your LINK card!
Some old timers stay till they craok because they don't want to spend all day with their wife, I might have to say till I croak CAUSE I'LL HAVE TO.
Thanks for playing!
Partner? Him?
WORK partner, foo!
Speaking of money, I heard that the House Of Hope passed the collection plate along with a debit/credit swipper. If you don't have cash, that's o.k. just charge
your way to heaven. LOL
"We in 025 don't wash our laundry in public. You will never get his name from one of us.
10/15/2005 05:13:14 PM "
You gotta be F-ing kidding me, right? Biggest bunch o'shittalkers around!
Tracking officers' part I felony arrests gives the best index to separate the working police from the political suckholes and dog asses. It should definitely be a large factor in evaluating both individual and unit performance.
If anyone disagrees, kindly give a detailed explanation (if you can).
If an officer has difficulty locking up felons in a current assignment, the officer can transfer or bid into a faster unit.
After all, the most defining part of police work is locking up the bad guys (FELONS).
Maybe it's time for that "BEST COPPER" thread SCC... should be a great one... humor, pathos, ego, cruelty... whaddya think?
I don't propose to know much (if anything) but I never understand the old argument about tracking Part I felony arrests being the BEST index. First of all, using ANY stat as a blanket measure in this department is absurd at best. There are different units, different cars, different coppers responsible for different activities. To say that anyone could possibly point to one number and say "this is what defines a good cop" is just plain wrong.
Let's just take a typical tact team for instance. Now a normal day would (and should) entail going out a locking up the worst criminals one could find. However, you have a commander who, thanks to this lovely accountibility crap, has to account for numbers across the board. So now he has to go to this tact team and say something to the effect of "great work guys, but we're low on contact cards, protitution, dispersals, etc etc." Besides that let's not forget about an EDGE, Operation Back to School, Operation Clean Slate, Reverse, so on and so forth. Now after all of this and much more nonsense, we're going to turn around and say, "you don't have very many Part I felony arrests"?
This is just a tact team. We won't even get into a park car, traffic car, mall car, school car, or whatever.
My first year on this job I was in the top 3 of Part I arrests for the district. God was I a superstar.
Shoplifters are a tough pinch.
And I'll stop my rant with this. Don't forget what is arguably the most dangerous arrest out there; UUW. Part II.
I'll take the flames now.
I would really like to get back to the original post. Your opinions on the 23 mil. I think it's a great topic, especially since 2 pension board candidates are using it against another candidate to get votes.SSC made some great points. Thanks SSC!
I agree with previous poster. This is an important issue and should be discussed and examined more.
In the latest F.O.P. newsletter, Oct 2005. Article by Ken Hauser and John Dineen. Fund valued at $3,658,000,000. decrease of 3 mil for 2nd qtr result of 106 mil in gains thru 45 mil contributions with 61 mil in investment appreciation, offset by 109 mil in pension benefits and expenses.
Click on FOP link to view.
Add it up! The fund is HUGE, but so are the payouts and expenses. Were down 3 mil in 2nd qtr. 109 million in payouts and expenses!Looks to me like were running a deficit. More goin out than coming in. 23.6 million at a 5% simple interest gives us 11.9 extra mil $'s return over 10 years. With compounded interest at 5% we would have 37.46 mil more after 10 yrs which could have balanced the fund for 12.5 more qtrs or 3 years. Now if we continue to run our deficit, the 23 mil we gave away could have balanced us out for 7 more qtrs or 21 months. But if we had invested it and received a better that 5% return we could be running ahead of the game. The fund is barely keeping up! Where are we gonna be in 10 years?
Now that we can retire at 29 + a day are more people gonna bail? More drain on the fund. Will the city continue to maintain manpower? UNK at this time. Less manpower=less funding. Will the city agree to increase fund contributions? You can put as much legislation as you want down state but if the City doesn't agree to it, it is not going to happen.
The F.O.P. board of directors with Steve Robbins as a memebr voted to forgive this to further/expedite the contract negotiations. BUT. The F.O.P. then turned it over to an arbitrator who made THE DECISION! If the forgiving of the debt could have bought us 25 year retirement, lower med/dental/vision (which is gone) higher wages or other such benefit then it may have been a good deal, i'm not sure have to do the analysis. I DON'T SEE HOW FORGIVING THE PENSION DEBT WHICH THE PENSION BOARD ELECTED MEMBERS THEMSELVES DIDN'T AGREE WITH BENEFITTED US AT ALL? IF WE GOT 80% AT 32 + DAY IT WOULD HAVE ROUGHLY EQUALED 75% AT 29 + DAY. SAME THING WE GOT. IN THIS CASE YOU COULD HAVE STAYED LONGER AND GOT MORE IN THE LONG RUN.
check out my link on this site.
HTTP://tierney4cpdpension2005.blogspot.com
Thanks SCC.
"Maybe it's time for that "BEST COPPER" thread SCC... should be a great one... humor, pathos, ego, cruelty... whaddya think? "
Go away O'Grady. You have your own blog. You wouldn't be mentioned in that thread anyway.
John Tierney said: IF WE GOT 80% AT 32 + DAY IT WOULD HAVE ROUGHLY EQUALED 75% AT 29 + DAY. SAME THING WE GOT. IN THIS CASE YOU COULD HAVE STAYED LONGER AND GOT MORE IN THE LONG RUN.
If 75% at 29 and a day is equal to 80% at 32 and a day, why would anyone want to stay 3 more years. The comments on this board seem to be about leaving sooner, so why does he want people to stay longer? What's three years of your life worth?
Some people may decide to stay those 3 extra years when it becomes a question of paying out of your own pocket for medical insurance.
Iwas only kiding about your partner. Wheres your sense of humor?
10:54 AM said: Some people may decide to stay those 3 extra years when it becomes a question of paying out of your own pocket for medical insurance.
The paid retiree health care is for those age 60 and above, so unless you're 57 or right on the cusp, why stay?
All officers who retire between 60 and 65,have their insurance along with their spouse's, and dependents insurance is paid for by the city, 100% if eligible.
Now don’t you think the FOP will try to get the age lowered to 55 next contract? Sounds like a given to me.
Perhaps you mean an arbitrator may decide something in favor of retiree's. The arbitrator made all the decisions.
As for the 10:16 am post remark. He is obviously too dumb to understand what I wrote. But others understand the issue.
Here's a question for the F.O.P.. What are you doing about the 2013 issue? The city is NOT obligated to pay any portion of retiree Health Benefits after that year. For all unions City Wide.
What is the Master Plan?
What is the Contingency Plan?
What if anything have you done?
any of you ever hear of the soc. sec. windfall elimination provision ? workers w/40 qtrs. who recieve govt. pensions enjoy greatly reduced benefits. how many times have you come into contact w/ some p.o.s. gang banger who forgot to duck, got all shot up and now gets s.s.i. and never filed a tax return in his life. private pensions are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. all of those workers busted their asses for a pension that has either beeen greatly reduced or eliminated all together. the question will become, why should all those hard working private industry types live on reduced or non existant pensions while the govt. continues to pay its retirees top dollar ? obviously having earned it is irrelavent. so those of you with dual govt. pensions ( military, fed, state etc...) can kiss one of them goodby and this is just the "no brainer" part. with the fed allready responsible for the majority of private pensions and social security on weak legs the solution is obvious. get the majority of the population into the social sec. program by combining govt. garenteed private pensions, all local-state-fed pensions and all types of fed assistance. at this point the govt. can rally support for a major tax increase by holding out the promise of greater beni's......but wait- just like the toll roads would be made free once paid for and the profits from the lottery would go to the education fund... the people will once again belive......and the people will get fucked !
to 10:16.20
You don't get it!! the 80% at 31 and a day would have allowed 75% at 9 and a day EVERYONE would have got taken care of! the formula was 2.5 % for every year after 20. 29 and a day = 75 % 31 and a day =80%. Donahue just sold the people who were already maxed out at 75% a big 0. if you were maxed out already you lost money approximately 3700.00 per year for the rest of your life and your families welfare!!
to 11:33
Sorry, brother. (snif snif) I felt like I was (snif) pouring my heart out to all of you (snif) and no one cared!
hahaha
someone understands the math.
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