Gun Post
As suggested in a comments section:
What are everyone's opinions on the current authorized firearms? We've heard that CPD ammo is under powered and we've been on scenes and heard of scenes where hollow points FAILED to open up on impact, leaving clean through and through wounds that did little to stop assailants. We've also heard that the Glock Program was a failure, but no details of it.
We'd prefer that the Department go back to double-single, as it allows you to get more lead on target, faster and more accurately, but the fact that you can cock the weapon means that from an (imagined) liability and training standpoint, it's not going to happen.
What are everyone's opinions on the current authorized firearms? We've heard that CPD ammo is under powered and we've been on scenes and heard of scenes where hollow points FAILED to open up on impact, leaving clean through and through wounds that did little to stop assailants. We've also heard that the Glock Program was a failure, but no details of it.
We'd prefer that the Department go back to double-single, as it allows you to get more lead on target, faster and more accurately, but the fact that you can cock the weapon means that from an (imagined) liability and training standpoint, it's not going to happen.
posted by SCC at 1:15 PM
98 Comments:
[into a mirror]
Travis Bickle: You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talkin' to? You talkin' to me? Well, I'm the only one here. Who do the fuck do you think you're talking to? Oh, yeah? Ok.
[whips out sleeve gun]
Travis Bickle: Huh?
----
HOW ABOUT GLOCK'S for us, OR AT LEAST AN ASSAULT RIFLE/SHOTGUN IN THE SARGE'S CARS fer chrisakes already!
44mags , yeah yeah...no umm..500S&Ws...yeah yeah, no umm forget shotguns we need 458win mags & 50 cals yeah yeah. Cmon you goof. 3/4s of this dept if not more can't or don't even clean their own guns. I do agree we should be able to carry Glocks or DAO 1911s such as the Para Ord LDA..but giving some of these goofs on the street a Shotgun or subgun- FORGET IT!!! At least give us a better 9mm round- 115 or 124 +p+...
I LOVE COCK.
The GLOCK program was in fact a success. That program was well done but shot down by the powers that be. It was found that a higher rate of police shot better with the glock then any other firearm. The only downside was that to disassemble the Glock-is that the trigger had to be pulled once the chamber was checked & confirmed empty. The GLOCK is the number one handgun in use in the United States by Law Enforcement Departments. Funny how we can't get it.
Glock or Cock whatever!
It's all about the ammo.
Illionis State Police have their very own exclusive ammo made by whinester. 147 gr +p+
nerds!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As noted by 1:57:49 PM, the GLOCK, particularly the .40 S&W caliber, is the authorized weapon of choice by the FBI, most major U.S. law enforcement agencies both in the USA, Australia, Europe and throughout the world.
While visiting Atlanta years ago, I took a ride out to suburban Smyrna, Glock's U.S. headquarters, to speak with the Midwest police liaison rep. When I raised the possibility that the CPD should be equipped with Glocks, he told me that the product sells itself and that "the chief" of the CPD had suggested that Glock pay him $$$ if he supported its implementation. Glock laughed in his bribe-soliciting face. As it turned out, the "police chief" was none other than the then superintendent. I am speaking of the same superintendent who negligently discharged a round from his "complimentary" Glock in his fifth floor office at 1121 S. State St.
The NYPD are strong advocates of the Glock. However, the weight of the trigger pull on NYPD authorized Glocks is set at 5 pounds rather than the standard 3 pounds.
Once again, Chicago politics has jeopardized the safety of the rank and file, ladies and gentlemen.
I checked Glock's Web site:
www.glock.com
The .40 S&W comes as Models 22, 23, 24, 27 and 35. The Model 22 appears to be perfect for on-duty carry. Any recommendations for off-duty concealed carry?
Hey gun geeks, then new Guns and Ammo is at the newsstand. Go grab your hand lotion and try to find your tiny ding-dings.
Hey Glockmeister
The standard Glock trigger pull is 5 lbs not 3...and NYPD is 8-10 lbs making it the "jerkmeister" Standard glocks would be a bad idea for CPD, when 80% of the dept can barly pass a bullshit yearly qual. You think Glocks will make you shoot better...try going to practice more that once a year!
No Glocks until cpd is serious about training.
cpd has had more kills with taser's in the past year or two, they should approve those so everyone can carry them.
OFF TOPIC, SORRY!
Who has info on the 001st copper who got charged with, and I'm serious now, impersonating a police officer, today? Guess he was one of the Housing guys, something to do with helping his brother impersonate a cop. Heard they charged him with several Felonies and sent his ass to county!
Any truth to this? Allegedly happened this morning. Dicks and IAD were out with an ASA in the 001st this morning.
The city had a Glock program about one year ago. I was part of it. Glock gave the city fourty guns. Each officer was given his choice of a 40 cal. or a 45 cal. Most took the 40 cal. The guns went to the Marine unit, HBT, and the range. After a little over a year of testing we found that most every officer shot worse with it then they did with thier primary weapon. We also had a problem with reliability. The frame cracked on two of the guns and several others had to be sent it for a number of different repairs.
SIG P220 .45cal with 230grain bullets. Much better than Glock.
04:13:53
ok T. SHANAHAN!
just cause you had to go out and get one. now it's the best!
agree with above post but get the K trigger it will be out soon
I highly recommend the Sig "k-trigger" DAO- its dept approved as a DAO and has a much lighter trigger pull than the old ones. I shoot a lot (had my new Sig a couple of months and it has seen over 2,000 rounds)and I have seen a marked improvement in my accuracy and speed (although I have also been taking classes during that time as well- I took two at the "Site" taught by Pete Milionis and one with Jack Manfrey (sp?) at the academy - both are DEFINITELY worth taking- and the one at the academy is paid for by the dept. no less!!! although you have to bring your own ammo). Personally I like the K-trigger even more than a da/sa- as its almost as quick and has a simpler manual of arms- no decocking or safety, every trigger pull is the same weight, etc... You can get the P226 and other full size 9mms now, and the P239 (smaller 9mm) and .45s should be available soon. Its well worth the price. (I paid about $700 out the door with night sites etc.)
If you think the problem of an underpowered gun is funny, wait untill you get into a good old fasioned shootout, and the offender keeps shooting inspite of being hit five times, it wont be so funny then. i hope and pray that this blog is mostly visited by rookies. a lot of hate, alot of hopeless rage. if you dont laugh everyday on this job, and laugh hard.....your doomed. if such is so run away as fast as you can. the job is gonna kill you, because to you its poison.
...also agree with the comments about training etc. Most guys don't shoot more than once a year- so upgrading our pistols won't help most officers. Its unfotunate that more training isn't available, and even more unfortunate that even if it was most of this department wouldn't take advantage of it...
I really could care less about the majority of "coppers" here in the City when it comes to their ability with their gun.
*I* want a better gun.
Something with a lighter and shorter trigger pull. Either a .45 or a .40, but with a double stacked mag. What we shoot is worse than WWII tech. At least you did not have to hitch your trigger to your pick-up to fire a 1911!
Why should *I* be punished for the idiocy and ignorance of the masses.
If *I* could pass a qual test for a Glock or whatever suits my needs/interest, then *I* should be able to have it!
I came on with the .357 as a duty weapon, but we are only authorized to carry .38 rounds. Let us carry .357 rounds!!!
There are plenty of 9mm rounds that are better (ie faster and provie more energy) than the weak willed 147 grain.
The 147 is commonly known to under expand and over penetrate. Bad characteristics for a self deffence round.
The ISP used 115 +P+ with successful results.
I find it odd that a 010 guy and a TRU guy can both put 24 9mm holes in a subject that shot them and he can live to get Jonnie Cockrun as his atty.
There is some thing very wrong with the 9mm 147 grain.
The brass has an obligation to look into this before one of us dies cause of it.
To Glock or not to Glock that IS the question…
I have a Glock 21 .45 ACP with 13+1 rounds. It shoots sweet and straight. It’s like a big box. I also have following Sigs: 220 (.45), 245 (.45), 229 .40 with .357 interchangeable parts and a 239 .40 with .357 interchangeable parts. I carry the Sig 245 every day with a special extension magazines that hold 8+1 rounds. All my Sigs and the Glock have night sights.
My Sigs and Glock are wonderful, but I now save the .40s for a rainy day.
I have a video of a shirtless Male/White carjacker that Tempe Arizona police shot twice in the chest with their S&W .40s. He got pissed off, never fell, and he was handcuffed. The mope then strutted to the ambulance like a big shot under his own power while swearing at the news camerawoman who shot the video. You can clearly see the blood dripping from the two holes in his chest. I was not impressed by the results and retired my .40s.
The .40s are helpful for small-handed women or disabled men to get better scores on the range. I don’t take the round serious except for clean head or spinal cord shots.
The 9MM was always a marginal performer. Again head or spinal cord shots are a must for this politically correct round that provides questionable safety for officers using them.
I think the Glocks are fine but like any other service weapon must be kept clean and carefully inspected after every firing.
Chicago cops are notoriously lazy when it comes to the care and feeding of their weapons. I can’t help but believe it has cost lives somewhere.
When it comes to ammunition use the best hollow points you can get. The department’s current sub-sonic 9MM ammunition is total trash.
I still can’t imagine how some of the old dicks ran around with a single five shot .38 snubbie and only six extra rounds. That was even back in the days of a solid lead 158 grain regulation rounds. As strange as it seems, they still managed to live.
I remember the days when you had to carry a revolver with 158 grain semi wadcutter hollow points. You could carry nearly any secondary weapon you wished.
Lots of cops were carring the "Dirty Harry" .44 magnum. I still have mine!
Those were better days...
Wish they would approve the .40 caliber round. Has the capcity and velocity of the 9mm and the take down power of the .45 acp round. It also has nominal recoil so even the smallest member of this department (CPD) would be able to handle the round when fired. Our current 9mm rounds are a joke. The idiots in R&D approved the 147 grain 9mm as it was equivalint to the crap 158+P .38 caliber round we were issued. (The older wheel gun guys).
By the way, I left the city with all my toys long ago because of Chicago's bogus gun laws.
11/22/2005 05:55:00 PM
The .40 has the knock down power of a .45? It's a little early for the sauce pal...
Okay just a tad less than the .45 in takedown. .40 is only .005 smaller than the .45 caliber. Studies have shown that it is one of the most effective rounds out there today. Which is why many departments have switched to that round over the .45 and the 10mm.
FYI---everyone bashing the dept duty ammo (which does suck) if you check the orders about two weeks ago the dept approved 115-147 JHP ammo the 124, is a good pick!
Be nice if they told us...first I've heard of it.
Any opinions on LASER aimers for handguns?
The "Crimson Trace" laser sounds intriguing.
11/22/2005 06:08:32 PM
Read my earlier post about the guy with two .40 holes in his chest.
.40 is only slightly better than the 9mm. Convert your .40 to .375 and you have a better round.
The .45 is still tops for both handling and stopping power.
Want to see a bunch of congregating gangbangers scatter?
Put that "red dot" on their chest.
One hell of a deterrent, fo' shizzle!
Lazer sights?
I've played with several lazers. They're more trouble than they are worth. They make great props but regular training and practice is a better idea.
I think a gun-rail mounted tac light from Glock or Streamliget in the pockt makes more sense when working in the dark or at night.
okay Gunnell you ass.... that above blogger was not me, I have a Sig P220st not a P220 get it right! Seee ya in the moring
I never go anywhere without my
SILVER BULLETS
Preparation "H"
A round best served c-o-l-d
Half the midget women on the job use their guns as a paper weights at the desk they work(with 2 years on) I don't think they care about Glocks they want Bon bons and loose talk!
Anyone hear about the loser chic cop that works here in 13 that maced her 14 year old kid???? She could not control him..I wonder what she will do to a thug on the street???? What a joke
General Order 92-03, Add.1
Issued 03-NOV-05
9mm Luger, 115 thru 147 JHP
Read an ORDER, now and then, YOU would surprised what you may learn, even if you think it's bull afterwards.
An old-time sergeant I had one said . . .
"THE MORE SHIT YOU GOT ON YOUR BELT, THE LESS SHIT YOU GOT IN YOUR HEAD."
He also made reference to keepers:
"THE NUMBER OF KEEPERS A GUY HAS ON HIS BELT IS EQUAL TO HOW LOW HIS IQ IS."
The mace-ee from 13 thats Magers, she is soft as baby shit
All this talk about weapons and ammo.
After the first shot wizzes past your head and you pull your piece, your hands are shaking so bad you couldn't hit the side of a building.
Also, the chances of you getting into a fire fight are almost nil. Old stats. most shootings take place in 21 ft. or less and last less than 8 seconds.
Also, your chances of coming upon an armed robbery in progress is 1 in 14 years. At one time years ago every car had a shotgun with double 00, it didn't take much to back a crowd down.
I'll take my .38 over any 9mm any day. The .45, that is a different story.
Sorry to go off topic but I just saw on the news that that asshole railroad cop who shot those two TRU coppers in ten about nine months ago just got bailed out. Turns out an anonymous citizen "heard the cries and felt the pain" of the suspect's family, so he/she put up almost $200,000 so he could be home for the holidays. What about the two coppers who got shot? I guess their and their families feelings don't count. To the person who put up the bail for the attempted cop killer, I hope someone you love gets shot and have to live through a painful recovery. I'll personally rally to get the bail money for the shooter. Happy holidays, Asshole.
"Its not what you hit them with, its where you hit them, thats what counts"...There are a ton of police out there that shuldent have a baton, or mace (a la, someone in 013) not to mention a handgun. How about the coppers that hit the floor, wall, and ceiling more than the paper! TRAIN!!!! on your own and better traning programs for the dept as well! Dept shuld issue (as in CITY PAYS, not us!) a 6shot revolver, after that, if you can prove to your dept (by qualification w/ whatever) that (after you buy) you can carry a Semi-Auto, then welcome to the 9mm, after that (by qualification...) 40/45. DAO or Dub/sing action! Sir Donkey may be out of his mind, or, he may be right in the "10" ring with his comment about 3/4ths of this dept and the ability to clean, more or less use the weapon. The shotgun in the car; great fucking idea! dont forget the mayor is NOT a gun nut, or a police nut. If he could get away with arming us with sling shots, I think he would! Shotguns & assault rifles are "TOO INTIMIDATING" for Lil Richie. I know, I know, Ive seen the pict's of NYPD, LAPD, METRO DADE PD, all the way to SHIT ON YOUR SHOE PD in Iowa, and the guns they got, but yous all seems to forgets the boss mans statement abouts "we dont have the type of crime that New York, or LA does". (how the fuck a murder, armed robery, ACSA is any diffrent in NY, LA than here is beyond my blue shirt reasoning!)
That Sig P-220 st .45 is really nice. The stainless finish get's attention when you give some mope the muzzle view.
Take a look:
http://www.sigarms.com/news/NewSIG_P220.pdf
I can attest to the Sig Sauer P220 ST being a formidable tool on the street. I had planned on buying the P220 K-Trigger (december 15th delivery per shore), but after using my current sidearm in a recent situation I will never carry anything else.
I would love to carry a Kimber TLE 1911 single action, but I won't hold my breath.
If you are looking for a new tool on the street, give the SIG 220 ST(all stainless) a shot. make sure it has the new light rail on it. Use Winchester 230 grain too, seems to do the trick.
hey nitehawk what the fuc are you going to do with a light rail on the 220st. Oh shit nothing just like I thought! I have a elevator pass for sale half price for you, it's reel preeety too! Fuckin dipshit dumbass. It's a worthless extra feature, and it's a heavy piece of shit!
What would you know about doing the trick..... What good is that rail....? If you were ever to put a light on it what would you do with your holster....?
Would you then shove the gun up your ass light first!
Next time think before you buy!
I wish they would let us carry just a whistle and a night stick and train us to be kind and gentle. And hope pooky doesnt bust a cap in yo ass.BEEOTCH!!!
11:04 is right. If we were armed with anything more, the citizens would feel intimidated. BULLSHIT!
When I went to Paris back in '98, unbeknownst to me, they had had a few problems in their subway system (bomb threats or some such crap). At any rate, in every station and walking between the stations, there were well armed police, dressed in commando uniforms.
Do you think I felt intimidated? Hell No! That was was safest place to be. Only thugs and criminals will feel intimidated. The average citizen will welcome the sight of a well armed police officer.
This department is run by sissies.
THe Glock 35 (40 Cal) is a great weapon. The 9mm is a piece of shit. Guys will tell you about shot placement but when rounds wistle past your head its not as easy to aim. I have the sig p220 its a great weapon the only problem is round capacity. Glock also offers 15 round 45's sorry I don't know the model#'s off the top of my head. Glock also is pretty forgiving in the maintenance factor. Prior to becoming the police I fired my G 35 several times with out cleaning it and it worked great, however better safe than sorry please maintain your weapons.
in May 2004 I attended the FOP gun clinic
The factory reps recommended replacing the magazine springs and recoil rod spring (The one under the barrel) in my 12 year old semi auto every five years
I immediately called Smith and Wesson and Beretta and for a nominal fee I had four springs for each weapon shipped to my house
It was about $18 for the Smith and about $22 for the Beretta
I begged (called and emailed) the FOP many times and tried to get them to publish this in their Newsletter, which they refused to do. (some bullcrap about lawsuits or so they told me)
Since then Ive made a pest of myself trying to convince my brothers and sisters to replace their springs, just as Im trying to do now.
Please maintain your weapons clean and functioning.
And consider replacing the springs in a semi auto every 5 years
Given the option, the PARA 14.45 LDA. 14 shots of .45 cal. Basically DAO 1911 Platform.
I agree that an officer should be allowed to cary any weapon that he/she can qualify with. We don't have "issue" weapons, we buy them with our own money. Let us decide what we are comfortable with once we can show a level of competency.
The 147 grain 9mm was developed for use in a sub-machine gun (14 inch Bbl. - read as 150-250 fps increase over our, at best 4.91 inch Bbl 9's) from which a hollowpoint will usually expand. at the velocities we get (from our 9's) it usually does not expand, resulting in less transfer of kinetic energy (i.e. less stopping power) and often overpenetration. This was the result of the person who chose this round for our officers being more interested in bullseye shooting then wound ballistics and effectiveness.
A new order did come out about a month ago. It allows for 115-147 grain loadings for 9mm (though still no +p), and 125-135 grain loadings for snubbies under 21 ounces (airweights).
If the Dept. really cared about markmanship, they would take the time to ensure that each CADET selects a pistol that fits their hand, BEFORE THE PURCHASE IS MADE. As it is, they leave this up to the cadet, who may be more concerned with rumor or asthetics then they are function.
Finally, I believe anyone who owns a Remmington 870 should be allowed to register it as a duty weapon (Likewise for the Benelli), and have it available for use on duty, should they so choose, if they can qualify with it.
Can anyone confirm a question regarding the new ammo order- 9mmm 115-147 , but can we carry +p or +p+ rounds?
You can forget about the Glock or any other large handgun not already authorized. Did you ever take a look at kline's hands, feminine and very small. Every morning I look at his lady smith automatic strapped to his side and laugh to myself, no wonder why they want us to shoot two handed.
best bet corbon 124 grain very fast and expands great. the 9mm was not designed to be a subsonic round. I think the corbon is +p+ but it does not say it on the brass they use winchester or remmington brass I could be wrong but if that order is true I am going to look into it right away.
That rail and tack lights...
You carry the tac light in your jacket pocket. When doing a clearing of a business or house you slip the light on the rail untill you've completed the job. Then you remove the light and put it in your pocket. The light is bright enough to blind anyone you point it at in the dark.
Pussy rounds and pussy guns are the standard of the CPD. I think Daley would arm all but his own bodyguard detail with rubber guns.
The FOP needs to lobby for a state law mandating increased firearm practice and qualification for every department without exception. The life that is saved may be your own.
The days of Chicago cops faking firearm qualification needs to end. I know its time honored tradition to send a pal to qualify for you at the range.
I think the rail system on a gun is so your mama can ride it when I work her!
Beat off
To 106am:
Actually my streamlight m6 fits real nice on my light rail. Don't automatically make an assumption based on your ignorance.
and to 111am:
They make a holster to fit the gun and the light, so you don't have to keep taking the light on and off. More assumptions and not a lot of thinking, come on guys.
Why would anyone make fun of another copper who is trying to better himslef? If a guy feels that he is more confident, and can do a better, safer job with a light rail, who are you to laugh at him? The macho bullshit in this Department is unreal.
Would you laugh at someone who paid for a top of the line vest too?
I've ended up searching many dark buildings and CPS schools over the years, and I can definitely see where having the light rails would be a tremendous asset! To be honest, I didn't even know we could use them. Did the Department authorize it?
Also, this Department will NEVER increase the madatory practice/qualifying for firearms because it would cost too much in terms of man hours, and ammunition. Your safety is just not this City's priority. That's why you should make it your OWN priority!
Re: Concealed Carry in Urban Setting.
I prefer the Heckler & Koch MP5 Kurz on a shoulder sling with the Barrett .50 caliber rifle as an auxiliary weapon.
Yes, I have a large penis.
The lights aren't authorized, more of a "if you get caught with it you have to face the music."
I like the idea of carrying a remington 870, a mossberg 500/590 or a benelli. I think you would have a lot of people that would take advantage of that sort of program.
Want to do something daring!Have the dept issue the new recruit his her piece, instead of the recruit buying it. Its just another gun on the street if the recruit buys it and flunks out.
The FTO should know if the recruit is going to make it ,and then he can recommend that the recruit buy his own piece. Christ, at least standardize the weapon.
3:50:47 CADET? When did it change from RECRUIT? I've only been retired 2.5 years but I thought this would have been published before.....
Anonymous said...
General Order 92-03, Add.1
Issued 03-NOV-05
9mm Luger, 115 thru 147 JHP
Read an ORDER, now and then, YOU would surprised what you may learn, even if you think it's bull afterwards.
11/22/2005 06:59:38 PM
-----------
Is there any mention of speed resrictions? Are +P ok?
.40's arent that bad. Like the 9, they are made in different grains. in the tv example, you don't know WHICH .40 office was shooting.
Hey, what does DAO stand for anyway?
DAO = Double Action Only
DOA = Dead On Arrival
DAO = long ass trigger pull that causes your sights to move too much.
anyone who has wrote more than three sentences on here about your dumbass gun collection is a fucking toolbox
Anyone who read this whole thread that he had no interest in and then ripped the coppers on here is a toolbox.
Go rip TRU on another thread.
If you can't put the rounds where they count, what difference does it make.
re the new gun order
I didnt see any pressure restrictions on the 9mm
therefore +P and +P+ are okay for all members
BUT READ IT FOR YOURSELF
92-03 is the GO
I'm a firm believer that it's more of a question of shot placement than it is of caliber. Remember, a handgun is a weapon of last resort when it comes to self defense. It is a compromise, only to be used when one cannot carry a long gun. For obvious reasons it would be impractical for us to walk around carrying rifles or shotguns, hence the pistol. In the Army a pistol is carried as a secondary weapon and ONLY used when your primary weapon, your rifle, fails.
I recently tested the most commonly used Police loads. I tested the 147 gr. JHP 9mm., the 147gr.FMJ 9mm., the 115 JHP 9mm., some 230 grn. 45 ACP FMJ and some 230grn., 45ACP JHP. I tested them by firing them into some used body armour that I had. ALL the recovered rounds,irrespective of caliber, were pretty much the same size. While there was a SLIGHT difference in the circumference of the 9mm. vs. the .45, it wasn't much and I really had to examine them to detect it. The only really noticeable difference was the .45's obviously felt heavier. None of them expanded but thats because the strike surface was hard. I did not test them in water or gelatin. I would not want to be shot with any of them.
Those that make a living studying firearms and the effects that bullets have on living objects have now come to the conclusion that penetration is the most important aspect of the effectiveness of ammunition and recommend that heavier bullets in every caliber be used. They highly recommend the 147 9mm. as opposed to the lighter 9mm. loads. One bullet that shined was the Winchester Ranger T 9mm. 147 gr. JHP.
The point of all of this, don't be lulled into the misconception that if you carry a .45 you are carrying a pistol that is capable of one shot stops (which BTW are a myth) or that the 9mm. is a poor performer. What is most important is bullet selection as opposed to caliber, shot placement and practice. Get to that range as often as you can and practice, practice practice. Your pistol is a tool of your trade. Learn how to shoot it effectively and how to maintain it properly. All tradesmen know how to use their tools and how to maintain them. So should you.
Be safe.
1631 of afternoons are filthy bithes that keep the inside of the squad car clean like thier roach infested apt's. These are the same bitches that stood on the corners of 014 waiting for coppers to drive by so they could fuck one. If they can't even keep thier car clean you think they give a shit about doing any work ? Who they need is the old Sgt ST NE.
Man, let me tell you this. You have some serious problems. Seek help ASAP. There is nothing wrong with seeing a doctor. Your conversations will be kept between the two of you. But whatever you do, GET SOME HELP, YOUR A FUCKING HEAD CASE.
I wrote the department 15 years ago on the study by Law and Order Magazine about 9mm loads. It's simple physics that the idiots that decide these things don't understand. Expansion is a function of speed. The faster the bullet, the greater expansion therefore the greater stopping power. They fear the prospect of thru and thru which they think is hallmark of +p rounds when actually the slower heavier subsonic rounds that fail to expand have a better chance going thru a body.
To the guy who wrote:
"The point of all of this, don't be lulled into the misconception that if you carry a .45 you are carrying a pistol that is capable of one shot stops (which BTW are a myth)"
You're way wrong, buddy. A .45 is QUITE capable of one shot stops. Yeah, anybody that carries one should know how to shoot properly and, yeah, shot placement is important but, let me tell you, being a Marine Corps vet and having retired after 31 years of service on the CPD, seeing gunshot wounds of all kinds, when the crap hits the fan, I want .45 EVERY TIME over a 9mm or a .40. There is no comparison of the damage done.
11/24/2005 08:08:50 AM
You make some good points however
look at a paper target after being shot by a 9 and a 45 the differance
is obvious. The faster a person bleeds the faster he will go down.
I agree the faster and heavier grain of a 9 is better than what we have but I still prefer the 45 as heavy and as fast as possible. Shot placement helps but I'll point out to you and 11/23/2005 07:57:32 PM It's a lot harder to aim while being shot at. When your start seeing muzle flashes, hearing snaps and whistles, and seeing sparks your body starts doing funny things. First you can hear everything then nothing, then you start shaking and then for a secound you have the best aim you ever had. Then bad guy moves right as your muzel flashes and gets hit some where else. I hope no one else ever has to go through that, however its almost guaranteed.
11/25/2005 01:29:20 AM (OOH RAH)
NOT ENOUGH IS SPOKEN REGARDING BACKUP GUNS. YES, BUY A .45 & A 4 MAG POUCH AND GET GOOD WITH IT.....BUT A GUN IS JUST A MACHINE...SUBJECT TO FAILURE, LOSS AND DAMAGE. YOU CARRY A SPARE TIRE , RIGHT ?
AMEN TO PERSONAL SHOTGUN CARRY.
to 08:08
They highly recommend the 147 9mm. as opposed to the lighter 9mm. loads. One bullet that shined was the Winchester Ranger T 9mm. 147 gr. JHP.
---------------------
Sorry, but you are wrong here. The 147 is well known as an UNDER performing round. It OVER-penetrates and UNDER-expands. That is why the DEpt finally after 14 years are allowing other grains, bec the 147 was not cutting it.
Simple physics. the 147 is too heavy to be comming out the short barrels CPD uses. What's the average brl? 4" at most? The the 147 is too heavy and too slow. With a HP you need velocity for proper expansion.
You're home made test, while fun, is flawed. All it shows was that the vest was still doing it's job--to stop penetration and hence expansion.
A 9mm is only .355, the best round will only expand to a .55. That's only .1 bigger than a straight ball .45. A good .45 will expand to .75+. That's a 1/4 inch!
I'll take a four-nickel any day (just wish the dept would authorize a 2x stack mag'ed gun.......)
You got to hit em, but if you do, you minus well make a BIG hole.
Go to sites such as AMMOLAB.Com or Firearms Tactical Institute and you will see the results of their testing. The average Winchester 147 Ranger T expanded to anywhere from .600-.700. The same 230 .45 expanded to .700-.800. I'm not saying the 9 is better than the 45 just that it's not as bad as some believe. You have to decide what you want. A pistol with 7-8 rounds of hard heavy hitting 45's or a pistol with 13-17 smaller but still effective 9mm's. I'll admit that if you choose the 9 you much do some research on whats the best bullet for that gun where as with the 45, most anything is good. BTW, with the newer bullet design, velocity is not as important as it once was. The optimal window for the Winchester Ranger T 147 grain (as far as expansion goes) is 700-800 fps. Anything faster than that actually decreases it's effectiveness. I carry both the 9 and the 45 and I'm very confident with both calibers. I do not subscribe to the one shot stop theory of the 45 because there is actually no commonly carried pistol round that is capable of that.
BTW, another poster brought up and interesting and very valid thought. Carry a backup gun. Guns do malfunction and it's usually at the worst possible time. Get a little 5 shot snubby, Baby Glock or one of those little Kahrs and carry it CONCEALED somewhere on your body. The life you save may be your own. When I first can on almost everybody carried 2 guns but since the high capacity guns have appeared, that seems to have gone to the wayside.
Starsky carried a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver with 158 grain +P rounds but did not look as cool as Hutch with his Colt .357 caliber revolver with 158 grain +P+ hollow points. Go Huggy Bear!
ALL of U are Simpletons,,, I'm glad I only have a year to go. Forget about this handgun shit, there are plenty to pick from anyway. A shotgun or SMG. in your Sgt's squad trunk would be good, , what are you, totally STUPID? Like, da, time out from this shootout so I can call my Sgt. over with his locked in the trunk shotgun? No wonder this place is fucked. The big bosses are spawning future little bosses as stupid or more than they are. This place hasn't wanted to be the real police, [and isn't] since the early 80's. If U only have a couple yrs on, go to a new Dept. if U want to be the "real police" With drippy Daley and I Love N.Y. Cline, the crooked Aldermen, and committemen, etc; don't U see, this Dept. couldn't be for real if they wanted to be, they're all beholden to someone for a political favor, or a return political favor. FORGET what's fair and honest, THIS IS CHICAGO !!! So get out while you're new or you'll have to put up with this same shit for decades like I did. Then pretty soon, in a decade or so, the "Pee-Wee Herman" who wet his pants that sat next to you at the academy will be your boss, or the female recruit from behind you at the Academy that had to have numerous Closed Door sessions to pass everything at the Academy will be your Tact. Sgt. or Lt; etc. This place is a fuckin JOKE!!! Forget about the guns, they're the least of our problems in this place.
Soon 2 be retired Englewood Ranger.
P.S. Little Ritchie, please try to send us some merit / aka. CLOUT Sgts. and Dets. who can read and write this time....
Of all the Police Websites, blogs or whatever you want to call them that I've read, this is the ONLY one in which Officers from the same Department consistently without fail and no shame attack each other. SHAME ON YOU!
08:10
Anonymous said...
Go to sites such as AMMOLAB.Com or Firearms Tactical Institute and you will see the results of their testing. The average Winchester 147 Ranger T expanded to anywhere from .600-.700.
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I'm very skepitcal.
First, ammolab.com seems to be out of business.... Yahoo search reveals:
ammolab.com
This website has been cancelled. Click here to go to the 5-minute website builder.www.ammolab.myhomepage.com/page/page/1739148.htm - 200 - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block
Second, Looked up FirearmsTac, could not find your claims. If you can locate the source, I'd like to see it.
Third, I went to winchester.com. Win's performance stats are:
Muzzle fps=990 ft.lbs=320
That's about average for a 147. And that will not expand as far as a .45. Unless Win has some super secret HP tech that no other ammo manufact doesn't, I'd say a 147 is a 147.
Again, if you can find your source.....
Sorry, the correct site is Firearmstactical.com. Browse that site and you should get some interesting info. As far as ammolab.com, they were having trouble with their server and they may be down for awhile. IIRC, they were going to a password setup. I will try and get more info and post it as I receive it. FWIW, ammolab.com is run by a guy that has done extensive testing of bullets, their design, caliber etc., etc. If and when you are able to enter that site I think you will find some eye opening information that you will find very interesting.
ONE SHOT STOPS
Unless the one shot scrambles the brain or disconnects the spinal cord a motivated deermined offender can keep going just like the Energizer bunny. ESP if hes high and doesnt feel pain
I know a guy who is VERY VERY good with a handgun.
He shot an armed offender in the 010 district 8 times out of nine shots fired from his .45.
The shots included three or four that mortally wounded the offender.
They were administered so fast the guy didnt know he was dead.
However he was still trying to raise his gun with a broken(shot) upper arm when he was finally quieted with a head shot.
The object d' arte is to shoot and shoot often. I presume that my rounds miss and that those that do hit will be ineffective.
My choice is the 9mm BECAUSE I dont always hit what Im aiming at.
If I was able to do that, then Id have a .45.
Since Im not, Id rather have a few more shots
We ALL (including yours truly) need to practice more and maintain our weapons better
Keep em clean. Buy replacement springs for your semi autos, carry a concealed backup and be careful
Stick together we are all we got
Be safe
Good night
you aren't by chance the individual who dropped a piece in the bar the other morning, are you?
My choice is the 9mm BECAUSE I dont always hit what Im aiming at.
If I was able to do that, then Id have a .45.
Since Im not, Id rather have a few more shots
We ALL (including yours truly) need to practice more and maintain our weapons better
Keep em clean. Buy replacement springs for your semi autos, carry a concealed backup and be careful
Stick together we are all we got
Be safe
Good night
11/27/2005 03:41:52 AM
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agreed, I like having more ammo. Just have to practice reloads too!
That's why I was very disappointed (what's new) in the Dept not allowing the 13 rd .45 Glock. If I could qual with it, *I* should be able to have it.
Ill still stick to the .45. Some people are just mentally strong. if he could stand 8/9 .45, he could handle ALOT of 9's...........
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.........
Fucking Small Dick Nerds!
NERDS!!!
HEY, I don't know shit about guns.
But I do have a small penis.
I love my P220 wouldnt trade it for the glock. As far as approved weapons the list should be bigger and the choice of ammo should be our own. Not that of some person who doesn't want us to hurt anyone.
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