Alleged Downtown Meeting
From one of the comments sections, a reader tells us of a meeting downtown on 16 October. The meat of the comment is as follows:
- We just got word from our commander that THIS MORNING, 16 October 2006, a meeting was held down at headquarters. This is what was covered;
- 12 or more TRRs in a year's time AND/OR 20 or more CR numbers (unfounded, not sustained and YES even EXONERATED) will be grounds to put an officer in a personal concerns like program
- ALSO...it will be grounds for that officer to be dumped out of whatever unit they are in or from the tact team.
- The reason? Purely money. The city is tired of paying out millions in settlements.
From there, the comment heads downhill - we won't even say on where it ends up. But if true, this is a major policy change that is going to have an impact on operations citywide. We've recently received a couple of e-mails, opinion pieces if you will, that cover exactly this topic. We will be culling some of the better ideas (so as not to identify an anonymous source) and have a post up later this week.
posted by SCC at 5:42 AM
82 Comments:
WOW! That is a simple concept don't do anything just a ticket mover parker if anything if you work you lose! No one cares about you we are just a number that the city under delay will get rid off asap if any mistake is made! If your in college or have a big degree whatever classes you took in school are a waste if you join this job! Lets see insurance rising, pension not being funded by city, bad bosses, no help a disater waiting to happen!
Again why do anything???
Its 10 TRRs in a year..
Well well well... Ain't this a clusterfuck now? It doesn't pay to be "The Police" anymore. Why be placed on a personal concern list just for doing your job? Once the "powers that be" see the great upswing in the crime numbers, they will look like jackasses. Just answer radio calls, back each other up, and the non-existant pension will get here eventually. How sad.
"...Cops have been granted a certain amount of authority by society..." -Derek Vinyard
Does this surprise anyone? Anytime something new is implemented in this dept the main focus of it is not for the benefit of the Street Copper but because of Politics and Money. The higher ups cannot admit that maybe they might be at fault because of a micro-managing supervision style, a lack of man-power and low moral because of merit and seeing 1 yr wonders go to special units because of who they are related to while the non-clout copper is expected to work his/her ass off to pick up the slack for these people. All of you non-Clout coppers out there do yourself a favor. Study your ass off for the next Dicks test, get made Dick and never take another test again. Get out of the Patrol division ASAP. I know some clout people still make dick but it is the Most Legit test given. (Notice I said most legit, not totally but it is better then the crooked Sgts test they have been giving lately.
I have written many times concerning the lack of true leadership displayed by personnel that are, ostensibly, in supervisory roles. I suppose that that I was spoiled by my overwhelmingly positive experiences in the USMC-mia culpa. The problem here, however, is distinguishable from the run of the mill "inability to tell the truth" that plagues the CPD command staff.
The instant issue is distinguishable because the blame can be directly attributed to the rank and file rather than anybody in charge. Whether the antics that have caused the Command Staff to take this position, assuming that SCC has accurate information, arose from police officers that choose to make a bad decision, or from the actions of police officers that just cannot make a responsible decision doesn't matter-in either case the people don't belong on the job. I know, I know, blame the scumbag lawyers right!?!?
The truth is that in spite of all the bad press law enforcement around the country have gotten recently, most people, more importantly most jurors, want to believe the the police version of events. They have an emotional need to really-it lets them know that the world is in a livable condition. In some cases though, the circumstances of a suit are so egregious that there really is no choice but to find a sizable recovery for the plaintiff. These recoveries amount to approximately 120 million dollars over the last six years. This is hardly a sustainable condition.
For those of you that think that making an offer to settle before going to trial is not in the best interests of the City you are wrong. By taking a suit to trial, say one involving multiple and continuous Civil Rights violations and the tort of negligent entrustment, the City risks not only run of the mill damages but also risks the possibility of punitive (not talking about punitive damages to the individual P.O.)damages and the further indignity of having to pay the plaintiff's attorney fees and costs. Running at $250.00 to $400.00 an hour the legal fees can be astronomical.
Just a few passing thoughts.
This is where FOP has to step in and (openly) voice their immediate concern and cause the city to cease immediate deflection. If this is true there's a gross error in the making. Maybe we should all get together figure out the true legal language and file a class action lawsuit against the city.
If the city is tired of paying out the claims how about not paying them out. The city pays out like a nuisance complaint rather than chancing what they assume would be a longer expensive legal battle, not always so. Can you imagine the money the city would have saved over the years by not treating the majority of the claims as nuisance claims?
Here in Chicago you can be a criminal, break the law, go to jail, lie, then sue even when wrong the city just gives it up. Ever notice, how many attorneys are willing to take these type of cases but just try to find an attorney as a lone officer to sue the city and all of a sudden they barley exist, what a money cow
set-up.
The city could also save a ton of money by not hiring all those outside expensive attorneys. The cost over run is the fault of the city pay out policy! Typical city nonsense put blame on the backs of working officer's even if their not guilty. The city always needs a fall person, since they only want the public to perceive them as accountable, forget the reality that it's all a game to them. More city smoke and mirrors but really reflected on our back this time.
Notice how no one, not FOP nor Alderperson, or elected official, forget the Reverends their running the city but none of the above are speaking up for us or even speaking well of us these days, NO ONE! Now that makes one really go hmmmmmmmmmm. What, the city has run short on COP grants so were now a true trash toss. Anyone else had enough of the city's games at our expense?
It’s 12 or more TRRs in a year's time
AND/OR 20 or more CR numbers (even EXONERATED) in a 5 year period
Seems to me to be a little extreme and arbitrary if they don't look at the circumstnces involved or don't care whethere the Complaints are unfounded or exhonerated. I guess we can thank those indicted S.O.S. guys for this type of fallout. Thanks jagoffs!!!
I'm a dog-ass, so I have nothing to worry about. I don't achieve CR's. I don't care for Honorable Mentions either. I like the two days of the month-1st and 16th. That's it. I don't like confrontation like others seem to enjoy? The bosses seem to be happy with my parkers? I watch my ass and make sure I don't get involved in any police trouble. If my partner for the night is a working copper, then I do as little as possible so it won't happen again. I'm new to the job, still learning, but I can assure you there are quite a few 3rd watch coppers in 009 who will be affected by this city meeting. I'm gonna sit back and watch 'em fall too... Yay! More openings on the beat cars...hahaha
Don't hate me working coppers-just hate the game! You choose to act in a way which brings out about CR's-not me. Don't come crying to me when you need a benefit at Bourbon Street for losing days. I'll laugh at you!
In other words...
Stay safe or some other copper- maybe from your district, will be going home to your families!
Sadly the Department is doing what big corporations have been doing for decades: Basing all its policy and personnel decisions on the advice from lawyers and accountants.
I can't think of a better way to suck the life and morale out of an organization than to make policy decisions based exclusively on numbers.
It is a reactionary and kneejerk reflex. It shows how shallow our leadership is and it portends bad things for the guys and gals who work the streets.
How can you penalize an officer for lawfully justified utilization of the use of force paradigm we are trained to use? Talk about a moral buster - in essence the city's telling us to (a) be dogs and don't do squat, and (b) not defend ourselves.
This is probably one of the worst thing's I've heard in my short time on the job. I do look forward to working with some of you tact officers once you get back on the beat though. Stay safe
12 or more TRRs in a year's time AND/OR 20 or more CR numbers (unfounded, not sustained and YES even EXONERATED) will be grounds to put an officer in a personal concerns like program
What are TRRs? CR numbers?
Thanks in advance.
Offtopic:
Kudos to the PPD for a job well done today.
Thoughts and prayers to the officers shot.
PPD: 1
POS: 0
When you say that the reason for all of this is simply money it is certainly misleading. You neglect that to point out that in some cases the money has been paid because a much larger amount might have been determined if the case had gone to court. And further, in some cases, there is always the possibility that some bonehead might have taken it upon himself to offer his own form of justice to an offender instead of allowing it to go through the legal process...Which is exactly what you would want if one of your family members was involved in an incident where there was a misuse of force
Where do we work again? Naperville? Oh thats right, Chicago. Unbelievable.
So are supervisors who taze "X" amount of people in the same boat?
This is sad, and what is sader is that everyone will vent (here or at work), but what will happen on election day?
We are our own worst enemies. Do we ever have 99.9% involvement. Our voice doesn't matter because we never unite.
We need to actively campaign against Daly.
Also, how about a blog post to rat Daly out? Lots of people read this blog who are not police. Maybe someone will post something that will stick that Slimeball won't be able to get out of.
Who has never heard they were just a number on this job?
Add to the equation the our underfunded pension. City's plan is to toss more Full Time Employee's off the payroll along with raising taxes to help the under funded pension, which shows the debt growing since 97. Don't think for one minute the city does not go after officer's jobs as a budget restraint. My opinion for what it's worth were also a part of that equation. Any Sup that brags about the number of officer's he's trying to fire has a real problem. Since he never tells the media the whole truth, Oh their not all really guilty of the charges, hehe. Does he and other's have wager's on head count elimination.
Depending on where you work or what your duty may entail for the tour(CR) and (TRR) can tend to be higher in certain areas of the city. CR's have always been a street game of perceived payback to police. Can't imagine their resisting arrest and fighting so you do what now? The city already allows them to feel free to flee in their vehicle at high speeds through Chicago streets. Do ya think Daley is taking Safe Haven a bit far?
Guess the city figures until they purchase or loan and mount those camera's they need an immediate perceived fix and tag were it. This nonsense has to come with a new marketable lure for new Law Enforcement officer's. Unarmed Security perk card still needed.
O.K. who let the dogs out?
They don't want you to police...they only want you to put out "fires" when there's a problem..keep kicking in doors and hookin' em up...eventually you will be a bad statistic...the job is over...it's been over for awhile..put in your 25 years and do as little as possible...sounds sad, but that is the reality of what it is...it does'nt make you a dog-ass, just someone with a chance to collect a pension check...my career is almost over and I'm looking forward to retirement....IT IS TRULY OVER !!
Anonymous said...
When you say that the reason for all of this is simply money it is certainly misleading. You neglect that to point out that in some cases the money has been paid because a much larger amount might have been determined if the case had gone to court. And further, in some cases, there is always the possibility that some bonehead might have taken it upon himself to offer his own form of justice to an offender instead of allowing it to go through the legal process...Which is exactly what you would want if one of your family members was involved in an incident where there was a misuse of force
10/17/2006 03:58:32 PM
Hey, look if my kid is a problem slap um along side the head, place the fear of God in um. He will sign up for the Corp in the morning and respect you after boot camp. Just don't leave us with any medical bills. Zaw Right? Zaw right!
kateycakes
TRR = Tactical Response Report
Essentially, every time you have to use force (i.e. put your hands on someone, in a foot chase, discharge weapon-gun, oc spray) you have to fill a report out saying why you did what you did to cover your ass against frivolous lawsuits (which they still do anyway).
CR = Complaint Register
It is a allegation of wrong doing against a citizen/another officer CPD officers whether it’s total bull shit or not.
Example: Joe shit head alleges a CPD officer took his $5,000 Rolex watch, but does not even a pot to piss in.
All of you non-Clout coppers out there do yourself a favor. Study your ass off for the next Dicks test, get made Dick and never take another test again. Get out of the Patrol division ASAP. I know some clout people still make dick but it is the Most Legit test given.
_______________-
AAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAHA!!!!!!
the circumstances of a suit are so egregious that there really is no choice but to find a sizable recovery for the plaintiff. These recoveries amount to approximately 120 million dollars over the last six years. This is hardly a sustainable condition.
________________
Here is a simple answer to the problem:
LEGISLATE A CAP TO PUNITIVE AWARDS!
There. Done. No more problems. Put the cap at $250,000. The 1% of the population that would resist this are lawyers and their bird clients. Tough.
If the city is tired of paying out the claims how about not paying them out. The city pays out like a nuisance complaint rather than chancing what they assume would be a longer expensive legal battle, not always so. Can you imagine the money the city would have saved over the years by not treating the majority of the claims as nuisance claims?
________________
Ya, just fire all those do-nothing Corp Attys! Why do they get a tax payer backed salary??
Anonymous said...
It’s 12 or more TRRs in a year's time
AND/OR 20 or more CR numbers (even EXONERATED) in a 5 year period
10/17/2006 01:49:29 PM
_________________
So, the police are "guilty even if proven innocent".
ALSO...it will be grounds for that officer to be dumped out of whatever unit they are in or from the tact team.
Why be on a team or a unit?? bust your ass catching CR's to get heads that They want and still work 8 hours and 35 minutes. For what?
Anonymous said...
kateycakes
TRR = Tactical Response Report
Essentially, every time you have to use force (i.e. put your hands on someone, in a foot chase, discharge weapon-gun, oc spray) you have to fill a report out saying why you did what you did to cover your ass against frivolous lawsuits (which they still do anyway).
CR = Complaint Register
It is a allegation of wrong doing against a citizen/another officer CPD officers whether it’s total bull shit or not.
10/17/2006 08:56:20 PM
Thank you so much, Anon. Very much appreciated.
has any of this even been confirmed to be true yet or is this just another out of control rumor?
Wouldn't it be interesting to learn: who (in the Dept.) authored this idea (re: TRR's and CR's), how exactly those numbers were setled upon, and what precisely the police experience (field duty, arrests, etc.) of the person(s) who offered this idea?
OFF TOPIC PLEASE remember Judge Coleen Sheehan when she is up for retention. She is the political hack judge that said she didn't believe the police regardihg the two drunken sisters, daughters of some bigshot Dem. polititian from out of state. She takes her marching orders from city hall. Dump her.
I wonder if all the information is from the same source that "knew for sure" that Cmdr. matthews had been reinstated as a commander.
If he was nobody has told him about it. I saw him a few days ago and he was sure dressed like a Lt. not a Commander.
To 10/17/2006 09:14:14 PM
Parry and Riposte:
Let us not confuse tort reform and Constitutional violations. While there has been significant support for tort reform over the last decade, say by capping damages at $250,000 as you suggest, there has been no similar support for capping punitive damages and it is unlikely there ever will be. The reason is simple: regular damages are awarded to make the plaintiff whole; punitive damages have as their goal punishing the trangressor-say maybe an organization that keeps on the books people that have a demonstrated history of home invasions or whatever. Because of the historical context within which our legal system arose-throwing off tyranical British rule-it has running deeply within it the strong notion of punishing the guilty, especially when the guilty party is an apparatus of the state.
Moreover, you should really stop and consider who your legislators are-by and large whether Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Centrist or Green they are highly likey to be attornies. The odds of legislators as a group doing anything that would injure the pofession is just about science fiction.
Aside from resistance to tort reform generally, the possibility of decreasing the awards for Cosntitutional violations is pretty bad. Almost everybody can sympathize with this because it is not very hard to visualize a situation where it might be you yourself getting home invaded. Again, the notion of punishing the transgressor and rewarding those plaintiffs that have acted as "private attorneys general" make the losing defendant responsible for the attorney fees of the plaintiff. Congress, that body of legislating lawyers, legislated this notion into being in 1976 by adopting the Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Act. By 1995, Congress had included fee-shifting provisions in almost 200 pieces of legislation. The point is-your national legislators included these monetary incentives so that attorneys would specifically pursue these types of claims and the bad guy would get a legal kick in the nuts.
As far as determining what a fair fee is, there are a couple of methods: lodestar and complexity. The former is a simple by the hour charge multiplied by how many lawyers were on the case and at what rate. If a case is simple you might go little lower but if a case is complex you might charge sugnificantly more-by the way the judge determines if the fee is fair and is unlikely that most fees schemes will adjusted very much.
The idea of attaching a penalty to an officer doing a TRR is a disaster in the making.
It wil have the affect of officers using reportable force, and not documenting it, for fear of these penalties. This in turn will lead to officers falsifying reports, and thus greater exposure to lawsuits.
While I'll admit I'm hammered right now, but I believe my logic on the above is sound. Attaching ANY penalty to TRR's would seem counterproductive to the city.
If the city is tired of paying out millions in settlements then they should hire some real lawyers for the corporation council, not the neices, nephews, sons, daughters etc. of asshole polititians. Stop paying out $5,000.00 settlements just to get rid of them. FIGHT THEM. The Corporation Council's Office is a "LAW FIRM" that even the dummest of the dumb would not hire, but then again there is city hall.
TO: 11:58:29
It is hard to fight a case when you have real estate and other family type lawyers in the CORP. COUNCIL'S OFFICE. FIND GOOD TRIAL LAWYERS AND PUT THEM ON THE PAYROLL.
For each "good" lawyer hired the city could dump five real-estate lawyers.
It is also tough to fight a bullshit case when you have EDDIE BURKE constantly declaring that these settlements aren't enough and the plaintiff should get more. Who the hell is this ASSHOLE working for. He should be indicted
2:04, are you the one working int the DOC?
Ahhh, motivation. Nothing like it! I used to want to save the world....now, I just want to save my ass.
to 10-17-2006 10:23 Not a rumor my friend, true. Wish it was a bad dream, but unfortunately its not. Hopefully we can have some good informative posts about this. Hopefully common sense rules over stupidity, but I highly doubt it, cause if people thought being the police sucked before wait till these policies go into effect. I tell you this.........its no street people writing these orders either so welcome to the age of the "do nothing" police.
Some one with 20 CRs with at least one exonerated - PLEASE grieve this. I would love to see how the department justifies "punishing" an officer by putting him/her in a behavioral alert program - and more importantly - taking him/her off a team/unit - when you have been exonerated at least once. So I guess innocent until proven...innocent just doesn't cut it anymore.
RE: The Job
First off, there seems to be a common misconception that the upper-level and mid-level exempts actually give a rats-ass about the 'lowly' rank and file.
Are there exceptions? Sure! However, just remember how they got where they are. They are all political hacks serving a political purpose. How long do you think that they would retain their positions if they went against Daley's dictates (and Cline's dictates are Daley's dictates).
Did you become the police because you thought people would care about you? PLEASE.......
You became the police because you either (a) always wanted to be the police, (b) come from a police family, or (c) needed a job.
THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT CARE ABOUT COPPERS ARE THEIR FAMILIES AND OTHER COPPERS.
Something to remember.
If you're so miserable, so unhappy, so disgruntled then just move on to greener pastures. The job is what it is! You knew that or should have known that when you came on.
RE: Lawsuits
I understand when some of you say that the city shouldn't settle but I also know that the vast majority of the people that say that, have never been a defedant in a federal civil-rights suit.
There is nothing more unnerving and brings reality home (except possibly being a defendant in a crimainal case) than being ordered to give a full financial disclosure. It isn't at all a pleasant experience (neither was the trial). Even if you know you did nothing wrong and did everything by the book, do you really want to chance losing everything you worked so hard for?
And for what? To be forced to give it all to some shithead and his attorney? Think about it?
Do I think the city should settle cases? Certainly it depends on many factors. The 'anonymous' attorney brings up many valid points.
Did it feel good to win the case I was involved in? You bet it did!!! Would I want to live through that again (knowing I am right) HELL NO! I'd rather have the city throw them a bone and be grateful for it.
Until you've been there, you haven't earned the right to comment on this issue. PERIOD!
If you've been there and want your financial future held in the hands of a jury or judge, then the more power to ya. Once was enough for me and I was 100% legit.
RE: TRRs and CRs
I've been on for over 20 and looking apprehensively towards retirement. Had more than my share of CRs and filed countless weapon's discharge, officer's battery, tactical response, and iod reports. I've never been anywhere but patrol so I can only speak from that perspective.
Sorry--but I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. (Again sorry - excuse the cliche) generally, where there's smoke there's fire. If you're pulling 20+ CRs in a five year period there is definetly something wrong.
I've dealt with a lot of shitheads and hardcore criminals in my time. The vast majority of them know and understand the dangerous game we all play. Catch 'em dirty and they'll generally go along with the program if you treat them with some semblance of common decency. This is not 'RESPECT' -- which is an entirely different topic altogether. It's when you treat a shithead like a shithead that usually gets you a number. Again, if you're pulling 20+ CRs in 5 years there's a problem.
TRR's are another matter altogether. Ten or even twelve are arguably low limits. Worked in 014 for many, many years back before it got gentrified and the 'zone' was the 'zone' and 'dogpatch' was the 'dogpatch'. A weekend didn't go by where my partner and I didn't have to fight with some drunk or another. Of course there were no TRRs back then. So this number really needs to be re-evaluated.
You can be a good working copper and file countless TRRs simply beacuse of the district where you work. It's a reflection of the attitude of the people you come in contact with and have to deal with, rather than a reflection of your character and professionalism (or lack there of).
More than my two cents worth....
This is a fact, not rumor. In addition,when you are doing a seatbelt misson, you MUST have four cars assigned to it. If there are no cars available in your district, the watch commander is allowed to seek additional cars from another district who MUST give them up! It seems to get worse everyday.
Kateykakes- As much as I'm enmbarrassed to admit this, here in Chicago each District in the patrol division of which there are 25, must do a seatbelt mission everyday on every watch. The official postition of the City is that it helps catch criminals. The real reason is that it makes money. Our beloved Mayor and police Superintendent have turned us from a Police department into a revenue collection agency.
10/17/2006 02:04:18 PM
Spoken like a true 009th District Asshole. Bunch a whiney little b!+ches.
they want us to tow cars but we no longer go to court so we get 0 the city gets it all. we write an anov and again the people get no trial when they show up it is pay up or else!
Hey, I heard that the 009th dist. 1st watch, W/C had a cook out party for his troops on midnights for doing an outstanding job? CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THIS???
10/17/2006 02:04:18 PM
Spoken like a true 009th District Asshole. Bunch a whiney little b!+ches.
10/18/2006 06:09:00 AM
Trust me, that nimrod isn't from 009 and never will be!!!!!
I work in the 009th District. I no longer carry a bag in the car. My ticket books sit im my locker. They are covered with dust. I stopped writing when a fellow PO got a CR over a parking ticket. I carry 2 GO reports and 1 traffic crash report in the glove box. I take a cruise through the beat to see the new memorials of the gang bangers that didn’t complete their tour of banging from the prior night then I just kick back. God Bless TULSA Power, God Bless the CPD Officers
Moreover, you should really stop and consider who your legislators are-by and large whether Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Centrist or Green they are highly likey to be attornies. The odds of legislators as a group doing anything that would injure the pofession is just about science fiction.
Well, written response. You must be a lawyer, right?
Anyway, you should stop and consider who votes those attornies-turn-legistators into office: the taxpayers, the people loosing the millions of dollars.
I love how some say 20 CR's in 5 years is a lot. Less than 5 a year. Less than one a month. If you make an arrest EVERY DAY, with at least one head thats 20 people a month at LEAST. 240 at least a YEAR. If you're on a tac team this is what you do. Now what if just ONE of those guys each month makes the "He didn't give me my cell phone" beef (You know. It's in the car you locked him up in and had towed. There are at least 15 phones in there and he never ASKED YOU to get his phone, he's just pissed because you impounded his car kuz he had weed/gun/rock + was an asshole) How can you combat this? You CAN'T! I can understand if you have a pattern of SUSTAINED beefs, but how can someone be penalized for UNFOUNDED/EXONERATED or ever unsustained? You know how many beefs I get because of OTHER COPPERS shit? I'm still on the CR#. It still counts against ME, but I didn't do shit. I'm the unknown Male officer and the Sergeant doing the CR# just ASSUMES its me when he reads the paper or looks at the A&A's. Again, this counts against me not because I was there or did it, but because a guy lookin at the sheets picks me out to "Get rid of it.. it means nothing" Thats fine, I'll go and do NOTHING and enjoy having all these clueless asshole trying to catch the bad guy. Priceless!
It isn't at all a pleasant experience (neither was the trial). Even if you know you did nothing wrong and did everything by the book, do you really want to chance losing everything you worked so hard for?
And for what? To be forced to give it all to some shithead and his attorney? Think about it?
_____________________________
Again, we need full and independant investigations into these civil rights lawyers. Who are they? Where did they come from? Who is their family members? Who are their polictical connections? What politicians get a cut of the settlements? etc.
It biggles my mind to see Daley just pass off $18M to some no-name bozo attorney.
To SAD-BUT TRUE:
Here is my two cents worth, Go F*@! yourself you righteous prick. Don't talk about fire where there is smoke cause this aint the job you had when you came on 20years ago. People did'nt complain the way it is now and if you dont have any beefs its because you really are'nt doing work! Plain and simple! Although I might not have 20 yrs on I have enough to at least say that I've had CR's given to me for absolutely nothing....as a matter of fact ....for doing my job. As far as you locking up "hardcore criminals" I highly doubt you ever encountered one so please save it for the PPO's. You can be the most respectful, honest, true blue cop out there, but get a guy dirty (either selling his rocks/blows/weed/, getting his pistol) and watch how all of this gets flushed down the toliet cause "you" are putting him back into county and the only recourse he knows is.........well you guessed it.........a C.R.#. Its common knowledge Sadbut True that in the "bad Districts" the gang bangers and their family memebers have been doin this for quite some time. I'm not the kinda person to rip another especially a copper but when I read comments like yours it pisses me off. Although I do agree with you on the TRR issue I completely disagree with you about your "where there's smoke there's fire comment" You could not be more farther from the truth. Sorry oldtimer, but I've treated every person with respect I've ever dealt with and I have about 9years on, all southside too, and speaking from my experience if someone treats you like a jag then he receives same, if respect and courtesy is received then it is given. Now thatsmy2cents.
I love it....do work and they will punish you up to and including termination.
Then when you slow down and just answer calls while throwing in the parkers and occasional mover, they complain and try to jam you up that way.
Just ignore them. There isnt a damn thing they can do other than mess with your start times,
( I keep a daily ledger of all contact made with bosses ) and you can combat that as well if you are patient and calm.
Document everything boys and girls. Everytime they try to change an attempt burglary to a criminal damage to property make them verbally order you to. Dont accept the bullshit written attached note. In fact copy it and save it.
Im sorry but 90% of the bosses we have are fuckin jagoff ego maniacs.
They all AND I DO MEAN ALL will stick it in your ass in a heart beat. Trust nobody but yourself. They cant do shit to you if you are smart. Now go make 20 years and get the fuck out! Make these asshole bosses cry for police work.
They are a bunch of balless ass kissers who are only concerned with themsleves.
Kateykakes- As much as I'm enmbarrassed to admit this, here in Chicago each District in the patrol division of which there are 25, must do a seatbelt mission everyday on every watch. The official postition of the City is that it helps catch criminals. The real reason is that it makes money. Our beloved Mayor and police Superintendent have turned us from a Police department into a revenue collection agency.
10/18/2006 05:44:34 AM
Lt.,
Here in PA, I think that seatbelt offenses are secondary and you have to be stopped and cited for another traffic violation first.
I do know sometimes there are "Click it or Ticket" programs that are run from time-to-time, which is pretty much along the same lines of the DUI enforcements that are set up.
I'm assuming that seatbelt offenses aren't secondary in IL, or is the mission just something that's implemented in Chicago?
BTW, I really appreciate you all answering my questions. I don't mean to be a P.I.T.A., but I'm the curious type...I learn something new here everyday.
Remember when the "TRR" program began and how THEY told us it would never be used against us? WTF!!!? Another LIE!!! These ball-less M/F's better get there heads out of their anuses. This city is a laughing joke. What else do they think they can do to mess things up? All they want us to be are security guards. Next they'll tell you not to aggressively patrol the hot spots you work in. Just answer calls from your radio. Nothing extra. The days of the working copper are over. More taxes and less police service for the tax payers.
the message is loud and clear city hall and 35th street--do nothing-just answer your calls and back each other up. and of course collect yo checks on da 1st and 16th.
I believe it was in the last year or so they changed the law in illinois so that a seat belt offense can be used as a primary reason to pull over a vehicle. So just like no turn signal or not stopping at a stop sign, you see someone driving without a seat belt we (in IL) have pc to pull them over.
What I find real interesting is that a seat belt infraction has always been a moving violation and written as such. Now since this little change we (in Chicago) write the the seat belt infraction as a non moving violation out of our parking book. Now I understand why the city tells us to do it, so they get the money because it falls under a Chicago Code, but how is this flying with the state?
The problem is not city hall,headquarters, bosses, or even the citizens. It's US. We are just too damn dumb to realize it. Why do we continue to get angry over this bullshit. STOP BEING THE POLICE. THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT. Apparently we as Chicago Police officers suffer from the "Domestic Spouse Syndrome". The more we get beat down for doing our job the more we do. Does this make any sense. What do we get for our work? What fool would bring in arrests,tickets,etc.,for Bosses who could care less about us? Oh I get it we do it for merit promotions. Lets understand something people no Boss in is right mind is going to get rid of his best workers by promoting him/her. You keep their stats up, you make them look good at the DOC meetings,and you justify their positions thus helping them retain their over inflated salaries. All those honorable mentions and ribbons don't mean a damn thing it's just a tool to keep your minds temprorarily off the real issue at hand and that's the fact your not getting promote and to ease the pain when that cr comes down reccomnding 15 days. Wise up
I was making my choice between SCC and internet porn....sadly I chose SCC
Well, thank you.
Anonymous 12:08:09 pm--
"Here is my two cents worth, Go F*@! yourself you righteous prick ..."
I'm neither a prick or self-righteous. I am however a copper with a little bit of experience expressing an opinion -- just as you are. This is supposed to be an open forum for discussion. So why must things always digress to personal attacks?
"I have enough to at least say that I've had CR's given to me for absolutely nothing ..."
You're absolutely right. So have I and so has almost every other copper. What's your point? More people will call and beef?
So what's new? That's always been a problem with the system we have. You can be placed in the 'behavioral intervention system' right now for less.
ASO 05-02 states:
--- A pattern of Complaint Register allegations which suggests to the
exempt commanding officer, the Chief Administrator of the Office of
Professional Standards, and/or the Assistant Deputy Superintendent
of the Internal Affairs Division that placement into the Behavioral
Intervention System may be warranted. ---
There is no magic number here just "a pattern" and guess who decides what "a pattern" is.
Granted the 'behavioral intervention system' is different than the 'personal concerns program' but the result is the same -- you've been identified and placed in a program based upon your alleged behavior. --Nothing new here.
"People didn't complain the way it is now and if you don't have any beefs its because you really aren't doing work! Plain and simple!"
Never said I didn't get CRs -- on average I get two maybe three a year. And to correlate 'work' with the number of CRs you get is a very, very old song and in my opinion ludicrous. You said yourself that you got a number "for doing absolutely nothing."
As for people complaining more now than in previous times -- I don't know (personally I doubt it.) Worked in one of the 'original' CAPS districts when this ridiculous program started. The CPD actually held public meetings to teach people how to obtain CRs -- that's a fact. I'd be interested to know what statistical data you are referencing to make your statement.
"As far as you locking up 'hardcore criminals' I highly doubt you ever encountered one so please save it for the PPO's."
Again a personal attack. There's a wonderful cliche that goes -- the problem with youth is that it's wasted on the young -- I've done my share of police work in 'my' day. Do I bust my ass like I used to when I only had nine years on -- HELL NO!!! Does that make me a dogass -- hardly. You don't know me, what I've done, what I've lived through and for you to make an assumption based upon my opinion simply proves the cliche true.
"Its common knowledge ... in the "bad Districts" the gang bangers and their family members have been doing this for quite some time. ... when I read comments like yours it pisses me off."
Your right it is common knowledge -- nothing new here. Bangers and their families complained in 'my' time just as they complain in 'yours' just as they will in the next generation's time. Certain classes of people will complain just to complain. As I originally stated, I've only worked in patrol and my opinion is based on that perspective. I don't know how things are else where and don't pretend to.
My comments weren't meant to 'piss you off' but to stimulate discourse and express an opinion based upon my experience.
"I've treated every person with respect ... if someone treats you like a jag then he receives same, if respect and courtesy is received then it is given."
Everyone throws the word 'respect' around these days without giving it a second thought. Unfortunately, most people have forgotten that extending common human decency and courtesy is not the same as respect.
Respect is not owed, it is not given, IT IS EARNED!
It is earned through your actions and extended to you by those who you come in contact with.
What gang-banging shithead or mudering thug is deserving of your (or anyone's respect)? That doesn't mean you can't extend common courtesy to them.
I know that it is easier said than done, but you have to rise above the scum you deal with and not let them bring you down to their level. Once you're there, they have you.
Every time that I read a statement of "sit back and do nothing" I feel sick to my stomach. Don't you people live in this city? Don't you people have families and children? We are the 1st and only line of defense to keep them safe.
I took this job not to be hero, or to prove a point, and certainly not for the pay. I took this job because I do live in this city, and I do have a family and kids. It is my job to keep them safe. And sitting on my ass doing nothing or writing that parker to hand in at the end of the day doesn't do anything to keep this city or my family safe.
Sit down and take a few minutes and determine why it is that you took this job. If it was simply to do your 25 and collect a pension, then you, my friend, are an IDIOT!!!! There are a whole lot easier and more thankful jobs out there than this one (most of them pay a whole lot better too).
I say all of that to say this--Yes, I will buy a ticket to your benefit for excessive force or calling someone a bad name. But no, I will not buy a ticket for the medical expenses benefit of your wife that was raped and beaten while you were sitting on your fat ass writing a parking ticket when you should have been doing something to take that 3 time convicted felon off the street before they attacked your family!!!!
If you had more than 3 years on the job when they came out with TRRs and believed they would never be used against you then you were fuckin stupid. Sorry dude, but if you can't figure out in 3 years that this job is who you know and everything else is to fuck you and anyone else over without clout then I don't know what to tell you.
I agree with sharky, but I think he might be missing something. Everyone who might be effected by this supposed new rule are management positions. They can dump anyone for any reason from any management unit or management district position for any reason and their is nothing you can do about it. This is all fallout micro management from the SOS scandal that will soon disappear just like all the rest of the great ideas from 35th.
who cares if you get booted off a tact team. There is absolutely no incentive to work on tact/gangs anymore. You are expected to work a full day now and if you work in a slower district you get sent to some shithole neighborhood on the westside. (sorry been there done that) give me a days beat car in area 3 and I will be happy.
Every time that I read a statement of "sit back and do nothing" I feel sick to my stomach. Don't you people live in this city? Don't you people have families and children? We are the 1st and only line of defense to keep them safe.
Yea and I will keep my family safe, fuck the rest. I bet you work on the inside and have done so your whole sorry fuckin career.
3 time convicted felon off the street before they attacked your family!!!!
Where the fuck do you live fantasy island.
Half the time they let the 5 time convicted pedafile get probation. Let me guess??? Your a female and you work the craps office inside?
If you catch the 3 time offender he/she will sue you for not catching them sooner. Then you will lose your home and then the ped will walk anyways. LMAO
There are numerous defense attorneys that encourage their "clients" to file a CR# so that they can bring that up in court that the officer is under investigation by the department over misconduct in the case. They hope that this will throw some doubt into the case so their "client" gets off. I have seen this tactic used repeatedly
Per the legal affairs section, the seat belt tickets are to be written on moving citations. Originaly they were written in the parker book but that was changed a while back.
To 11:26pm 18OCT06
My response to your original post was because of your statement of "well if theres smoke theres fire". I'm gonna "critize" it and I'm making it a personal attack as you say becauseuare ASSUMING that every officers CR# could have been avoided by just treating people with a little decency. This is without taking into consideration every officers own personal situation (meaning....arrest history, awards,place of assignment, time on job so on and so on). It is a "personal" statement and I and every other person that are in the same boat would take it personal. As I stated earlier, I don't like getting into pissing matches with fellow P.O.'s but you sound like an ass my friend, typical of this department to always assume instead of investigate. I'm sorry, stupdid comments deserve a response so please just learn that not everyone is like you. "Dont sink to their level and rise above" please man, c'mon. I'd seriously like to know where you've been working for the past 20 years, really. Do you think that there are P.O.'s out there that routinely insult, disrespect every other person out there? Afraid not buddy. Treat a murderer with a little decency?! Your kidding right?! Like I said earlier I'd love to know where you've been hiding for the past 20years. Maybe if all the people with your kinda mentality would leave then maybe, just maybe things might start looking bright. We reward people with clout, we praise doggs cause they don't rock the boat, and the people who really do the work always get kicked in the balls. Since when should I care what amurdering dope dealing thugg thinks about me? Every P.O. I've worked with has always shown courtesy to citizens and that goes for me also, but when do you draw a line? When that person spits at you? Threatens to kill your wife? your family? or put a CR# on you? No amount of courtesy can change the fact that unfortunately we are not liked by the common citizen let alone criminals. You know what counts, the respect of my fellow P.O.'s, bosses, and my family. These comments always end up as you say "personal attacks" because of people like you preachin your nonsense. You wanna post dumb comments, get ready to have some intelligent ones come back at you. Explain this, define your meaning or give an example of "human decency" please. I'd like u to explain this please..... it comes down to this,dirtbags will be dirtbags no matter how nice, great or respectful you treat them. Now thats a fact. Hopefully you can retire peacefully my friend and I hope you always stay safe.
Yea and I will keep my family safe, fuck the rest. I bet you work on the inside and have done so your whole sorry fuckin career.
And no, as matter of fact I have never worked at a desk or under one for that matter. However, that is the attitude of every do nothing cop that I run into...when in actually if all you want to do is write parking tickets and "keep your family safe and fuck the rest," it is you my friend that should be working under a desk. That way you could get home before dark and protect your family from the guys that the rest of us that actually do some good for this city are trying to catch every day.
10/19/2006 08:21:28 AM
Where the fuck do you live fantasy island.
Half the time they let the 5 time convicted pedafile get probation. Let me guess??? Your a female and you work the craps office inside?
If you catch the 3 time offender he/she will sue you for not catching them sooner. Then you will lose your home and then the ped will walk anyways. LMAO
Actually the place I live is right here in this city. Once again, it is AOL, computer, do-nothings like yourself that are the problem w/ this department. Make like a big-boy and stop playing playstation and do some police work. In case you don't understand an intellectual comment. I am referring to your use of LMAO. Big-boys really don't use terms like that.
Anyway, back to the street (you know that place that you are so scared to actually enter)....it is your job as a police officer to continue putting that 5 time convicted "pedafile" away(it is actually pedophile, but I am sure daddy didn't want you to know how to actually spell it or you might tell someone).
Anyway, the reason being is because you don't know if the next victim of that pedophile is your child. So, what I am trying to say...it is your J-O-B to lock-up that person every chance you get no matter what the outcome of his criminal trial is....or just continue being the lazy paper writing prick that you are and lie awake at night knowing that you have done absolutely nothing to make this city better today.
I'm a detective and I don't do shit. I have 2 years left and fuck Daley & Cline. Let the motherfuckers kill each other, who cares...not them and surely not us. I go home and spend my working hours with my family. 23 down and 2 to go!
TO 10/19/2006 09:25:44 AM
A defense attorney may, after assesing the facts of the case, encourage a client to file a cr# if one is warranted. The CPD has established the apparatus through which complaints can be brought against offending law enforcement agents, the defense attorney did not conjure the procedure out of the ether. The ethical mission of the attorney is to be a zealous advocate for his client. Failure to encourage the client to file a CR# after the client has expressed a fact pattern that would lead reasonable minds to conclude that a complainable offense had occured would just bout be malpractice. Nor would it be reasonable for the representing attorney to encourage a client to misrepresent a CR# where that misrepresentation would expose the client to potential criminal liability-based on the penalties for submitting a fraudulent affadavit in support of the CR.
Undoubtedly, there are some out there that think ecouraging a false complaint will not likely result in any down side for the defense attorney-the complete opposite is rather more true. Don't forget that criminal defendants are rarely the most upstanding creatures. It is not difficult to visualize one or another of them admitting that the defense attorney put them up to it after relatively minimal "persuasion" by law enforcement. As you can see this is far from ideal-it could potentially result in less fees.
The low life Det. who is proud of not doing shit...Thanks a lot scuzball. It's my family and 1000s of other families in the city that you screw, not Daley and Cline
The job will be way better off with a dog like you outta here.
I hope you choke on your first pension check A-Hole.
It's a dogs world now and all because of what? All the dogs are rejoicing. The uniform is tainted. All the hung badges at 35th....they gave the uniform meaning. Did we forget that?
Dear 10/19/2006 06:13:21 PM
Im not lazy, Im not scared. I just dont give a flyin rats ass anymore. I found a new way to make a living on the side thats far away from police work. Keep drinking the kool aid. You will get fired eventually.
I bet 2 years from now you are bitching about all the benifits that have been taken away. You are single now with no kids. wait, that will change. I make as much and more than I would working special 5 times a month. And I dont have to deal with bosses or idots like you.
When the Stupidy goes away from this circus department maybe Ill be the police again. But for now..no fuckin way. Its not worth it. Your a Sgt. to be with a face full of ass smear. Keep kissin it, You will get there. But without your soul. My family is very safe...The Mrs knows how to use a firearm. Cmon over!
i'm with the last poster on that one.....you should be real proud of yourself "detective", you're one of those guys who's a complete dick when we call the area and you blow us off, are'nt you? thanks alot, you should just go now. make some of our lives easier while we still have to work, softball.
TO: Anonymous
10/19/2006 02:28:06 PM
Your tone has changed somewhat and I'm glad for it -- still sarcastic and I don't appreciate being called an 'ass' but you're entitled and I've been called much worse. Thank you for your well wishes an I extend the same to you and yours.
This is hardly a pissing match, merely a discussion. You have your toughts, feelings, and opinions & I have mine. Funny thing is your post made me really laugh (no insult intended) -- it reminded me of the day when I was much younger and thought and felt exactly like you do now. Time and this job changes you in profound ways. Remember how you think and feel right now and see if you still think and feel that way in another 10 years.
I've worked in 011, 013, 014, 015, 023, 024, & 025 (and no I've never worked inside and still don't). Moved around alot -- too long in the same place makes you stale and complacent. Did a little undercover decoy work for about six months when I was much younger and still relatively new -- most fun and the best time I ever had on this job. Worked in CD for roughly five years in the district as well (now it's called an incident car back when I did it, it didn't have a name or I don't remember that it did). So much for my history...
When someone physically attacks you or yours -- of course it's personal and you're justified in giving a 'personal' response. But most of the time the attack isn't against you the individual its against the uniform you wear and what you represent.
How often in roll call have you been told that gang 'so-and-so' is threatening to kill a police officer? Very rarely is a specific officer targeted. Their threat is against what you represent not you the individual. This is a critical distiction and very difficult to accept. Of course we all feel and interpret it as a 'personal' threat/attack upon us, but it really isn't.
" ... I'm making it a personal attack as you say because you are ASSUMING that every officers CR# could have been avoided by just treating people with a little decency."
I was puzzled by this comment so I went back and re-read both of my previous posts. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. I make no such assumption. Apparently, my intended meaning isn't clear.
Are there people that will complain in retaliation for being arrested? Of course. Is this a personal attack by that individual upon you the officer? It can be (given an underlying history of contact) but generally its an attack upon the 'police' not you specifically. No more than your arrest of an individual is a personal action against them -- its an enforcement action based upon their conduct. You the individual officer are affected in a personal way and interpret the complaint to be a personal attack. Naturally, this is gross generalization of the issue.
"Do you think that there are P.O.'s out there that routinely insult, disrespect every other person out there? Afraid not buddy."
You are correct and usually this is not the case. Unfortunately, there are a those among us that do -- I've seen it and you probably have as well. But my underlying thought and intent was to say that most (certainly not all) non-sense CRs could have been avoided had the officer acted a little differently. Hence my comment 'don't let them drag you down to their level.' It is very, very difficult to detach yourself when the scum you are processing is sitting in front of you and mother-f***ing you and your family. It is all too easy to get sucked right into their world and once you're there -- shit happens. Been there, done that and not proud of it. It may make you feel better in the moment but does it really change anything?
Verbal abuse CRs are so common they have finally put them in a category of their own. This is a non-sense CR that can generally be avoided -- not always but in general terms. The same goes for most other non-sense CRs -- they can generally be avoided through your own actions. If you remove non-sense CR's from the picture -- what's left? Generally, pure retaliatory fabricated bullshit and things that more-likely-than-not warrant some investigation.
There a some scum-sucking bottom-feeders among us that have no business wearing the uniform. Unfortunately, there are also young, inexperienced, aggressive officers that try to do the right thing in the wrong way and step into shit big time. Do they deserve to be raked over the coals? NOPE! Political expediency doesn't allow for such mistakes -- doesn't make it right, just a fact.
Think about the CR numbers that you have gotten. Are there any that 'maybe' could have been avoided had you acted differently? I know that a lot of mine fall into that category. It's very difficult to detach yourself from the situation sometimes; however, it is what is expected of us -- much, much easier said than done.
"... Treat a murderer with a little decency?! Your kidding right?! ... Explain this, define your meaning or give an example of "human decency" please ..."
No, I'm not kidding. It goes directly to the heart of my underlying argument -- action and consequence. We are 'all' human beings regardless of our actions. Some, among us behave like animals -- pure, unadulterated predators. Does that make them any less human? Monsters, yes but still human none the less. We all laugh, we all cry, we all love, we all hate. etc ...
I'm not saying be nice. I'm not saying treat a shithead with kindness. I'm not saying give him 'respect'. I'm saying be professional, that's all -- argueably given certain situations a very difficult to do. It's also very difficult to accept and acknowledge that there are officers that aren't.
Examples of human decency, sure here's a few ...
Do you take your prisoner to the head or do you let him piss or shit all over himself? It happens, I've seen it.
Do you cuff your prisoner to the ring and leave it at that or do you ratchet the cuff so tight around his wrist that his hand turns blue? It happens, I've seen it.
Do you get your prisoner a cup of water or take him to the water fountain when he says he's thirsty or do you sit there, tell him to f*** off, and drink your pop, coffee, or whatever in front of him? It happens, I've seen it.
Do you keep your cool and either let some shithead woof or put him in the lockup or do you stoop to his level and beat the piss out of him while he's handcuffed? It happens, I've seen it.
Do you get your prisoner medical attention when its obviously needed (regardless of cause) or do you ignore his pleas and go about your business as if nothing is wrong? It happens, I've seen it.
These things happen. Just because you don't do them or haven't seen them doesn't mean that they don't. I'm not above that either and never said I was. But, I struggle each and every day to be just that. I'll be the first to admit I've done some really stupid things in my career but trying to do the right thing in the wrong way, doesn't make it right. It only gets you fired (if you're lucky).
" ... it comes down to this, dirtbags will be dirtbags no matter how nice, great or respectful you treat them ..."
You're absolutely right -- a thug, is a thug, is a thug. You can't change their underlying character but you may just be able to influence their behavior through your own demeanor.
Stay Safe.
The low life Det. who is proud of not doing shit...Thanks a lot scuzball. It's my family and 1000s of other families in the city that you screw, not Daley and Cline
I dissagree....this Detective probably is saving his/her own life by backing away. You work a case only to have the dickhead devine clan fuck it up and let the shitter go. Pick and choose your battles boys and girls. Get your check twice a month and find a talent that you can do on the side to make money that gives you gratification. I work in a district Where I can count with my groin how many bosses I trust there. Ive never worked with such a bunch of scared yellow belly bosses. I laugh at you how can you be this way coppers. Wait till you get it rammed in your ass over nonsense. Then you will learn. Unless another copper is calling for help...it didnt happen.
Be safe, laugh with your partner eat a nice dinner add go home laughing at the bosses. This is a great job. I drive around a wav at useless voters for a nice chunk a change.
To 10/19/2006 08:40:52 PM
Give me a break. There is no repercussion to the defense attorney for getting his client to file a CR#. It happens all the time. It doesn't matter if there was any wrongdoing on the side of the officer or if it even happened. All that has to happen is to bring out in open court that the incident is under internal investigation. Even if the defendant doesn't cooperate with the department investigation, nothing will happen to the attorney or the defendant. What do you think the Judge thinks when he hears this? There is such a liberal namby pansy process to file a CR#. All it takes is an anonymous phone call with absolutely no credible evidence to back it up or even prove who the caller is and nothing happens to the accuser if it is false. Yeah they could be civilly liable if the case is proven false but how many times has that happened? The odds are in favor of the defendant and his criminal case.
You obviously don't appear too often in criminal trials to witness what goes on in our Cook County courthouse or seen Chicago "Justice" in action. Lawyers don't care if there client did the crime or not. The lawyers job is to cast doubt on the state's case and that is a great way to do it. Why would the defendant ever say that the lawyer encouraged him to do it?
TO 10/20/2006 08:35:02 AM
I darken the doorsteps of Cook County, the Northern District, and the Seventh Circuit with profitable regularity. Further, I think I have a reasonable grasp of what these cues trigger in the minds of the trier of law and the triers of fact.
07:59 52, while I agree wholeheartedly with your points, I vehemently disagree on one point. I understand that people lash out at the "uniform" or want to fight the system, not me. However, I domn't care, a threat against a police officer is a threat against me, when they try to fight, they are fighting with me, not my uniform. Next time I will feel better when someone tries to hurt or kill me, they want to kill my uniform not me. My family would feel so much better too burying me because the offender was being personal. Thanks
WANT TO GET A LAWYER'S ATTENTION?
File a complaint against his law license.
It causes him/her a shit storm.
some more info read the Chicago tribune sunday section 2 perspective article by Maurice Possley on 22 Oct 06 about the CR number thing. Its to weed out corrupt officers but really a scam on us.
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