No More Sigs?
Our old friend Paul Huebl is still out there blogging and he brought this to our attention:
In a move that’s rocking the rank and file, the Chicago Police Department has abruptly banned the use of the once-trusted Sig/Sauer P320 pistol as an authorized duty weapon. The order came down swiftly, leaving thousands of officers scrambling. The official reason? Alarming reports that the weapon can fire without the trigger being pulled.
For years now the gun-maker has brushed off horror stories about negligent discharges, usually blaming human error. After all, it’s easier to blame the gun than admit to a deadly mistake. Just think back to Alec Baldwin’s tragic shooting on a New Mexico movie set—he insisted he never pulled the trigger, yet a woman lost her life. But experts were quick to point out that the revolver in question simply doesn’t fire on its own. This, however, isn’t Hollywood.
The Sig Sauer P320 has a documented pattern of discharges—many occurring while holstered. Lawsuits are piling up, and the manufacturer continues to deny fault, but the incidents are too numerous, too consistent, and too dangerous to ignore.
In a city already struggling to staff its police force and control spiraling violence, CPD brass made the call: better to pull the plug than risk another injury or death. The P320 is now officially de-authorized.
As Paul points out, the Sig is currently the issued sidearm for the US Army. We know a lot of ex-Army people and we haven't heard about negligent discharges or self-firing incidents. We haven't heard of any here either.
Paul also mentions this isn't a small expense - Sigs cost nearly a grand and along with magazines and holsters will easily run a few hundred more. He does add this to his report:
- Update: Under the current fraternal order of police labor contract, the City of Chicago is required to cover the cost of a new service weapon if the police department deauthorizes a previously approved firearm. Officers are not financially responsible when the department mandates a change in duty weapons. However, this is only for officers below the rank of Sergeant. Calculating the average replacement weapon cost indicates the city will be paying upwards of $1 million to affect this change.
If a Sig cost a grand and a new Glock is only $600, is the city making up the difference?
And how many Sigs are we talking about here? Because the pistol you bought and trained with at the Academy is a very personal choice. You train for around 400 hours on the range, breaking in the holster, drawing and holstering thousands of times and putting thousands of rounds through the most important tool on your belt.
Now you're starting over at zero? This is a very dangerous situation. How many cops are going to crease their legs, damage squad cars, lockers, roll call rooms, (or worse) in the coming months?
Labels: info for the police, safety issues
posted by SCC at 12:04 AM
86 Comments:
I used to work for cook county department of corrections. I always keep my glock, one in the chamber , close at all times. Never know when a rat will jump out of nowhere while i smoke my cigs.
I didn’t see an admin message about this? Is this just fan fiction?
agreed . i love sigs and own a couple but the p320 does have something wrong with it. too bad because the last gen DAO P226 is one of the best guns ever made. I've seen videos and spoke with gun experts and they all say the gun can go off . weird but true. Sig F*d this up and didn't do the right thing to take ownership and fix it.
Well if one of the complaints command staff and other officers in general have is uniformity, why not just make a glock 17 the standard duty weapon and have the city issue it and return the weapon if an officer quits or retires?
SIG P320's don't cost a grand. They're the same price as the other polymer striker fires. Now queue the Glock fanboys in 3..2..1..
Is there any evidence of accidental discharges by CPD with Sigs?
Who benefits from this? Which contractor or store will supply the new firearms?
“You train for about 400 hours at the academy”
That statement is laughable!
I’ve been tracking the allegations of uncommanded P320 discharges carefully. Other than a few instances before the “voluntary upgrade”, I have yet to find a single case of an uncommanded discharge that wasn’t a booger-hook or something else (like debris in the holster) interacting with the bang-switch. I’ll keep looking.
Something must have happened or are they being proactive, I would like to believe the latter as have heard rumors from range guys about being careful with them in a joking way.
The Sig P320 "shake awake" bug has been known since they rolled out this cheaply-made pistol 10 years ago. {snicker} Corporate greed and Pentagon corruption surrounding Sig Sauer is just coming to light now. (The greedy bastards are just using the sterling German/Swiss reputation that the brand once had in the 80s-90s before some American suits bought the company and slapped together this dangerous range toy.)
For those that don't know: to maximize profits they farmed out critical components of the P320 to steel factories in India and Mexico. To save $50 dollars manufacturing each pistol Sig gambled with police officers and soldiers lives. Those components are now failing under stress to prevent the firing pin from slamming forward without pulling the trigger when it gets bumped while seated inside a holster. To be clear most P320s don't have these faulty parts but you simply don't know and are rolling the dice. The Sig P320 is now considered the Pfizer Covid vaccine of American firearms.
If the city buys me a new gun that’s great. The gun needs to be my choice though, seeing as the original purchase was my choice.
the old Smith and Wesson 5946 is still one of the best ever. as is the P226.
The other double-action-only Sigs are still authorized—use whatever you’re most confident with. Frankly, I don’t care what you carry, as long as you can shoot it well. The department has some of the best rangemasters found anywhere. If you pay attention and train like a professional, your marksmanship can be top-tier.
But let’s be honest—too many officers are barely scraping by on qualification day. If your shooting isn’t where it needs to be, it’s time to face the facts, dig in, and sharpen your skills. We’ve all known someone whose star ended up in the Honored Star case. Don’t let yours be next.
"As Paul points out, the Sig is currently the issued sidearm for the US Army. We know a lot of ex-Army people and we haven't heard about negligent discharges or self-firing incidents. We haven't heard of any here either".
One big difference, Military issued signs have a manual safety
Psst..rumor has it there's a buy back program currently run out of the basement at St Sabina Church ask for the father phleger
About 1200 officers have the 320.
Will SIG make a trade deal. 320 for a 365 type of thing.
If you have to say “one in the chamber,” you’re a moron.
It’s not uniformity. The SIG P320 goes off when in the holster and when it’s dropped. There’s a fault with the slide mechanism. The army hates that model gun as well. Look it up. Countless videos and lawsuits of cops getting shot in the leg.
Well said!
“In a move that’s rocking the rank and file, the Chicago Police Department has abruptly banned the use of the once-trusted Sig/Sauer P320 pistol as an authorized duty weapon. The order came down swiftly, leaving thousands of officers scrambling.“
None of that has happened. There is currently no order that “came down swiftly.”
Same. I know the original P320 had the thick and heavy trigger that looked like it was pulled from the P226,229, etc. The new skinny trigger fixed the issue with the gun discharge when dropped. I have been following the P320 saga also and to me it seems that there's usually something that gets introduced into the holster, like a drawstring, for example that can pull the trigger.
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/26/nx-s1-5023043/sig-sauer-guns-military-new-hampshire-investigation
The Army had had issues with the gun from the very beginning, they chose it because the Army already went with Sig’s Spear Carbines. The runner up was the Glock 19X, the LEO version is the Glock G45, 17+1, G17/G19 hybrid Gen 5. Wisconsin has sued Sig and banned them for LE work, Texas, Ohio, Washington state has also sued and banned this ticking time bomb. Some land mines don’t always go off, but it doesn’t mean it’s not an explosive. Glock Haters may come and go, but in the history of LE there hasn’t been a more successful hand gun, throughout the world.
Glock Suckers are a thing here at CPD, also at the County as well.
I like the SW MP. A bit large but I'm a big guy.
365 is garbage. Let officers use the 226 again, not just grandfathered.
Amen
Haha when I went thru the academy I had the beretta 92d...the rest of the class bought the cheap ruger.til this day they still have rust and lint on them!
Agreed! Training will save your life...
Get a Walther if it's allowed... MUCH better trigger!!!
Agreed I had the P226 at county and it’s a great weapon system. I know I’ve been warned by a lot of people that the p320 is garbage. The p365 is great but for duty I went with smith m & p. Glock is great but I personally do not like they gun
Because the most sold around the world duty model Glock is the 19!
Ever watch one of those "oldies" groups from the 50's/60's at a concert or on tv? Rarely is it the same people who were originally in the group. Nothing but a big fraud. But the law lets a promoter buy the band's name and then fill it with imposters. I'll bet I could name a hundred products where the investors did the same. They buy the name then change the product to save a buck. One of the very sad sides of America.
I am pleased to announce a contract with CPD for the purchase of 5000 revolvers, speed loaders & holsters. (suicide strap extra) Welcome back 'revolver police'...
Revolvers never had this problem.
Nonsense. Carried 320 for years but it must have been a lazy one because it did nothing but sit in my holster until I pulled it out and it only when bang when I pulled the trigger. You can't be proficient with any firearm if you only qualify once a year and do nothing else.
Revolvers. .38 Special. Colt or Smith & Wesson. Blued Steel. Walnut Stocks. 4 inch Barrel.
Ammunition. . 38 Special Plus P. 158 grain Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollowpoint. Federal, Remington, or Winchester
Six (6) Rounds in Revolver and Twelve (12) in Belt Pouches
Marksmanship. 50 yards Prone and 50 yards Sitting. 25 yards Left Barricade and Right Barricade, Standing and Kneeling. 15 yards Standjbg
I call bullshit on the Sig discharge nonsense.
Nope, Try around 1700
This is false as of 10APR. Just checked the GO and no Sig models have been removed from the order. Last up date to the order was Jan24.
We have seen this example of the decrease of quality when the bean counters that now run companies try to save a few pennies. Cut back staff. Skimp on product manufacturing. Outsource.
I got on the job in 86. The department had just authorized the carrying of 45. cal. semi autos as a secondary weapon. Every district soon had bullet holes in the shitters in the mens locker rooms from the guys playing with their new toys while taking a shit. I always wandered if the girls toilets had bullet holes in the stalls from the girls playing with their guns...
Who cares lil Denny you’re not the police never will be tighten up your knee brace and STFU
LOL You're doing a horrible job friend. Try to keep up. (You won't find the most blatant cases on the internet anymore because Sig paid settlements in those cases to take them down.) Even if half of these cases are objects getting stuck in the holster (or cases of fraud and legal scams) then there's lots of Sig P320 hand grenades sitting in CPD holsters waiting to go off.
The fact is the day this pistol was released the P320 would go off if dropped. Sig dragged their feet and to took them nearly 2 years to fix that problem. Any pistol made within the last 40 years (especially a duty pistol) that goes off by being dropped from 3-6 feet is bush-league third-world engineering. Unacceptable and unsafe.
Something wrong? Understatement of the year friend. 2014-2015 models of the P320 would go off if simply dropped on a hard surface. They categorically denied this...until some hillbillies on You Tube proved this over and over...again and again. They finally were forced to "fix" this by fitting the pistol with a lighter trigger component. Now the US military discovered that some batches of the components were manufactured in sweat shops overseas to save a few dollars.
If that particular run of P320 sits in your Safariland holster or a thin Kydex holster and you bump it into a hard surface...the pistol "makes a grumpy". God forbid that barrel is pointing at your femoral artery, your junk or your loved one's head when that happens.
Here is a man experienced in the Chicago Way!
A manual safety doesn't make a difference unfortunately. There have been several cases in our military of it going off in the holster. It's the cheaply-made MIM parts inside of this piece of s***. Some of those faulty parts include the manual safety so they will fail if bumped under the right conditions. (Very rare conditions of course but it sure ain't zero percent.) This pistol was never properly tested by our military as it should have been.
Is Paul telling the truth? No one on the department or the blog seems to be aware of the order
You just not in the in crowd then
Not sure if the CPD banning the P320 is just an unfounded rumor or not. But the P320 being unfit as a duty gun (and it going off in a holster) certainly is not. This has NOTHING to do with officers negligently handling, cleaning or modifying these "shake awake pistols". I talked to the Michigan deputy whose BWC captured his P320 discharging in his holster after it bumped into the steering wheel of his patrol car while he was getting out. The dude is squared-away and a competitive shooter and he knows his firearms. This happened on 04Feb2016 and they never wanted money just an acknowledgment that the design is unsafe and faulty. Sig (and their online fan boys and police-haters) have attempted to discredit him and the Roscommon county sheriff's department. Absolutely pathetic. I've always loved Sigs but this is unacceptable. Don't be cheap. Keep the P320 as a backup range gun unloaded in your safe. Plenty of other great options for a duty gun out there...
Your post is 100% true and 100% irrelevant. You could be the best driver in the world but if you owned a 2009 Toyota Camry it would accelerate and crash on its own. You could be the best pilot in the world but if you were in the cockpit of a 2019 Boeing 747 Max it was designed to plunge into the ground. The P320 has had serious safety issues from jump-street. This is a safety and corruption issue not a police training issue.
It has from arsenal commitee, know your facts, just because you don’t know doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened
Sounds like Kimber...
Uhh, the 1911 wasn't too shabby...
All Colt Double Action Revolvers ( e.g., Official Police, Detective Special) made since 1908 are 100 percent Drop Safe. Colt patented this feature in 1905 and began producing Revolvers with this in 1908.
Smith & Wesson Double Action Revolvers made before WW2 are NOT Drop Safe. S&W Revolvers made during WW2 may or may not be Drop Safe.
Near the end of WW2, S&W added a Hammer Safety Block. ALL S&W Double Action Revolvers ( e.g., Model 19, Model 66, etc.) made since 1945 are 100 percent Drop Safe.
Drop Safe Weapons have been available since 1908!
This is NOT that hard to do.
There are THREE(3) components of a Semi Automatic Pistol " Weapons System": (1) Pistol, itself
(2) Magazine
(3) Ammunition
All must be investigated! It is possible---but unlikely-- that there could be a problem with the Cartridges ( Bad Ammo Lot with Sensitive Primer?) or Magazines.
Not being a Conspiracy Theory Nut, but raising a possibility.
The only thing I care about is that the officers are well trained and well equipped with the best possible service weapon and ammunition. By the way, my heart is very heavy to see that some young female officer surrender to depression in 018. Please look out for those officers around you that are suddenly very quiet.
Te only reliable gun we had was the Beretta. Lets bring it back!
glock is a great gun but so ugly and boring. no personality . but its dependable.
I meant for any other SIG. 226 456. Whatever.
Ditto on the beretta 92fs and also a hi-power carried both 45yrs ago. Still have them.
Dropped my python twice breaking the hammer both times and it never misfired. Still use it with my hillbilly friends
You’ll shoot your eye out kid!
I bought the Ruger. I learned to use it. Took effort.
https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program
Sig P220👍🏻👍🏻
https://youtu.be/m-_pM3pUIGM?si=2E1DhnK-xdjMXyOl
Above Commenter on Ammunition and Magazines: What about Maintenance?
Two Maintenance Issues:
(A) Maintenance requires field stripping and re- assembly. Is this being done properly?
(B) Lubrication. How much? How often? What Lube?
In Army, we used Rifle Bore Cleaner ( RBC) and the used Lubricant Small Arms ( LSA). ( In Alaska and Canada, we used Lubricant Arctic Weapons (LAW).)Both were replaced by Breakfree CLP mid-1980s.
Could unauthorized and/or contaminated Lube be somehow eroding/ corroding small pistol parts?
Just a thought.
Don't let 006 tact there...
That's hysterical.... was OPS called or was it handled in-house? Footpost at 63 Halsted for a month?
Just for the youngsters here, in 1986 did everyone in the districts rotate shifts every month? 1st, 2nd and 3rd watch? When did that end? I came on in late 1990s and remember old-timers (who were then respected for their wisdom gained from experience) reminiscing about rotating shifts.
I work in an Army arms room. The reason we have not had issues with the Sig yet is that every operator in the unit is still carrying their Glocks. The Glocks will be phased out as they wear out but they are still kicking.
In the new Army, the soldiers shoot a lot but few clean weapons anymore. Those Glocks have been used and abused. They are easily a decade old. Tgry have had tens of thousands of rounds through them. They still work perfectly. Tge only time a Glock quits is operator error. They put a light on too tight or break a screw in the slide trying to an an optic.
As for the 320, I would pass on that weapon. The trigger system is complicated.They will never take the abuse that the Glocks have.
I love my Glock 17 RTF but the S/W M/P 2.0 with a red dot is the superior option. One of the range instructors has shot his M/P 10's of 1000's of rounds...to the point where he routinely melts the fiber optic sight out of it. It is a proven accurate work horse. It has definitely proven itself. Unless you're a democRAT, you can't deny the numbers.
S&W had a hammer block before, in addition to the rebound system that also works to block the hammer, but it was less good than the 1945 design.
The pre-1945 hammer block was a pivoting lever in the side plate first designed in about 1910.
CWB may have a video that provides the answer for the ban....
My old Ruger was melted down by Ruger after malfunctioning on the range. I received a new striker fire Ruger which I wasn’t always to use because that particular weapon wasn’t approved by CPD. I ended up having to buy my own new Springfield which is nice.
I'll take a 1911 in .45 or even 9mm anyday.
Follow up to Comment RE: Pistol Maintenance and Lubrication
Need " Hands-on" Guidance from Keesing Bandit on recommended lubricants. (I have a S&W .357 with 6 inch barrel at home, as a " Training Aid".)
I think S&W got it right.
Someone asked one of the designers at S&W what they thought about the Glock.
"It is uglier than a bag of assholes."
Sadly S&W makes very few metal pistols anymore.
Most gunmakers have followed Glock in the race to the bottom since plastic is cheaper than metal.
I wish S&W still made metal pistols.
They make a 1911 and that CSX and that's pretty much it.
It will be there in a week or so just wait
I deeply regret buying the ruger over a S&W 5600 series years ago.
SIG makes a helluva fine pistol, always preferred them over the "Gronks".
Civilian here..my Glock 19 is great,it’s ugly but it never fails to fire when I pull the trigger!
Why does no one carry the beretta apx?
Rays, Acme and Kiesler haven't done much to push them. Also some, not all Beretta apx have poor triggers.
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