Monday, December 12, 2005

H.R. 218 Debacle

Well, according to the FOP website, the City has refused to qualify retirees based on "cited concerns of unresolved issues "including but not limited to the issues of liability, standards for the certification of retirement in "“good standing"” and a comprehensive and reliable identification system.”"

Pardon us, but what a pile of crap. In our humble opinions:
  • Liability - The city is obviously worried that if they "authorize" someone to carry a gun, they'd be held liable if that person goes around the bend. Fine, if the retirees decide to stick around this city, get them to sign a waiver or have them evaluated (on the City's dime) by a shrink before they retire. They trusted you with a gun for 29 years, now they're going to raise mental status? If the state keeps issuing them a FOID card, the city ought to drop this objection.
  • Retirement in "Good Standing" - Bullshit. If you retired with your badge, no outstanding beefs, eligible for your pension and were issued a retirement star and ID, that would seem to qualify "in good standing." This is by far the most unreasonable roadblock tossed up by the city.
  • Comprehensive and reliable ID system - More bullshit. You have a valid DL, FOID, a retirement ID, what more do they want? 99 times out of 100, they even have your gun registration numbers for your duty weapons because 99 out of 100 coppers keep their duty weapon. Your fingerprints have been on file since day one. What more do they want? DNA?
Someone (hello FOP!!) ought to be putting a little effort behind finding out why the city feels it's above Federal Law. This would make for an EXCELLENT political issue. It's been proven time and time again that the retirees are a voting block to be reckoned with - they got every retiree running for office elected AND they had something like an 85+% turnout for the pension board election. Someone could make quite a run for office by hitting the Retiree Breakfasts and pushing for explanations on this issue. Hmmm.

61 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fop will be no help on this issue. If I were a retired member I would look into having the NRA and their lawyers help the retired members with a law suit.

12/11/2005 11:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Good standing" is part of H.B. 218. It's open to interpretation, but basically it means no open beefs that would cause seperation.

Since retirement stars as we know them were put into place, it's basically been the same thing, "good standing" has been required to get a retirement star. Leave while facing seperation, fail to turn in your star, owe the city big time would keep a retirement star and ID from being issued.

Some connected people have been able to avoid these problems, but now that a retirement star and ID mean a lifetime of concealed carry, the city is having to be careful who gets them. All the city has to do is stop issuing retirement credentials and they're off the hook. H.B. 218 does not mandate those credentials. If the city stops issuing them, not much we can do.

However, too many retirement credentials are already out, plus the powers that be want theirs when they go. I would vote against any kind of psychiatric test upon retirement. All that would do is open Pandora's box to more problems. No, you retire in "good standing" no open beefs, no threat of being fired, then you get your credentials.

As long as King Daley is in the 5th floor, he'll stonewall this issue. The concerns of liability can be solved at the state and/or federal level by an immunity statute. Once the city is off the hook they won't have an argument. It also wouldn't help if King Richard II left office.

12/12/2005 12:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Loaded Dice said...

Got my HR218 permit in 24 hrs in Nevada. It usually takes about 2 weeks. Qualified with revolver & semi. Can now carry any caliber in revolver or semi. No charge by the county. (Oh & it doesn't snow here.)

12/12/2005 12:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Crimefile said...

This balony can all end with shall issue permits to all law abiding people like in nearly all of the rest of the states.

Illinois is a Bolshevik island all to itself where Liberty and Freedom are dead.

Daley can go pout in his frderal prison cell about the passage of this kind of legislation.

Daley expressed his outrage and he's the one trying to put the breaks on the law he hates.

I think this is worth some kind of a job action out of respect for our officers who gave this city good service for an entire career.

Perhaps it is time to discontinue writing any parkers and towing. That and stopping enforcement of city sticker violations would cause big cash flow problems.

12/12/2005 12:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

can anyone answer this? H.B. 218 has passed. its federal law. so what is stopping retiree's from carying? i mean i understand the requirments about qualifying and retiring in "good standing" but whats the worst that could happen if you are retired and you carry without qualifying? if i'm understanding correctly, the city is responsible for retiree's not being able to qualify. so can't they just carry anyway. i mean, before this bill was passed i cant think of a case where a retiree got convicted of a felony for having his piece on him. even the rare cases i know of where a jagoff copper locked up a retiree for having his piece it got thrown out in court. but now that the law has passed what could the jagoff copper charge a retiree with now? not qualifying? i dont think u have to worry about carrying.


p.s. i heard from a little federal birdy hat Daily will be in his federal cell sooner that you think. this is definitely his last term... remember, they let Ryan serve out the remainder of his term first.

12/12/2005 01:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry... DALEY for any asshole that had a problem with the spelling!

12/12/2005 01:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:02:15 The bubbly will flow when Lil" king Ritchie the Junior gets indicted. I think we should all go to federal court and wave bye-bye to him. Please let it be so.

12/12/2005 01:06:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Firstly, thank you very much for posting this thread and bringing it to everyone's attention. As a retired 31-year CPD veteran, this issue is very important to me.

Like you, I cannot understand how the police-hating, gun-hating Daley gets away with not abiding with a federal law. The federal law that was passed says absolutely nothing about liability. Deal with it, Mr. Mayor. I think a class action suit should be filed so that Daley can explain to the feds why he feels he's above the law.

I strongly agree with the poster who said that there is absolutely nothing stopping retirees from carrying right now. The federal law was passed a year and a half ago and went into effect at that time. The fact that Daley doesn't like the law and refuses to abide by it should have no effect on a retiree's ability to carry, if they elect to do so. Again, as stated by the same poster as referred to above, if found to be carrying, what could he be arrested for? Not qualifying? When the mayor is the one putting up the roadblock to a retiree attempting to obey the law, I think not.

12/12/2005 03:10:00 AM  
Anonymous almost 29 and a day said...

I havent actually read the bill but someone who has told me that the city and state are under no obligation to qualify their retirees.

The bill allows them the oppurtunity to qualify retirees IF they want to.

What they are obligated to do is to recognize those officers active and retired who have qualified in other jurisdictions.

And other jurisdictions are obligated to recognise us.

For example we can now carry in Wisconsin, without fear of arrest.

It is for this reason that Daley and Blagojevich are dragging their feet and denying qualifications.

It is insulting to those of us who kept our noses clean and made enemies are now denied the oppurtunity to defend ourselves

By the way those posters on other threads who tell me to treat my prisoners fairly and I wont have to worry can kiss my ass.

I do treat my prisoners fairly. However,not all of them accept responsiblity for their actions which is why they are society's misfits in the first place.

Unfortunately, the FOP is probably taking the correct tact at this time BECAUSE a pending lawsuit would allow further foot dragging by the city until the lawsuit is resolved.

Lastly as a further slap in the face by Daley I understand that the NYPD and probably other Departments grant their honorably retired officers the right to carry as a thank you for their service automatically.

Personally I'd prefer to do things legally BUT I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

This philosiphy has carried me through the last 28 + years and will dominate my thinking post retirement

Merry Christmas

12/12/2005 04:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

another reason to abolish residency and why a retiree would still coose to live in this city is a mystery maybe daley's right some retirees are mentally unstable if they remain "residents" of the great city of chicago

12/12/2005 04:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let me play "devil's advocate" here. If there are nearly a HALF BILLION (500,000,000) handguns in circulation in the USA, perhaps hizzoner could answer this. Assume that Daley, et al, succeed in having the Second Amendment repealed.

Who will turn in their handguns? The naive "ma and pa" merchants and grocers and other decent, law-abiding citizens? Perhaps.

How about the "predators" of American society? I think not. They'll laugh.

Ultimately, if Citizen Daley applies for concealed carry, it should be denied on grounds of "mental instability". This man is clueless.

So now Daley has decided to obstruct the inevitable--implementation of H.R. 218 among retired law enforcement officers.

The USA is not Canada or Australia. The "concealed carry" horses have fled the barn a long, long time ago--and the're not coming back.

Could there be a better place to start for nationwide "concealed carry" than among qualified active and retired law enforcement officers?

12/12/2005 05:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While Mayor DELAY plays his fiddle, I'd like to make a suggestion for all plainclothes law enforcement officers, both active and retired. Spend twelve bucks for a lanyard with a leather pouch containing your star, CPD ID, FOID, etc. to conceal around your neck.

In the unlikely event that you are confronted with a life-threatening situation, you can merely flip it out above your top.

12/12/2005 05:26:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK which cityhall moron is going to send me a letter telling me that I can't carry concealed? As I understand it HB 218 allows me to carry, the state I live in has issued me a carry concealed permit and Daley says I can't. Does this mean that the city will never say I was an employee in good standing when I retired. How do I get other employment if desired, will the city refuse to say I was an employee in good standing? I wish I was an attorney to personally sue Daley and his cohorts.

12/12/2005 07:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why would I choose to remain in this City after retirement you ask? Because it's a great city, a world class city no matter who the Mayor is. I've put a lot of money and my time into my home. I like it. I'm 1 block away from Park Ridge where if I moved too, the cost of a home would at least triple and thats not including property tax. I can hop on the xpressway and in a matter of minutes I have great restraunts, theater, a fabulous lakefront,Navy Pier etc., etc. If I did choose to relocate, it would probably be into a downtown condo.The seasons change quarterly, which means we don't have extreme climate conditions unlike some places my friends retire to where it's excessively hot or humid. Too hot or cold, don't worry, it will change soon. We have the best team in baseball, the White Sox, a NFL team that may become something one day. Whats not to like about Chicago besides the Mayor? He will be gone one day. Chicago will be here forever.

12/12/2005 07:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it's a smack in the face to our retirees. 30+ years of service for what? To be told your too old, to crazy, or too stupid all of the sudden? What does Daley and his mindless minions think? That one day an officer is fully capable of handling him or herself in a shooting, and the day after they retire they're brains are mush? C'mon!

This is so typical of Daley. Any new legislation concerning police officers, or any demands made by FOP, he drags his feet. The minute some southside wonder whines, they get handed a big fat check and a flower pot in their name.

I think this city used to be "world class" when there were more people with class living here. Unfortunately, this city is going the way of New Orleans, L.A., San Francisco, et al.

The day I wake up and find that my police superintendant barely speaks english, my fire chief is a bull-dike, and Ron Huberman is elected mayor, I'm sooooo outta here!!!!

12/12/2005 08:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Sun-Times said...

UPDATE: Check today's Sun-Times:

"City: Retired cops can't carry concealed handguns" by Frank Main & Fran Spielman

12/12/2005 08:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has the city refused or are they postponing until standards are in place?

Daley and other anti-gun people never thought H.B. 218 would be passed. Now that it is law, they're in no particular hurry to help. Maybe he is concerned about a possible liability issue, but my money says he's just unhappy that cops can carry guns.

Daley can't retire fast enough for me. Maybe the feds will retire him for us.

12/12/2005 08:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Based on some of the comments I have read posted here, I believe the City is correct in thinking retired police would be a liability. In fact, you guys are such a liability you should not be allowed to carry a weapon off duty.

Three cheers for the City!!! Hooray!!! Hooray!!! Hooray!!!

12/12/2005 08:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 8:24:11......

do us all a favor and kill yourself.

12/12/2005 08:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:24

thanks, your honor

12/12/2005 08:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey jagoff (8:24) you think you won the war? Obviously your some anti-gun liberal piece of shit. All Daley did was screw his police officers here in Chicago. The rest of the country hasn't.

Hurray for Daley? A piece of shit with bodyguards wherever he goes.

12/12/2005 08:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So whats next? A law suit? Are they going to continue issuing the retired stars to retirees? I'll bet not.

12/12/2005 08:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Daley's own father had a retired Chicago officer for a body guard for years. He (the cop)was one of the finest officers to ever serve this city. He continued to carry till the day he died. His star is on display at HQ if anyone is intersted (look for Ofc. Gilhooly).

This fine officer has a grandson who is currently on the job. He works in 007. You all might know him as the "off-duty cop who saved the railway officers life" last winter. I guess there's something to be said for good genes.

Isn't it ironic that Daley opposes the very thing that protected his father and himself as a young lad.

To this day, he still snubs the Gilhooly family. He will rot in hell.

12/12/2005 08:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well that is yet another reason to take your pension money and pay for goods & services, taxes and other, cost of living items in a pro police enviornment. If you haven't noticed this city and it's mayor are anti police. This is a rotten stinking town and I will move my sorry ass out of here in 6 years and 1 day, thank you very much.

12/12/2005 09:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr mayor GGF. Any working copper that hassles a retired copper for carrying should get his/her ass kicked. I cant wait to shit on the mayors tombstone.

12/12/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question: I retired from the army last year. Since they want to let retired cops carry guns,I should be allowed to carry an M-60 which I used well. After all most of us who were in the military were better trained with the use of weapons than the typical policeman who shoots his weapon (once a year?) So how about it. P.S. we also kept ourselves in better shape.

12/12/2005 09:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SIGMUND FREUD SAYS; PEOPLE WHO PLAY WITH GUNS HAVE SMALL DONGS! THEY NEED THEM TO MAKE THEM MORE OF A MAN.

12/12/2005 09:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 9:31:30.....

Sigmung Frued says.... YOU'RE GAY!!!

12/12/2005 09:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Instead of crying about packin heat off-duty or retired you should start exercising and gettin strong! Those homeboyz you put in jail are pumpin steel gettin strong. Your next street stop on one of these could be your last, they don't fear prison or gettin locked up. they know you can't shoot them. So they can just bust your head. WORKOUT YOU COPS! NO MORE DONUTS OR TACOS!

12/12/2005 10:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read the suntimes article today about this. Check out Sharry Mecklembeurg (sp?) 's statements.

12/12/2005 10:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Daley and Sheri Mecklenburg must be fuckin' nuts. As an active officer, I will not be getting the letter from the city to retirees (Sun-Times, p. 6). Hopefully, a retiree will print the verbatim text on this site. No doubt, Daley will have one of his suckhole underlings sign the letter.

The irony is outrageous. Federal law mandates that an out-of-state active or retired LEO can carry concealed in Chicago but we're supposed to lock up our own retirees. Daley is insane.

12/12/2005 11:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Mrs Daley has spoken again, Mr No Balls Richie, and fat ass Cline, Retired Police Ofiicers cant carry weapons. Theyve disided their more powerfull then the President of the United States.

12/12/2005 11:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Both Daleys hated the Police except once a monthe when they got their envelope one a month.

12/12/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mike Segal got ten years hes the the guy who shook down all the building contractors and gave Daley and Burke theior ends. Can Richie and Eddie be far behind.

12/12/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Fran and Frank, guess what? The retired coppers have been and will continue to carry their weapons no matter what you two mouth pieces of the mayor say or what even he says. There is not one copper on this job that would even THINK of locking up a retired copper for carrying. And when I retire not am I going to carry it, I'm going to carry it exposed! Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

12/12/2005 11:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well the only one to blame for this...Daley's refusal to comply with the federal law allowing retirees to carry....is the US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald. If his indictments and investigations didn't have Daley and his buddies paranoid, Daley would have figured out by now how to use the federal legislation, to put more money into his and his brothers pockets.

12/12/2005 11:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the knuckleheaded bird brain who so worried about cops donuts/tacos....those idiots who pump iron all day long were putin prison by COPS and when they do get out and start busting butts again its a 1000 to 1 chance that they will attack those who are not the police...some form of lower form of life, like yourself.....then you'll be looking for those donut eating coppers to help remove pump boys foot out of your butt

12/12/2005 11:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 926C(c) specifically states:

that a "qualified retired law enforcement officer" means...an individual who retired in good standing from service with (the Chicago Police Department), other than for reasons of mental instability;

In his widely known anti-gun stance, it appears that Mayor Daley is unsuccessfully looking for a legal loophole "in good standing" and/or "mental instability". There is none.

Any retired officer who has been given his retirement star and ID card has obviously retired "in good standing".

Under penalty of perjury, the Illinois FOID card rules out "mental instability".

In addition, in opposition to H.R. 218, in his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, a vice-president of the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) UNSUCCESSFULLY noted that "the (H.R. 218) legislation fails to take into account those officers who have retired under threat of disciplinary action or dismissal for emotional problems that did not rise to the level of "mental instability".

A check of noun synonyms in Roget's International Thesaurus (6th Edition) includes the term "mental instability" under 926: INSANITY.

12/12/2005 12:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Mr Mayor....if the city is so fuckin great why do you need body gaurds. Why is there plain clothes Officers from your detail positioned in back and in front of your shitty little condo there on Indiana. Your a piece a shit.

12/12/2005 01:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wah..wah... go cry in your beer about retired guys carrying... you can still sit around in your underware watching old cop shows with your gun on...hoo hoo maybe wear your old uniform too!!

12/12/2005 01:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just like they say on the westside "officer better you catch me with it then them young boys catch me without it". Carry now and always will. As for the military guy with his M-60, who the fuck are you going to run into that you sent away and has no use for you. You retired from the service because you were too fuckin dumb to get a real job.

12/12/2005 01:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's the story on this Sheri Mecklenburg?

12/12/2005 01:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was more fun in the army than here state side Hell, my squad could probably kicked the shit out of a whole district of cops. Most of you weenies have probably never been fired upon and would probably piss your pants.

12/12/2005 01:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now now, let's not start shit towards the military retirees, even though one lunkhead started it first.

H.B. 218 was drafted with the intention of not only protecting police officers as they cross state lines, but because off duty officers will take action (except dogasses in Chicago) when they see something going on. There are countless documented cases of off-duty coppers in other states taking action that saved lives. Any Chicago copper (except dogasses natch) who were driving by and saw a fellow officer getting his ass kicked would immediately jump into the fray and help out. That was one of the reasons for the law.

King Daley is a cop hater, what do you expect? What does it take to draft a S.O. or G.O. that defines "good standing?" There is already an unofficial policy in place, just ask personnel for a retirement star when you go. If you're in "good standing" as they define it, you get one. What is needed is the letter from the city/department stating you were in good standing.

So King Daley fucks us again, surprised?

12/12/2005 01:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey military ass-clown how many people did you lock up while peeling potatos as a chef in the air force? Work out guy....I'd much rather shoot'em than fight'em especially when I'm 60. Some cops have responsibilities such as family second jobs and life, which preclude us from working out all day, unlike the shitheads in the joint.

12/12/2005 02:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Ex-Military said...

Hey Retired army guy, what the fuck are you going to do now. Get a job with comcast? I hope you planned for your future and I don't have to give you a play everytime you fuck up or back up traffic with your foam cup. One thing you don't seem to realize is that there are many servicemen on our department. See how quick one of us will slap your disrespectful bitch ass down AND put a case on you. Show respect to the one's who have the power "stateside" if you want respect. Typical undisciplined army/national guard/boy scouts trash. BITCH.

12/12/2005 03:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey military guy, your squad could kick a whole district's ass, with your M-60's against our peashooters? You are a punk, talkin shit. And if you don't like it state-side go back, pussy!

12/12/2005 03:53:00 PM  
Anonymous adios, mofo said...

Tick Tock...

Ten hours and counting, Tookie

Tick Tock...

12/12/2005 03:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's no longer an "HR" it's federal law! 18 USC 926C

12/12/2005 04:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I ever stop a retired copper from anywhere, I hope he has his gun on him. I would expect nothing less and would give him the respecthe/she deserves for putting up with this crap for 30 years. Better to be armed and never need to use the weapon than to be caught unarmed.

12/12/2005 04:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

daley thinks he is GOD look what he did to Meigs field and got away with it!!

He doesn't give a shit about what the federal laws are he is doing it his way---what a useless piece of shit

12/12/2005 06:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let Daley blab all he wants! Concealed carry licenses are available in HOW many states now? It is on its way here too. Where's the liability question there? It will be easier for some goof to get a concealed carry license than it will for a 20 plus retired cop to carry his weapon. This city is a MESS!

12/12/2005 07:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1631 check do you have your gun on ?

12/12/2005 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger anonymous 101 said...

The way I understand it, a retired cpd copper that lives in the suburbs can get a permit, but a retired city copper that still lives in the city cannot? We should let the city hang itself on this one. The reason - residency. If the same retired copper can get a permit in the suburbs, but not the city, then what is the city's reasoning for present day coppers having to live in the city? By the city's reasoning the city would be safer if all gun toting coppers lived outside the city.

12/12/2005 09:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mrs Richie Little Daley Didnt like the noise at Meigs Field. I can here him now YES HONEY ANY THING YOU WANT, but you have to spank me when Im done.

12/12/2005 09:15:00 PM  
Anonymous The "g" said...

When the Mayor goes to Federal Prison he will still be perotected by armed guards.

12/12/2005 10:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have talked to coppers traveling all over this country long before HR218. If they asked me if I was carrying, I usually replied, ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies.

Even in the smallest town or backwoods they would say, if you are not you should be.

Any retiree out there who is carrying, please don't do nothing stupid to give Richie any "ammo".

12/12/2005 11:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As you should know retired cops from Chicago are the scum of the state. THey plant dope on everyone in 025, 015 and 011! With all the bad action they did on the job its no wonder they need a gun to protect themselves when they retire, in the old days the citizens would probably linch them!

12/13/2005 08:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What kind of moron gets up at eight in the morning to write thi kind of carp?

12/13/2005 10:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know I've planted my share of dope and guns on honest upright citizens throughout my career. I go to the CopShop at that shhhhhh, "super secret" location. Every real cop knows where it's at.

There for a nominal fee (donuts of course) you can get all kinds of "drop goodies" to help you violate the civil rights of these honest citizens. Drop dope, drop guns, and even on special order in an emergency, drop evidence for homicide investigations.

Why bother doing real police work when you can go to the CopShop and put a case on a brother? It works for me!

Now, even though that previous dribble was obviously tongue in cheek, some stupid dickwad will read it and say it's the gospel. Get a life Mr. 08:01.

12/13/2005 03:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exersise you fat asses!You donut eating bustouts need some good P.T. and maybe some target practice!

12/17/2005 07:40:00 PM  

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