Today's Sun Times
This is post #701. Not a bad 8 months, if we do say so ourselves.
Anyway, it was requested that we address the front page of today's Sun times that shows a still shot of a homemade video of police arresting a minister in mid-sermon. Aside from the obviously provocative picture of police escorting the minister from the church, we fail to see what merits this being on the front page of any newspaper.
There are no allegations of misconduct on the part of the police. There is no video of anyone resisting or getting hit. The police were executing a duly signed complaint from another citizen. What possible reason could there be for showing a police officer executing his duty calmly, properly, professionally and from all the information available, completely legally?
Maybe the Sun Times doesn't like the police? Surely it can't be that simple?
Anyway, it was requested that we address the front page of today's Sun times that shows a still shot of a homemade video of police arresting a minister in mid-sermon. Aside from the obviously provocative picture of police escorting the minister from the church, we fail to see what merits this being on the front page of any newspaper.
There are no allegations of misconduct on the part of the police. There is no video of anyone resisting or getting hit. The police were executing a duly signed complaint from another citizen. What possible reason could there be for showing a police officer executing his duty calmly, properly, professionally and from all the information available, completely legally?
Maybe the Sun Times doesn't like the police? Surely it can't be that simple?
posted by SCC at 7:56 PM
52 Comments:
AH HA IM FIRST!!! Now all the Rev.'s will want Police Cameras on all P.O.'s uniforms because they racial profiled the Rev. you dig!!!
Hey #1 poster, we want to use you for target practice ;-)
Anyhow...
the beef is the fact that he was arrested while giving a sermon, which from what the news stated, he wasn't supposed to being doing anyway.
The CPD handled it quite nicely...
HE WAS ARRESTED FOR CRIMINAL TRESPASS ON A COMPLAINT BY CHURCH MEMBERS
SCC,
Sorry for being off topic and repeating this comment from another string, but I believe this idea for a post bears repeating:
http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=3863
This is a Chicago Defender article concerning the archaic law that allows alderman to carry a concealed firearm and how past efforts to repeal it have failed.
Ironic that the mayor has no problem with untrained alderman carrying firearms, but not trained and experienced retired officers.
Two sets of laws in Chicago: one for the connected and more restrictive laws for the unwashed masses (the other 99.99% of us).
I'm just glad the coppers that locked him up were black. But somehow the race card will be played!!!!!!!!!
Please dont give any merit to that racist peice of toilet paper known as the defender by talking about it on this site. I am worried that you even know what is in there in the first place
A Feamale is in custody for smuggling a 38 into ccj. She not a C.O. Still unlcear if any CCj employees were involved or just sloppy.
Sorry off topic
"Police apparently took the board's word that McCants was fired," said the Rev. William H. Ameiss....
Dear Rev. Ameiss,
Yes, that's what the police do on occassion- arrest people on signed complaints. As much as we would like to be everywhere at every time, quite like being an omnipotent being, alas, we cannot. But don't frett, chief of staff Huberman is working on that.
From time to time, we have to "take the word" of citizens. So, the next time that someone steals something from the church or hits you, don't worry, we won't arrest them on your word. Afterall, what's fair is fair. If we shouldn't take the word of the Board of Fake Ministers, we certainly shouldn't take your word.
Sincerely,
A PO Waiting to 19-P your call
would just love to see some of you tough talking guys arrest one of those butt busting priests/bishops/cardinals during MASS for a bullshit misdemenor such as criminal trespass
I was not there, just know what I hear. However, I would Have NEVER arrested a Minister/Priest/Reverend/etc during service. I do not know when the original case was filed but if it was a couple of days old and they did not go get a warrant I would have told them to go POUND SALT. And if they made it out that day I would have advised the Warrant Procedure. And if for some strange reason a arrest was needed then I would have waited for him to finish. It sounds like there is a little power struggle going on in that church and they are trying to use to POLICE to solve it. Yes, I was not there but it seems a little common sense could have gone a long way. Guys, you are preliminary investigators, figure stuff out before you take action.
08:48:18 PM -
I'm not sure who are the "tough talking" guys you refer to. No one has said they could have done it any better.
Just wanted to tell those coppers who did handle that job: NICE JOB. So what if it made the front page? You handled yourselves well. I like the order given to the "pastor" (yes, intentional use of quotes there).
Did SWAT take him down?
Well a supervisor was on the scene. In today's climate I'm sure he ran it up the flagpole. The P.O.'s were probably just following the program.
To 10:27:30
Obviously YOU were not there... because the job was handled by a PROFESSIONAL.
You know what you hear, huh? That's called "rumors". Those are those little things that are usually not even worth the paper that they are not printed on.
And, as far as telling the officer to "figure stuff out before you take action", if you took the time to read the (highly slanted) article in the Slum-Times, even they mention that the officer initially approached, then backed off and was talking on a cell phone, and then made the arrest. Who do you think he was calling...his psychic?
Try this approach next time...
Think...then type
I think they could have waited until the service was over unless there was some underlying danger or some not so obvious urgency to the situation. Normally, these types of cases would be referred to the summons officer at the branch court. A little common sense is all that would be needed unless....and I really do hope that there was some other reason why they had to interrupt a religous service to enforce the "letter of the law" instead of just waiting a while to enforce the "true spirit of the law." I am white and catholic and there are priests out there who have done multiple major league felonies but I have never heard of a catholic mass being interrupted to arrest or even talk to a priest. There are enough people out there who hate the police. We don't need to turn church going folks against us whatever their religion, race or neighborhood, even if some of them already hate us too.
I know....I'm a dumb fuck liberal and should go fuck myself, 1611 and 1631 suck and you do everything much better than me.
To 2/06/2006 10:40:17 PM
I heard more then the sun times. A true Professional would have NOT arrested a minister while he was preaching, NO matter his religious beliefs. I did think before I typed because there is no reason for the actions that were taken. The man is not a flight risk. Get a warrant. If an arrest was necessary wait until he is done. I know that Pisses you off because WE are the POLICE and what we says goes, regardless of GOD or MAN but sometime a little tact, brainpower and Common sense is needed. I hope things work out for the Officer involved but, and go ahead and bash me, it was a STUPID move.
Oh, and by the way, I do not need someone on a cell phone to make a decision or direct me. Your badge says CHICAGO POLICE. I learned many years ago how to handle my jobs without calling a supervisor.
Like you would have waited for him to finish and next your going to tell me Huberman is straight. Nice try.
This situation had been going on for months and legal affairs had already been consulted on a course of action. The Pastor had been warned on numerous occasions, but this time he and his supporters came prepared with cameras to create a media circus. He knew exactly what he was doing.
The officer acted on orders of his Watch Commander. The crime that the pastor was charged with was Criminal Trespass. Do you believe that when we observe someone in the commision of an alleged crime that we should allow them to continue in that crime while we watch?
2/06/2006 11:08:35 PM
WHAT DOES YOUR LAST COMMENT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING EXCEPT SHOW YOU CONTEMPT FOR SOMEONE YOUR PROBALLY DO NOT KNOW.
I'm sorry he rejected you . Grow Up.
anyone who says those officers should have waited is not the police. they had a job to do and they did it. if you didnt look closely there were probably 5 church goers in that church at the time of the arrrest. if you were going to lock joe schmoe off the street would you wait til he finished doing what he was doing or would you make the arrest ? you were not there , you dont know the particulars, dont monday morning quarterback another copper making an arrest that you know nothing about, shut the hell up and type something useful.
have a nice night
2/06/2006 11:30:55 PM
If you cannot figure out the difference between "Joe schmoe" and a reverend preaching then you have to go back to the academy for training. Obviously common sense is not something you possess.
And I can "Monday Morning" all I want because I have been there, probably when I was working with your Father or Uncle, when they brought pictures of you to work in your 1st grade Halloween Police costume, just like you wear now to impress the bar maids on Rush street. It was a Bad call, PERIOD.
Actually the news coverage on tv, made the police look like civilized humans for once. The Rev knew he wasn't suppose to be there. Knew he was wrong. Stood in front of his "flock" teaching them right from wrong. I too am a Catholic, and if one of my Priest are breaking the law to such an extent and the cops have an opportunity to capture him, so be it! Get on the alter and take him down. The only disgrace to the House of God, was brought upon by the actions of this Rev. So there.
annnnnd one more thing
If the police were to wait til the service was over. What was going to happen in the parking lot of the church?. Or when it got outside, and the congregation would get loud, hollaring, "fallin out" and wailing??? Oh here come the neighbors, here comes the protest. At least in the church it was a controlled enviorment for officer safety reasons.
Unless you were there....then shut the fuck up! The coppers on the scene had all the facts and made the call. Quit being a bunch of Monday morning cocksuckers and try sticking up for your fellow officers.
Now if you were there, and you disagreed, then disregard my telling ou to shut the fuck up.....otherwise, shut the fuck up, none of you second guessers were there!
I'm not one to second guess police action since I was not there. However, I am experienced as anyone in making arrests.
I have never had a situation involving arresting a subject in or just outside a church.
Notwithstanding, I have made scores of arrests where the wanted subject was in a courtroom free on bond. In ALL cases, we'd wait until he exited the courtroom before placing him under arrest.
Perhaps the officers in this incident had some unknown yet compelling reason to effect the arrest before the subject left the church.
It's not my call.
Arresting somebody INSIDE a house of worship for a misdemeanor is plain stupidity. Wait until he leaves.
If a "pastor" is in your living room giving a "sermon" to five of his followers, should the responding P.O's wait until he's done and left your house? He wasn't where he had a legal right to be. What is your issue with the response by the P.O's? Since he had as much right to be in that church as he would in your living room would you consider it good police service to have to listen to my 15 second explaination on warrant procedures?
Poor analogy. Your home is private property while a church is open to the public.
It appears that the supervisor on the cell phone prior to the misdemeanor arrest exercised poor judgment in directing the subordinates.
Just my opinion.
What about the sanctuary rule, no person may be taken into custody in a house of worship unless the public is in immenient danger.
The dicks advised to obtain summons through branch court or civil order through sheriffs dept to vacate the premise, incidently were the minister still lives. This was a Captain White and No Balls Reynolds production.. HEY HEY the city owes the minister a big pay day.
This Cynthia White has to be a real piece of work.
The regrettable bottom line is the officers, probably at the direction of affirmative action supervisors, took police action and made the front page of a major newspaper. Were they right to do their job? Of course they were. But the perception is that they were wrong. It probably would not have happened if the officers were led by a supervisor promoted from the list.
"What about the sanctuary rule, no person may be taken into custody in a house of worship unless the public is in immenient danger."
Where in the ILCS is that?
The only part that i know of is..
"(725 ILCS 5/107‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 107‑5)
Sec. 107‑5. Method of arrest.
(b) An arrest may be made on any day and at any time of the day or night.
(c) An arrest may be made anywhere within the jurisdiction of this State."
Also is a beat car suppose to sit on the church for three hours till the service is over? what if the guy keeps talking up there. I'm not familar with the relgious practices of all these churchs out there. But I'll tell you that i'm not going to sit down and wait till his done. When I make an arrest its under my terms, if you let the offender have control of the situation you have no clue where it will end up.
I am the one who balked at the Sun Times putting up the story of the priest accused of molesting the kids last week on page one. As I stated, the case overall was pretty weak. We all agree that any one who touches a kid should be beaten and burn in hell forever. But if you look at it everything in that particular case there was absolutely no OUTSIDE evidence whatsoever. (aka West/Southside bullshit) However, the Sun Times lately has taken these overall “weak” shit cases and putting them on the front page just to sell papers.
How many coppers out there have run across a “typical” Southside/Westside capers as the one that appeared on the front page of Monday’s Times. FUCK the Sun Times.. start writing there Newspaper trucks and any vehicles around their buildings tickets for ANYTHING.
These are nothing more than socialist / communist anti-American MOTHERFUCKERS selling garbage to make a buck. FUCK ‘EM IN THE ASS ! ! ! !
Oh and to the people who say to wait...
" (725 ILCS 5/107‑16)
Sec. 107‑16. Apprehension of offender. It is the duty of every sheriff, coroner, and every marshal, policeman, or other officer of an incorporated city, town, or village, having the power of a sheriff, when a criminal offense or breach of the peace is committed or attempted in his or her presence, forthwith to apprehend the offender and bring him or her before a judge..."
You guys can do all the shit you want on your own, but when it comes time to stand before the judge the only thing hes going to be looking at is the book. These coppers were stuck between a rock and a hard place. The guy was warned and he still proceeded. Seems like you will piss off half of the people no matter what you do.
Then why are arrangements made to have people turn themselves in? I'm not talking about the known but flown. Do you enforce every law to the letter without ever using discretion? Back when drunk driving was the hot topic some guy refused to answer that question. He dick danced around it every time. Don't dick dance officer, answer the question.
"when it comes time to stand before the judge the only thing hes going to be looking at is the book"
That's a horseshit statement. Do you think the P.O.'s in this case will ever stand before a judge? They might have to sit at a deposition hearing at the Corp Councils office because the minister is going to sue. Judges look at the circumstances. No judge would ever question your actions because you allowed a minister to finish a service before you arrested him for a meaningless misdemeanor that should have been, in the worst case scenario, handled in civil court as a contract dispute. Even if the State proceeds on this case and the minister fights it, the officers will never testify. There probable cause for arrest can't be attacked. I doubt the minister made a statement to them that was evidentiary in nature. I'm pretty sure no evidence was recovered by them that could be excluded. ITS FUCKING MISDEMEANOR COURT! What fucking la-la land are you the police in? Check back when you locate the sign-in room at 26th Street.
The coppers should of helped with the collection baskets and ushered people out then they should of lit candles then made the cell call then maybe an areest could of been made. Once again we are political pawns.
Anonymous said...
What about the sanctuary rule, no person may be taken into custody in a house of worship unless the public is in immenient danger.
This isn't 16th century Europe, this is the US. There is no 'sanctuary rule'.
You second guessers are all a bunch of assholes. You have a complainant, you have a violation thta is continuing, do your job. Church, tavern, private home, baseball park, it doesn't matter.
Next time I need a backup, all you second guessers stay the fuck away. I'd rather go it alone than have the likes of you 'helping' me.
I had a similar experience also in the 005th District in 1990 or 91. In my case, the pastor was removed, but he showed up the next Sunday and started preaching in the aisles while the new minister was at the altar.
I asked him about five times to leave, as he was disrupting the service, but he refused. So, I locked him up the signed complaints of a member of the church committee.
There were no hassles, I didn't call for a supervisor, and I don't even know what happened to the case. The only thing that angered me was my back-up did not show. After I made the arrest she showed in 005 and wanted to be in box #2. I refused of course.
Things were different then, a little less media stuff. The point is, these officers couldn't wait for the service to end and couldn't advise a warrant as the "named offender" was on the scene.
The problem today is that many officers are afraid to take action because (boo hoo) they might get a CR#. Grow up! You're the police, act like it!
Sneedlings . . .
Congrats to Capt. James Knightly on 40 years of service to the Chicago Police Department. Does that make him the only CPD supervisor with 40 years as an officer?
To answer/question various posts.
1. I would interupt Mass to arrest a priest as long as it was Fr. Phlaeger.
2. Why should an officer wait for an offender to finish violating the law. Grow a pair.
3. Since when is a church not private property?
I am not second guessing the P.O.'s that handled the job, they were put in a though spot.My question is would the W/C or ranking member whomever the P.O.'s called would give the same marching orders if this would of occurred in a MOSQUE cosidering the current situaion ie;Demark?
Captain White was off for the weekend and had nothing to do with this. Can't you please try to stick with facts once in a while?
I don't think anybody is saying that they were not entitled to do what they did just as any officer is entitled to dui your drunk ass going home at night but they should use a little bit of discretion just as you always plead from 016 when they deal with your idiot relatives.
In reviewing the Modified Consent Decree, which is the Order of Supervision that the City of Chicago Police Dpeartment has been under since 2001, because of the way the CPD has dealt with public gatherings in the past, you will find that it specifically orders the CPD to utilize "minimization procedures proportional to the anticipated gravity of the crime and the potential threat of public safety" when dealing with public gatherings including religous assemblies. In other words, the CPD is already under the supervision of the 7th Circuit Federal Court of Appeals because of the way it's officers deal with public gatherings. Is it at all possible that this whole scenario was a set-up to see if the CPD would dive in head first and make the arrest simply because they did not stand back and study the big picture before acting in an "I'm the police and I enforce the law" kind of way?
Anonymous said...
Captain White was off for the weekend and had nothing to do with this. Can't you please try to stick with facts once in a while?
Sure and what are the real facts about Capt. White, Trick Ass Bitch
I think that 2001 thing is more for "anticipatory" events, like monitoring public gatherings etc.
Once someone calls the police and a determination is made that a crime has been committed, the 7th Circuit will not second-guess whether the police have acted properly. Law enforcement is law enforcement.
The question for public gatherings and such is whether the police have any business monitoring, preventing, or otherwise interfering with an otherwise lawful public gathering.
This is Chicago. We've had problems as recently as 1996 with how we've treated public gatherings. Generally, they should be tolerated and even encouraged. Any police interference should be something along the lines of what you quoted... based on a reasonable determination of the likelihood that laws will be broken and public order will be breached.
Which is to say, a few C/D officers in the crowd as monitors shouldn't raise too many eyebrows, but lines of riot-police surrounding a crowd (a la Ramsey's 2002 incident in DC) and refusing to allow them to leave a park, is something for which bosses (e.g., Ramsey in DC) should be fired and themselves jailed. Peaceful public gatherings and protests are among the most fundamental of our rights.
I think locking up the Minister was the NO BALLS MOVE! If this had been going on for awhile, no warrant had been obtained and supposedly legal affairs had already been notified then tough shit on the church and their board. I would have told them to get a warrant and left. Yeah, it takes a lot of BALLS to lock up someone on signed complaints.
While McCants may not have won the ghetto lottery, I hear the sound of CHA-CHING!
No, locking him up was the BALLS thing to do. Fuck all these Reverends, Priest, Imams , Rabbis or whatever with their Mini-fiefdoms. They guy was fired, but showed up to work, he was asked to leave but didn't. Lock his ass up like the piss bum at the gas station. The inmates do not run the asylum you Puss-boy! BTW the 7th. Court thing has nothing to do with this type situation. Are you too afraid to lock someone up in a crowd situation? If so get another job 'cause you have no spine.
Any one can become a reverend by calling the phone number off the book of matches and sending in $25.oo. If the police waited for all the amens and the singing and shaking they would still be there. CAN I HAVE AN AMEN!
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