Zorn on Burge
We dislike the media in general. They are nosy, self important, ignorant people who think they know everything and the truth can only be told through them and their apparatus. They are also biased beyond belief against anyone who doesn't subscribe to their narrow world view of political correctness and other such nonsense.
We dislike Eric Zorn for all these traits and more. But he wrote about the Burge Report on Tuesday and points out that this could be a major headache for the current City Administration, and anything that brings the mayor and his people pain is a good thing in our eyes. Here's the link - read it if you like.
We dislike Eric Zorn for all these traits and more. But he wrote about the Burge Report on Tuesday and points out that this could be a major headache for the current City Administration, and anything that brings the mayor and his people pain is a good thing in our eyes. Here's the link - read it if you like.
posted by SCC at 12:03 AM
91 Comments:
But I don't want to be first!
Go Seiser
what good is it to release this report to the public?
just because there are those who worked with Burge, doesn't mean they did the same thing he did.
i went to st rita high school with eric zorn, and let me tell you brother he was the biggest GEEK, DORK, LOSER in the school, so now in order to make up for poor self esteem he writes his column and uses it to tear down not build up. i guess he wants everybody else to feel as bad as he does. so when you read his "shit" consider the source and i might add that i imagine that the suntimes must have been pretty desperate to have hired him in the first place.
oh yeah and i forgot, you know how during puberty we all kinda go through growing pains and teen angst and a gawky, awkward, clumsy stage but as we grow older we kinda grow out of it, by looking at his picture it apparently didnt work for him cause he looks worse now then he did in high school if thats possible... yech.
what good is it to release this report to the public?
Why not? Burge has been given a pass from all of his sins and transgressions for years, living large in Florida off his honorably
attained pension. But, I guess some people still believe because that they act under the color of law, that they are exempt from any and all wrong doings. No one has implied that everyone that worked for or under BUGE was guilty or accused of anything. The Police are always the first to say "If you don't have anything to hide from, why run? But, I guess that applys to everyone but the Police. Unfortunately it will be the taxpayers getting socked in the eye, if there are any legal ramifications. Then it was just a bunch of Black guys that got screwed over, of course we all know guilty or not, they are just fodder for new and unproven interrogation techniques. Especially interesting is the part about "DA" Mayor, then State's Attorney and other upper eschelon legal types, that might have played a role in possible neglect, collusion or cover up. Yea, what good is it to release this to the public, I thought the same thing about all of the altar boys that got butt busted by their local priests 20 to 30 years ago. Oh hell most of those altar boys are White, they got rights.
Any government employee who takes the 5th for basically anything related to their job should lose their job, and their pension if retired. Its an absolute disgrace if "law enforcement" coppers and attorneys took the 5th on this. If this is true, then Zorn is right and there will be hell to pay.
the report shouldn't be released or released in an edited fashion in that it contains grand jury testimony which is not in the public domain. this would set a bad legal precedent I don't care about the report but I think it is a waste the statue of limitations is up by about 20 years so it is a waste of time. very few still on the job from back then. Commander of 022 could get some egg on his face
God bless John Burge.
We really need more people like John Burge and less people like the basher wannabe cops who post here. At least he had guts, courage, integrity, and got the job done. Flynt Taylor et al are nothing more than shyster lawyers looking for a payday. More men like Burge and there would be no crime in this town.
Fuck Zorn & you righteous assholes to condemn Burge for getting the job done~who cares about the scum that he supposedly tortured...what about the poor victims that got raped & the policemen that were brutally murdered? Burge is a hero.
Fuck you guys that are defending Burge. You attack criminals? Fuck you, the only reason anyone takes the 5th is because they don't want to admit to criminal conduct. In other words, THEY ARE CRIMINALS.
Pick a side jagoffs. You are on the side of the law or on the other side of the law. You might wear a uniform, but if you defend criminals (i.e., those who refuse to testify because they will incriminate themselves in criminal conduct), than you are basically gang members. Or criminals yourselves. Fuck you.
Pick a side, but if you are on the side of anyone taking the 5th, you aren't on my side. Or the side you swore to be on. So fucking quit fucking whores.
To: 1134 hrs Poster.
I disagree with you that officers who "take the 5th" are a disgrace.
Here's why. Basically, If O.J. Simpson or other individual's can take the 5th in a criminal case, or Rev. Jackson can take the 5th in civil depositions, why can't a law enforcement officer be afforded the same due process rights?
Why always the double standard?
It's a legal option, and if advised by my counsel in a similar circumstance, I would gladly "take the 5th!"
Why should they lose hard earned pensions because some "tool" like you thinks so?
Get A LIFE..You liberal loser!
TO: 9:10
You too are a "tool" Sir!
I would allow you to explain how your parents had such a piece of shit for a child.
But you would "take the 5th" before answering the above.
So I'll answer it for you. You Sir are a result of anal sex!
Ha-Ha!
John Burge is a good man. He cares about the police. God Bless him and his family. I hope he lives to be 100 yrs. old to get the most he can out of the pension fund.
Yeah, he's a good guy and a bunch of police bosses and prosecutors took the 5th. I'd love to know which asshole is here saying that its okay, but sir, law enforcement clearly isn't in your heart.
Oh, why should they lose a pension when exercising their constitutional right?
You fucking idiots are an absolute disgrace, and its no wonder the rest of the nation laughs at Chicago, its politicians and the CPD.
Coppers enforce the law. If they did something leading them to take the 5th, than they were doing something that wouldn't be law enforcement. In fact, it would be lawbreaking.
You know, the kind of stuff you fucking pieces of shit swore to fight. If you guys were born in Englewood instead of Mt. Greenwood, you'd be gangbangers. Simple as that.
Its not the law or civilization that you joined. Its a big fucking gang, and it makes you feel like you finally have a family.
Fuck you. I ain't your brother, nor am I the brother to criminals or those who defend criminals. And the only people who take the 5th are criminals. So fuuuuuck you. Can't wait to see the names released on this one.
Then the next time you have a "drop" case on a one bagger, make sure you tell the judge what really happended and not what is on your report because we are enforcing the law. WAKE UP. Justice is blind and is usually served by what ever means. Police work is all a grey area, not all black and white. Get some time and figure out it's just a job and the only thing that matters is going home safe and taking care of your familyl. And to feel good about what you are doing.
I TAKE BURGE'S SIDE, ASSHOLE !!!!
Yeah, and remember that next time you drive drunk or beat your wife or shoplift or rob a bank too. Justice is blind and who are the police to expect anyone, including the police, to obey the law? Silly you.
Come on pal, join the party. Its much more fun!
After reading some of the preliminary OPS reports on Burge & Company, I see why Daley turned a deaf ear to these accusations, It appears that most of these guys were his Bridgeport neighbors. This report is the original OPS investigation, almost 200 pages and it has the names of the accused and types of interrogation methods used. I am not sure of Federal Statues of Civil rights violations, if there is a time limit or not? What a Black eye for the city. Most of these injustices occurred years ago, but the cover up continued to this date. Appears to be a long and interesting read anyone interested can try: http://gangresearch.net/
gangresearch/chicago/goldston.pdf
There's nothing wrong with taking the 5th amendment. Before you accuse police officers of being "dirty" because they refuse to incriminate themselves, you should take a look at the Constitution of the Unites States of America (that's what it is called). Specifically, look at the Bill of Rights (that's the first ten amendments). There is a reason why the 5th amendment is in there. To fully explain this would take several hours but in your case, it would be pointless because your juvenile mind would not be able to comprehend it anyway. Now stop posting on this site Eric!
Yeah, its in the Constitution. To prevent someone from incriminating themselves. To avoid cooperating with law enforcement.
You got that? To avoid cooperating with law enforcement.
Zorn is, I'm sure, comfortable with people taking the 5th.
I hope every one of you motherfuckers gets fired. You cry "constitution" while I'm citing you the very oath you took. The two are not in conflict. You can and should be fired for taking the 5th. You can and should lose your pension for taking the 5th.
How in the world does "not cooperating with law enforcement" fit into the role of a police officer?
I know its as hard pounding this into your thick skulls as j.o.b. would be into the mules of Englewood, but just try to consider the above question.
And oh what irony it is to see someone waving the Constitution around in THIS one. Its so dumb that I'm half inclined to ask if you know where it says you can do that!
God Bless John Burge.
OK, OK "IF" THE 5th Amendment is restricted to CRIMINALS ONLY, then someone ask Flynt [never met a lawsuit I didn't like] TAYLOR to point out all HIS people that HE advised to take the 5th!
Oh yeah, it doesn't apply to 'THOSE PEOPLE' just John Burge!
Yeah FUCK YOU!
LONG LIVE JOHN BURGE
11:07PM
Ok I assume you are on the job. If you are then I respect your right to feel that way. But remember as police officers we have already given up many rights that the normal citizen doesn't give up. Now it is called the 5th Amendment and like it or not it is every Americans right to be protected by it. You're entitled to your opinion but the Constitution is there for all. As far as PO's being fired for invoking their 5th Amendment right then I suggest that tomorrow morning you call Phil at 35th street because remember he has invoked his right to use the 5th Amendment so let's fire him first.
It is restricted to criminals. You know, the whole "self-incrimination" thing. You realize you aren't allowed to invoke it without penalty if you have been granted immunity already, right?
I'm all in favor of it. You clowns just don't see how being a criminal could be a conflict with being a copper. Only in Chicago.
But its really not about this though, right? You guys are the ones saying God bless Corey Flagg in the post up top too, right? I mean, whats the harm with a little lawbreakin in the family?
Answer the question about the conflict, or shut the fuck up. It was there for you to answer, and I don't see anybody doing no reconciling. Come on boys. Coppers or criminals?
I'm sure the public would love to know how much sympathy for the devil exists on this job.
I hope they name everbody. Everybody. It can't come soon enough, and it only hastens the end of Daley and the rest of his clowns (read: you) in the city.
11:32
Ok I take it back you can't be this dense and be on the job. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are not restricted to the protection of criminals.Go tell that to all the brave men and women who have died defending that constitution and the Bill of Rights.You must be one of those people who think only some Amendments apply because you don't like all of them. Sorry it don't work that way. Any citizen can invoke the 5th even a lowly police officer. Now you don't have to like that but it does come under the rights of the American people. If you are on the job then at least you should realize the public doesn't need to know anything about what we as police think. So your opinion is criminals use the 5th Amendment fine you are entitled to that opinion. But don't come on here assuming your fellow officers, that is if you are one of us,condone criminal activity. Now if you really truly believe that some very crooked politician like Daley will ever get brought down and indicted then my man you are the most naive copper on the job. Now I don't know you but remember if you ever are the one calling a 10-1 it won't be all these self righteous citizens or media types coming to help you. It will be your fellow coppers who you for some reason you think are clowns. Lighten up cause with your attitude you'll never make 25 or 30 years on this job.
There are times when an officer should plead the fifth. You assume your a criminal if you desire or would plead the fifth as a cop is dead wrong. Just so you know it has happened, very rare but needed at times. Our rights are watered down but none the less we are entitled to our rights as well. Burge was a good cop. The city nor the liberal citizen's want good cop's. Gee do ya suppose crime would be reduced if we had a better system across the board.
The liberal public and true criminal's with slime attorney's out for the cash got what they demanded Public relation's CAPS Police. Now you live with it.
11:32
Conflict? Coppers or criminals? Wake up. It's not a conflict. It's not coppers or criminals. It's the basic right granted to all Americans. An American, that's any American even a copper, standing behind their Amendment rights is surely not a conflict and surely does not mean one is a criminal. Get over yourself pal because your self righteous goody two shoes bullshit ain't gonna impress anybody but yourself. Don't like us clowns? Then quit the job and go be righteous somewheres else. Bye Bye
I hate to say it but the so-called "liberal" is right on this one you. Sure you can plead the 5th as your right as a citizen, but you cannot incriminate yourself as a representative of the law and keep that position. Think harder. Oh your daddy the retired dinosaur told you can beat the shitheads, etc. oh yeah of course it's okay then- Daddy said so! Wake up.
God bless John Burge
11:52, some of the dumbest people in Chicago are on the job, and you are clearly one of them.
Of course a copper can plead the fifth. But it doesn't mean he can keep his job.
Two separate things. Yes Dorothy, failure to cooperate with law enforcement is not compatible with, er, being in law enforcement.
It doesn't mean you go to jail on your own sword, but you sure as hell don't have a constitutional protection to your own job based on the 5th.
And yes, the right protects everyone. It just doesn't protect everyone from everything. It protects you from being compelled to incriminate yourself in criminal matters. That is all. It doesn't guarantee lifetime employment.
So why is your answer to this "b-b-but it applies to everyone"? Sure it does. But it doesn't give anyone a right to their job, and particularly not public servants, and particularly not law enforcement.
I hope there isn't more than one person here dumb enough to dispute any of this.
All this talk about your rights is reminding me of the west side mamas on TV crying about theirs.
Explain the difference again between you guys and the savages? Just one more time please.
No wonder some of you dumb fucks never pass a test. Ok for the last time one jagoff says any copper who pleads the 5th is a criminal. Then it is said coppers can't plead the 5th. On and On and On. Now read it all again you dumb fucking jagoffs. All the point is yes as an American citizen if have not been granted immunity to testify you can plead the 5th. Ok so go tell Phil Cline who admitted that he took the 5th that he is now fired and no longer a cop. Amazes me some of you dumb fucks even passed the test to get on this job.. Do you stupid fucks comprehend what you read?
And one more thing. Do you stupid self righteous assholes really believe a "dirty" cop cares what the fuck you think of him? Get over yourselves and do some police work.
You know I love reading this blog. I read all this shit and I am reminded how good it feels to cash a pension check every month. So nice to be in the same boat with all the "dinosaurs" instead of stuck on this fucked up department for another 20 years with these dumb fuck whiney college kids who just want to sit here and tell us how righteous and smart they are.
What are you, the fucking mayor? Its like you are TRYING to be this stupid. Nobody can actually be this stupid.
>>No wonder some of you dumb fucks never pass a test.<<
Lets see if your efforts to appear stupid worked.
>>Ok for the last time one jagoff says any copper who pleads the 5th is a criminal.<<
Anyone pleading the 5th is admitting to being a criminal asswipe. What about "self-incrimination" do you find so fucking confusing?
>>Then it is said coppers can't plead the 5th. On and On and On.<<
Yup, they can. You are deliberately misstating what it fucking says moron. It says they can, but there is no constitutional protection for their job. Of course, if your boss is Daley, than you are protected only if its protecting him.
>> Now read it all again you dumb fucking jagoffs. All the point is yes as an American citizen if have not been granted immunity to testify you can plead the 5th.<<
The point is what? En ingles por favor, estupido! The point is anyone can plead, but it doesn't protect your job. Its. That. Simple.
>> Ok so go tell Phil Cline who admitted that he took the 5th that he is now fired and no longer a cop.<<
Thank you John, or Richie or Phil, or whichever arrogant fuck you are. There are plenty of people who are fired for not incriminating themselves. In fact, if it were a CPD supervisor ordering them to make a statement, the rules themselves say you can be fired for failing to report.
So Fuuuuuuckkk you with your mealy mouth "I dare ya" bullshit.
>>Amazes me some of you dumb fucks even passed the test to get on this job.. Do you stupid fucks comprehend what you read? <<
The arrogance of you cunts amazes me. Seems like there are a lot of old guys pissing themselves in fear at the prospect of their names being released in this report. God forbid they actually followed the oath they took. Fucking cocksuckers.
9:57
Read your general orders dumb fuck.
Criminal versus adminisrtative. You are one dumb fucking new guy know nothing pussy. You can't be ordered when facing criminal charges. You would be given your Miranda rights just like everyone else. You little cunt criminal charges ain't your little too from to OPS pussy. Like I said asshole go fire Phil. Old guys pissing themselves I doubt it kid but maybe those old guys were fucking your Mom back then. Too bad the seed of one of them didn't take at least then you would be a man. Learn the orders and the job fuck nuts before you come on here and disgrace those "old guys" with your ignorance.
9:57
Hey asshole the Mayor sure is stupid but you know what asshole? He's your fucking boss so think how stupid that makes you you little shithead!!!!!!!!
it feels to cash a pension check every month. So nice to be in the same boat with all the "dinosaurs" instead of stuck on this fucked up department for another 20 years
I agree with you, just celebrating my one year of retirement. I really didn't know how much in fighting and differences actually exsist between Police Officers on this Department. I don't how most of them will make it another 15 or 20 years without imploding. I'm moving out of State next year after my wife retires, far, far away!
This is too hilarious. You old fucks gonna eat your guns when you get named? Either you geezers are panicked, or the dementia is setting in.
Who the fuck said the corrupt fuckers were read Miranda rights before the grand jury? More mumbo jumbo from some confused old men.
9:57
Please tell me this guy doesn't work the street and have a partner? Who is gonna get fired for invoking the 5th? Just because you say they should be. You are a joke. You couldn't wipe Burges ass you little pussy.
Anyone got a source or link for Cline pleading the 5th?
10:23
Ok did you really go to college?
9:57 was telling us how you get fired for refusing a supervisor's order the rules say you'll be fired for refusing to make a report. Not if you are brought up on criminal charges. Now nowhere is the Grand Jury mentioned. Mommy and Daddy wasted their money if this is how you college fucks read.
I would love to read the paper you dumb fucks write. If you even write paper too busy I'm sure doing CAPS missions and seat belt checks. You are some dumb fucks.
Hey 10:21 congratulations on the first year. Enjoy it keeps getting better. Scary to see what is coming on this job now. Wonder how it will be around here in 15 or 20 years.
Do they have special prisons for retired POs or is it gen pop?
10:23
Who the fuck said the names in the report were corrupt cops? You are sure a stand up guy calling your fellow PO's corrupt. Used to be the liberal media was the enemy well I have met the enemy and he is us. You pukes are disgusting. Who the hell are you self righteous little assholes to sit and judge the men named in that report. Guilty until proven innocent applies to what the media thinks of us. But now the "new breed" comes on here and acts like the cops in that report are some kind of criminals? Anybody charged criminally here? Burge ever do any time? I hate what this fucking job has become. And these new coppers will get fucked like they deserve you back stabbing little fucks.
All done to protect Daley and the local dems for their role in protecting Burge and co. to avoid embarrasment.
You want an indictment before you believe anyone is guilty? Burge, Daley and a whole lot of others are doing everything they can to bury the release of this report. If its released and Burge and Devine are voted out, then you may see indictments. Or shame or whatever.
Right now, they don't even want anyone to read the report. Why is that?
Is there more than one person here posting all these defenses of Burge? It certainly seems like people are trying to change the subject. Oh, its my rights! No, no, they don't have to talk if they've been Mirandized! B-b-but Cline himself took the 5th!
You clowns obviously see the threat thats been raised. The threat starts with the report coming out, and the rest follows. Keep screaming old guys. See who goes to your benefits. See who stands up for your "rights".
Larry Hoovers in uniform, all of yas.
1. The Miranda Warnings supersede the Department's Administrative Warnings. If you receive the Miranda Warnings you cannot be ordered administratively to make a statement. If, however, you are provided with a declination of prosecution from the appropriate source, you can be ordered to make a statement in an administrative proceeding. This was litigated 25 years ago.
2. During the G's investigation of violations of the Hobbs Act in the early 1970's, several members were called to testify before federal grand juries. Some refused to testify invoking their right against self incrimination. Although this occurred during secret grand jury testimony, somehow the Department was made aware of the refusal to testify and suspended the members. Who violated the law on that one? This issue was litigated long ago and police officer's rights against self incrimination were re-affirmed. You can refuse to incriminate yourself without penalty.
3. In the late 70's the State's Attorney thought it would be a good idea to issue the Miranda Warnings to ALL police officers involved in shooting incidents. Good or not. Make no mistake about it, if you receive the Miranda Warnings, you may be prosecuted. So, Officer A shoots an offender trying to kill him during the commission of, say, a bank robbery. The first thing Officer A would hear from the ASA was the Miranda Warnings. Naturally, the sharper fellows began refusing to make statements. The resultant uproar and confusion soon stopped this practice. It was a political decision as many prosecutions are. This is not a simple uncomplicated environment with clearly defined good and bad. To believe so is to risk becoming a victim.
4. Is it possible to discuss issues in this forum without all of the nonsense?
should look no farther than our own superintendant ,Phil . He was requested to make an appearance in front of a Grand Jury and answered every question by "Taking the Fith". I beleive this took place in the early 80's
6/08/06
9:15PM
I remember him talking about that in an interview a few months ago maybe? I can't remember what the incident was. But we must be mistaken because some of our fellow officers insist that you are immediately fired if you take the 5th. Then again some of theses same coppers think Burge or anyone named in this report are criminals.
the taking of the 5th had to do about allegedly fabricating cause for search warrants
I don't think the argument was that they "had" to be fired. It was that they "could" be, or even "should" be fired.
Does anyone have information on whatever the poster above was talking about in the '70s if a court said the city could not fire you for taking the 5th? That would be an interesting read. Won't believe it unless I see it with my own eyes, but if its true you better believe its something everyone should known
Man... relax...this fucks a states attorney...or a defense attorney....either way someone with a hard on for the police....I doubt he/she is one of us.....they are caught up in the literal translation of the law....got to be a attorney piece of shit...
I'll take the fifth. Make it a quart.
Uhm, yeah, but wouldn't it be good for POs to definitively know if they can take the 5th and not be fired?
It seems like a lot of people are saying they can because they hope they can. It would be a good idea for someone to provide evidence one way or another, and the fact that Cline or someone else did is not the answer. The answer is if a court said, definitely, that the city could not retaliate by firing someone for this.
So did a court or didn't a court? Because if a court didn't, and some PO reading you guys believes they did because you fuckheads said they did, than YOU may be the one tripping up a PO.
So put up or shut the fuck up with your old man wet dreams.
"2. During the G's investigation of violations of the Hobbs Act in the early 1970's, several members were called to testify before federal grand juries. Some refused to testify invoking their right against self incrimination. Although this occurred during secret grand jury testimony, somehow the Department was made aware of the refusal to testify and suspended the members. Who violated the law on that one? This issue was litigated long ago and police officer's rights against self incrimination were re-affirmed. You can refuse to incriminate yourself without penalty."
Sounds reasonable to me....
"You can refuse to incriminate yourself without penalty."
It would be okay with me too, but can anybody provide a single shred saying that this is an accurate statement of legal protection? This would be really good for quite a few POs to know, but taking the word of an anonymous internet source doesn't seem like such a great idea.
Then fucking do the research....and give us all a rest...........
To prove what you are saying? If you believe it, prove it. Otherwise shut the fuck up before you get someone fired. Just because Cline did it doesn't mean they can't fire someone else for doing it.
Great example of this principle is Rodriguez. The guy was supposedly lit half the days he sat in his office. They'd hang anyone else for it in a heartbeat if it became an issue. The fact that they tolerated it from one, for whatever reason, does not mean that they are Constitutionally obligated to tolerate it from anyone else.
Sheesh, the fact that you guys are giving an unsupported legal opinion could itself be considered a crime in Illinois. Its called the unauthorized practice of law. So if you are giving a legal opinion without any basis, and harm results, you should burn in hell for your arrogance and stupidity.
For anyone else, disregard the statements that its Constitutionally protected until you see evidence and proof that it is. Its beyond smelly, and the fact that a member here would put you into a trickbag like this shows exactly the depths to which this department has sunk.
If you are interested, call attorney Roddy from the FOP. He has handles these cases. This hysteria is not helpful. Been to any Round Tables lately? If the PO receives the Miranda Warnings, he says nothing and there is no penalty. You may be suspended for the actions, but not for refusing to incriminate yourself. If you ever receive the Miranda Warnings, heed them. Your considerations in order of importance should be criminal charges, civil liability, the job. If you put yourself in jail, the job is really gone.
1:39
You are a very confused individual. Think before you post or don't post.
Verify, It was laid out for you, yet ye dispute. Pleading 5th is not across the board nor to be taken lightly. Yes, you may be gambling with keeping your job if you take the plea. Read your order's, understand your right's. Did the Training A-Cad bubble wrap your college educated brain's, and scare the piss out of your ability to continue obtaining knowledge? No more baton's to pass huh, thank CAPS. Your all divided, the path set by together we can deep sleep money makin mushhh. Wake up for your own safety.
To 1052
No problem. When you are Mirandized give a nice long statement. Better yet give a written statement and don't leave anything out. Don't forget to sign it and initial the corrections. Be sure to babble about old wet guys whatever that means. Oh yeah, don't worry about being suspended, you'll be doing your time in the joint.
3. In the late 70's the State's Attorney thought it would be a good idea to issue the Miranda Warnings to ALL police officers involved in shooting incidents. Good or not. Make no mistake about it, if you receive the Miranda Warnings, you may be prosecuted. So, Officer A shoots an offender trying to kill him during the commission of, say, a bank robbery. The first thing Officer A would hear from the ASA was the Miranda Warnings. Naturally, the sharper fellows began refusing to make statements. The resultant uproar and confusion soon stopped this practice. It was a political decision as many prosecutions are. This is not a simple uncomplicated environment with clearly defined good and bad. To believe so is to risk becoming a victim.
Did this really happen
Man, whoever is posting this is sure confused. Why would you worry about your job if the above posters are right that you don't have to worry about your job?
Do they Mirandize every witness in a grand jury? If not, the example of Mirandized POs in a roundtable is not helpful.
As for the rest, if I committed a serious crime which I did not want to acknolwedge, characterize, describe (or lie about), I would plead the 5th and let the job drop me in a minute. Which (for the poster who raised this concern) brings us back to the original point.
Why did the brass and State's Attorneys plead the 5th again (if that report is true)?
And 430, despite the namecalling, I think you actually agreed with me in your post. You know, the part where you mention "gambling" etc.
I'm not the one arguing absolutes here. I'm asking for someone else to justify why they did. So far, no evidence has been forthcoming that one is generally not subject to retaliation from an employer for pleading the 5th, let alone under the circumstances here (law enforcement personnel pleading the 5th rather than testify about matters pertaining to their employment).
5:00
How right you are. Miranda usually occurs during an investigation prior to court procedings. If you hear them, shut up. If you are a subpoena witness at the grand jury or any court hearing, you are not obligated to testify against yourself. You can take the Fifth. Get a lawyer. Although the lawyer cannot actually go into the grand jury room with you, you can leave the room and consult him before answering any questions. As far as proof, do you know of or have heard of any officer suffering a penalty for invoking his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination? If you hear something, look at it critically and/or evaluate the source. Otherwise, just keep cursing the darkness.
The Department obliges us to testify in criminal proceedings where we are not the defendant. You should know if you are the defendant.
The original question indicates that everyone pleading the Fifth is guilty. If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. Extrapolating that out logically means if you have nothing to fear then a little midnight knock on the door and a random warrantless search of your house shouldn't bother you. The Bill of Rights is about protecting citizens from governmental excesses. It protects everyone from governmental abuses. Invoking them is not an indication of guilt. Remember the innocent until proven guilty thing. Ever arrest the wrong guy. It happens. If he says he won't talk to us is he guilty. The world is not divided into neat compartments of good and bad.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FBdSwHLzxbEJ:timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp%3FstoryID%3D430887%26category%3DALBANY%26BCCode%3DHOME%26newsdate%3D12/17/2005+fired+for+pleading+the+5th&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
New York prosecutor fired for pleading the fifth in front of an Illinois grand jury
But the state of the law appears to be unclear. See http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con016.pdf footnote 202 relating to the Slochower case and the text leading to it. At one point in the '50s, the Supreme Court took issue with a school board firing teachers for pleading. But subsequent cases limited the decision, and the Slochower case itself seems to be pleading the fifth in inquiries not directly related to their employment.
See http://www.vlex.us/constitution/Constitution-of-the-United-States-Annotated/Fifth-Amendment-Rights-of-Persons/2100-263834,01.html and the text around footnote 202. Specifically, if your pleading the fifth related to questions about your job duties, you are not protected.
Have at it old guys. Its not like Chicago or Cook County are going to fire anyone when the leadership itself is being accused (Daley, Devine). But whoever is arguing the absolute right and protection for pleading the fifth is demented.
622
Okay, you are right. Just follow the instructions on 04:41's post. You should have plenty of time to blog. What is your obsession with old people?
Your job duties do not include criminal acts. So take the Fifth.
6:38, read the fucking string and see the attacks on young people. Realize that its a bunch of old Mt. Greenwood KKK members who were here screaming about how little I know.
I'm not the one who is obsessed with old people. I'm just looking forward to seeing Daley and Devine embarrassed nationally for protecting dozens of current and former civil servants who can and should have been fired.
And, FWIW, I think I've made it very clear that if I were in their shoes I would have pleaded the fifth in a heartbeat if I did anything wrong. In. A. Heartbeat. Never said otherwise. So take your advice and stick it up an old guy's ass. It might help prepare them for the future if this report gets released.
Old people, young people, Mt Greenwood KKK E_GADS Bazookaaaa Blammmmmm, splattt..... What in dam-nation spiraling down do you speak of. Blogger's were trying to explain the 5th and it's content to various loop's and turns and law case applied to it. The 5th is serious shit, you in trouble? Someone quick do a head count to make sure were all present and accounted for.
Police officers can and have plead the 5th Amendment in Federal Court and have NOT been disciplined. It does NOT mean they are GUILTY of a CRIME. I would say that most times this happens at the direction of their attorneys and there could be so many different reasons for taking the 5th, each case is different, and within each case, each person's election to take the 5th is different.... and it is not an easy decision to make. (I am NOT referencing the Burge case here)
In a way, it is unfortunate that the "suspense" created by keeping the Burge report under wraps is creating a big stir that won't die down until it is released.
The reality is that the report will come out eventually, some people will get hurt by it, probably all of us in Law Enforcement will get hurt - if only because of the negative publicity it generates, and then we will move on from there - one more "scandal" over with.
It is people like 07:36:01 who drag this blog to new lows by ranting illogically about their personal demons. Did it ever occur to 07:36:01 that not everyone posting is "old" from Mt.Greenwood or a member of the KKK or has a rectal fixation.
" screaming about how little I know."
You have shown that. Old or young.
Great! Now we got a young Mount Greenwooe know it all.
Re: 01:39 poster,
Is anyone else as astounded as I am by the stupidity of this jagoof?
Its amazing that the last 5 posters all show up in a row with their short thoughts and stupid fucking namecalling. Now that the position taken by most of you dumbfucks has been shown to be wrong, its great that you can point out that maybe not all of you are old guys in Mt. Greenwood.
Good job dumbfucks. I might have just saved you or someone else from getting fired. Someone had to debunk the thoughts that many of you were pulling out of your asses and posting on here as the gospel of wise and experienced POs.
Yeah, I'm sorry about rubbing your faces in it, but thew new low is when some know-it-all dumbfucks, whether its 1 or 20 of you, come here and start posting that there is an absolute right to plead the 5th and still keep your job. Its YOUR stupidity that gets people in trouble.
You haven't saved shit...how about giving us some cases(complete with dates and file numbers) of Chicago police fired for taking the fifth.....your ego is astounding to say the least....go back to your law books....and give us a rest.....jackass....Oh by the way thename calling was started by you...mr.anonymous....try saying your shit to some of these "Old Guys" who will then hand you your ass...........
9:26, keep on walking around like you can't be fired for it. The report is getting released. The reason you or some other dumbfucks are screaming like little girls is because you realize the public pressure that will result. The public pressure will fall on many heads.
And if its the heads of those current city and county workers who pleaded the 5th, than it could be because (if they weren't involved in wrongdoing but still refused to testify) they listened to you or some other dumbfuck pulling your constitutional thoughts out of your asses.
Its already shown that you can be fired. The fact that the city may not have fired someone for this previously does not mean that they can't in the future. Proceed at YOUR own risk, but don't lead others down your bullshit strewn path.
The stupidity and arrogance of you fucking know-it-alls never fails to astound. As long as Uncles Richie and Phil got your back, s'all gonna be okay, right? Moron.
No matter. You've been shown to be wrong and I've been shown to be right. Eat shit.
You are a wacko who loves to read his/her own rantings..........enough said......
Fifth Amendment protections apply wherever and whenever an individual is compelled to testify. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the privilege against self-incrimination applies whether the witness is in Federal or state court (see Malloy v. Hogan, 378 U.S. 1 (1964)), and whether the proceeding itself is criminal or civil (see McCarthy v. Arndstein, 266 U.S. 34 (1924)).
10:16, true, but it doesn't change the answer to whether you can be terminated for taking the 5th and refusing to answer questions relating to your job performance.
As noted, I'd take the 5th in a heartbeat. Uhm, that is, if I did something wrong.
Some goof is pretending to be a lawyer here arguing that you can't be fired for it. And this kind of misleading BS is the kind of thing that gets people in trouble.
No idea what motive they might have for posting the BS, but it certainly ain't the best interests of any PO reading this.
Hey! I'm a proud Mt. Greenwood residing copper from 022. Trust me dog asses on 022's 3rd watch KNOW who I am. Wise up yongsters-Ole Boy here can teach y'all something that may one day save a life...maybe yer own!!! Can I help it if other coppers don't want to serve and protect? I got you covered pal!
-022 copper
To SCC
Would it be possible to divide the blog into two parts? Part one would be used by vulgar, name-calling, know-it-alls, who have unresolved issues with their parents. It would be known as the Children's Blog. Part two would be for polite, reasoned discourse and unemotional give and take. It would be known as the Adult Blog.
I second that....this chest thumping has got me worn out.........
Where is Northside when we need him?
Northside is on holiday in Novosibirsk. He will be taking the Trans-Siberian railroad to Irkutsk for a fishing trip on Lake Baikal next week.
Is Tyrone with him? Can they both swim?
Tyrone will meet up with Northside in early July in Ulan Bator.
Later, they will be staying in an upscale yurt while hunting Mongolian beaver.
Is there a Mongolian beaver tax yet in Chicago? Can Northside afford to pay it if he brings some back?
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