Bad Ending?
Actually, one could make the argument that this was actually a GOOD (not great) ending to the hostage incident in 003 last night and this morning:
- the situation was contained
- the casualty count was kept to a minimum plus one
- no coppers injured
We don't have any experience in hostage incidents, therefore we aren't going to pass judgment on what was or wasn't done at the scene. We know there is a protocol in place to give out ZERO information to the press and public. We've heard that aside from a threat to life situation, SWAT is under orders to talk and negotiate until hell freezes over (only NYPD talks longer than CPD - LAPD has no patience for talk). You aren't going to stop a crazy person from getting in the first hit or shot or move or whatever. Police work is REACTIONARY and CPD is more reactionary than most Departments (which is, in our opinion, attributable to the political environment we work in). Yes, a hostage being lost is a tragedy - but the tragedy is limited.
Coverage at Channel 2, Channel 5, Channel 7, Sun Times, Tribune.
Our only aside in this whole incident is where was the robot and could it have made a difference?
Coverage at Channel 2, Channel 5, Channel 7, Sun Times, Tribune.
Our only aside in this whole incident is where was the robot and could it have made a difference?
posted by SCC at 12:00 PM
91 Comments:
Next time, trade the hostage for the Rev. Jesse Jackson, Peter Karl and a large pitcher of Kool Aid.
I took time due and I don't like going into bad neighborhoods. Those crazy people are scary.
Off Topic:
Captains made today, 18 named, all start training Monday, 5 will be made, the rest as attrition dictates, don't have the list yet, if someone get's it, please post.
Congrads to all, hopefully some good ones in the group.
Good work to all involved officers..you sacraficed your Holiday and time with your loved ones, to try to help an individual Hell bent on "self-Destruction" AND you all went home safe!
Don't let the critisism sure to follow bother you guys. YOU DID AS YOU WERE TRAINED AND PROBABLY ACTED AS MUCH AS RESTRICTIVE CPD POLICY WOULD ALLOW.
But, unfortunatly the media is already reporting that the victims family didn't feel CPD did enough. If on the other hand you acted and it went badly they would suggest you acted to swiftly and should have talked longer.
Sounds like the equation is lose/lose. WE GET STUCK IN THE MIDDLE EITHER WAY and get second guessed!
Don't listen to that non-sense from the media or citizen groups.
YOU GUYS and GIRLS are still MY HEROS! Now go enjoy your well earned Thanksgiving day Holiday with your families AND GIVE THANKS!!
CAPTAINS LIST
Nagode 001
Roberts 006
O'Donnell 006
Raymond 006
Parra 007
Denk 013
Forlenza 126
O'Neill 126
Bay 141
Elmer 170
Angarone 189
Graeber 189
Schmitz 214
Pilipuf 253
Thompson 384
Trahanas 543
Gibson 601
Batrich 650
Currently, approx 155 out of 259 Lieutenants are assigned to districts. For the mathematically impaired, that's 60%.
Why is it then that only 6 out of the 18 to be promoted (only 33%), are from districts??????????
I guess those Lieutenants that do the job every day aren't qualified to be promoted.
WHY DO WE HAVE SNIPERS FOR? I AGREE WITH TALKING FIRST BUT COME ON HOW ABOUT SOME ACTION....OTHER POSSIBLE OFFENDERS ARE WATCHING
Yeah, we sure got a stellar, top-notch SWAT team!
Their 3 modes of operation are...
1: Secure and contain scene.
2: Wait it out.
3: Drink coffee and hold a big gun while waiting for something to happen.
This was always E Fred Bosse's method of handling a hostage/barricade incident. All that gung-ho training and high cost equipment just to do the same shit that could be done by 3 or 4 beat cars and a Sergeant. That's just one of many reasons I left the unit.
What a useless, impotent and pathetic bunch our SWAT team is!
Watch for the news story in the Slum Times when the victim's family sues the city because our SWAT team sat around and didn't swing into the windows from grappling hooks and stuff to save the poor hostage.
IMO, it's pretty pathetic that the CPD SWAT team/CNT didn't take action on this, when they could've.
As we all know, there comes a time when the talking has to stop and action is needed.
Sadly, it appears the CPD SWAT Team (and/or its commander) didn't know when that was...
This department's administration is sooooooooo afraid of using force its a disgrace. After twenty three hours, I don't think the guys going to give up. Why have snipers on this department if you're not going to use them, why have high-risk entry teams if you're not going to use them? It was almost a replay from that movie Hostage, with the same result.
I have no HBT experience and can’t comment on the correctness of the tactics employed but I can tell you what I witnessed. I am not a member of SWAT nor am I assigned to the 3rd district. I responded to a 10-1 and got to see how things at my vantage point went down as I monitored citywide 5. There are plenty of critics of the departments inaction and some even say we are the laughing stock of other departments.
I’m sure serious SWAT teams throughout the country aren’t sitting around Monday morning quarterbacking like we seem to do to ourselves on a regular basis. Should they have entered sooner rather than later? My lack of patience says yes! The death of the hostage in hind sight would lead you to believe they should have. However, I don’t get paid to make those decisions. When I arrived on the scene only minutes after the 10-1 was broadcast I saw many officers behind cover with their weapons drawn. Shortly after I had arrived a unit was on the air relating that a witness had informed them that the offender had shot four people including a 6 year old child in the apartment. Within 15 minutes I witnessed 3-4 SORT officers begin to move into the building then I heard a shot ring out. No word over the air that the shot was fired at the police nor by the police. I believe that SWAT was gong to move in on this guy based on that information of 4 people shot and not knowing their condition. Shortly afterward another unit came on the air and had new information that in fact no one had been shot. This appeared to be important information because SWAT was then able to make contact with him and he released at least three people including a 6 year old unharmed. Now why this hadn’t been reported to the public is beyond me. The press listens to all zones including citywide and had that information. Did the department feel they could work it out with him since he had already released people unharmed? I’m sure that was part of the process but unfortunately for the victim it didn’t work out that way. Does the department deserve criticism? Every damn day, but in this case I think it was tough call and it may have been the wrong one no matter which path they would have taken. Thank God none of our guys were hurt.
Hey Dana ,
Great HBT scene ! You took charge and 2 people are dead because you have NO fucken BALLS ! You couldn't lead a horse to water you dumb fuck. Retire or grow some nuts.
I recall a few years ago a suspect holding an infant at knifepoint, running back and forth, MFing the police. Patrolmen on scene had open shots at this clown, but on scene supervisors ordered restraint. The guy finally gave up, probably due to exhaustion, or boredom. I thought to myself, fluke, surely the mighty CPD could not be this screwed up as an organization, this must be a district-unique set of incompetent bosses. I GUESS I WAS WRONG!!! What a collection of dipshits, all those scrambled eggs on their baseball cap clods. The mayor hates the police, and the people he promotes stand as evidence of this hatred. What better way could he have to humiliate this entire organization; he must laugh his ass off watching these stuffed shirt idiots on TV, I know I do.
Hostage negotiation has never been an exact science. The officers did the best they could with what they had. The fact that the siege took a long time is a strong sign that our buys and girls on the scene were doing the right stuff. You can’t win them all. The goon news is no cop was hurt.
The motto of the Hostage Negotiator is SEMPER PATINA....ALWAYS PATIENT.
What kind of message does this send, We'll talk to you until you want to kill yourself along with someone else. I put no blame on the, sorry I'm old school, HBT officers because I know for a fact thet down to a man they wanted to go in and get this ballonhead. The thing is that the softballs running the show and calling the shots are clueless. As you can tell by their comments afterwards. No shots fired by police. WTF. Do you think Cline can persuade other departments throughout the country to follow our Elite HBT teams lead and respond by containing and talking to a person until he kills. Great negotiating by our well trained negotiators. You guys should be pushing a beat car this morning!!!!!!!!!!!
The following Lieutenants were promoted to Captain on today's date:
PILIPUF, Cindy
SCHMIDT, Leo
ANGRONE, Ken
BAY, Roger
ELMER, Rick
That is all for now. . .
Well go figure....
The "family" is on the news saying that the POOLEECE should have done more.
The over/under on the lawsuit is 4 days...I'm taking the under, Monday is 3 days away.
Why is it that everytime there is a tragedy in the ghetto - we get the same old song and dnace from the locals?
I guess it IS all about Da Benjamens....do you really think they care that a family members has died? I do not. I think they are thinking of Eugene Pincham, $$$, and the newest set of TimBaLand kicks....
Our HBT team now is no more tham a bunch of overtrained, arrogant, self serving assholes. They think they are better than Patrol? NO FUCKING WAY. HBT was better when they had Patrol Officers who were on call, not these home-invading, pompous little jagoffs.
maybe Leo Schmitz could take some of Charlie Williams juice out of his ass and use it to clear up his face. Merit Sgt, Merit Lt, Merit Capt, the trifecta! I'm sure the department could find someone more incompetent to promote three times without ever passing a test but all of the other illiterate ass kissers have already been promoted.
we come into hostage situations, already down by 4 touchdowns, halfway theough the 4th quarter.
The hostage taker has all the high cards and we have none.
We are then asked to turn a lump of shit into a diamond.
We cant always pull a rabbit out of our hats
I think we did a great job. Theres just some things that we cant fix
Hold your heads high.
Glad youre all home safe
Retiree
the situation was contained
the casualty count was kept to a minimum plus one
no coppers injured
SCC imagine for a moment that it was your loved one that was killed yesterday. Would you still be happy with the end result??
Leo is a complete fucking moron. It's all about Leo all the time. Thank God you are gone can you take 1169 with you?
Congrats to Angrone and Pilipuf it's well deserved.
Did Lance Johnson demand Kools or Newports?
If this guy was shooting up the neighborhood why wasn't progressive police action taken at the start. In the "old days" each district took care of their own problems. But, as usual, it's everybody back off, make a big production and wait til somebody else makes a decesion.
We cannot give the brass a chance to get off their fat asses, come to the scene and scew it up.
Several weeks ago two northside P.Os answered a home-invasion in progress. They went up to the door with guns in holsters knocked and opened the door, saw the offenders in ski masks and weapons. The officers slammed the door and ran to their car. Offenders scampered out the back door.
Maybe this is what they are taught nowadays. No confrontation, No bad publicity, No hostilities. Everyone is happy. These days should be called "DEATH OF THE POLICEMEAN" because they, the POLICEMEN, are going quickly.
What was with Tina Skankhill's hair?! Where's an inspector when you need one.....and how about Phat Phil? A Bear's hat?! Do you think he would be mad if I wore my Homer Simpson's baseball cap with my uniform?
"Actually, one could make the argument that this was a GOOD (not great) ending..."
-SCC
Actually one could NOT make such an argument, at least no one sane. I see nothing even remotely positive in what went down on Jeffery.
When a hostage is KILLED, "good" is not the adjective that immediately comes to mind--for most of us.
Once again SCC you astound me.
maybe we should have called Dallas??
the situation was contained
the casualty count was kept to a minimum plus one
no coppers injured
SCC imagine for a moment that it was your loved one that was killed yesterday. Would you still be happy with the end result??
We've seen some asinine questions asked before, but this is top ten material.
Of course we wouldn't be happy. And we even stated that the loss of a hostage is a tragedy. Now look at the facts on the ground:
<1>It was contained to a single household. This is a GOOD thing. The potential for damage is now limited to a very small area. This isn't like Charles Whitman picking off dozens of targets from a tower. This is a single gunman, armed with only a pistol, unable to bring harm to hundreds of other innocents.
<2>The casualty count was kept to a minimum plus one. EVERY life lost is a tragedy to someone. Would you rather have 2 or 3 or 4 funerals? And a dead cop or 2? It wasn't a win-win situation. It was degrees of loss. And it wasn't the police's fault it was like that. We react. He held more aces than we did. Oh well.
<3>no coppers injured. Any day that all 10,000 or so cops go home in one piece is a good day. We don't know why it seems you're cheering for an honors funeral or two, but we've been to way too many over the years to think that it's a fun time.
Based on what happened, it turned out about the best it could. Is it perfect, no - it hardly ever is. But that isn't the fault of the CPD SWAT boys.
Who was in charge of this CLUSTER-FUCK?
anonymous wrote:
"Shortly afterward another unit came on the air and had new information that in fact no one had been shot. This appeared to be important information because SWAT was then able to make contact with him and he released at least three people including a 6 year old unharmed. Now why this hadn’t been reported to the public is beyond me. The press listens to all zones including citywide and had that information."
That's right, but you can't report something as fact unless you see it or the police tell you what has happened and this department pretty much tells the media nothing, unless they want good publicity for something.
I just can't believe this. People discriminating against robots!! What is this all about? Do you have something against smart metal objects? We're gonna have a robot rally down to city hall!! Robot racists
Based on what happened, it turned out about the best it could. Is it perfect, no - it hardly ever is. But that isn't the fault of the CPD SWAT boys.
11/25/2006 12:02:16 AM
No, it is not. Every one of them I'm sure wanted to boot that door in, blast that guy square in the face, and save the girl. God knows I would if I was there.
You just seemed too blase (accent over the "e") about this whole thing. Maybe you are not conveying your concern over the keyboard so well....
But, if MY wife or child was being held hostage, *I* would not want the brass to sit around waiting listening for two shots, then a gun clanking to the floor, before they give SWAT the ok to enter.
*I* wouldn't want their last vision to be that P.O.S. If this is going to be the policy of the dept, then it makes me even more scared to be forced to reside here. Better take your spouse to the range, guys!
Anyway, thanks for posting and responding. Our opinions don't count, but that shouldn't keep us from voicing them.
Maybe the police who on viewed it should have booted the door and taken care of matters. After all the badguy fired a shot at them. I say the hell with waiting be the police!
Several weeks ago two northside P.Os answered a home-invasion in progress. They went up to the door with guns in holsters knocked and opened the door, saw the offenders in ski masks and weapons. The officers slammed the door and ran to their car. Offenders scampered out the back door.
Maybe this is what they are taught nowadays. No confrontation, No bad publicity, No hostilities. Everyone is happy. These days should be called "DEATH OF THE POLICEMEAN" because they, the POLICEMEN, are going quickly.
I assisted on that job. If you talked to the POs in question, you would know that they tried to trap the bad guys in the basement until backup arrived in the rear. Sorry to say we got to the back door about 15 secs after they kicked it open and fled. 1 guy has been on the job over 10 yrs and the other is a rookie from somewhere on the south side.
I read the interview with Dana Starks, it seemed like he was patting himself on the back because "the CPD never fired a weapon". You have got to be kidding me! A hostage is dead, because you decided to wait it out instead of taking action.This was a new low, I hope the media crucifies the department, and I hope the family breaks the city!
I went to the FBI crisis negotiation class. The theme that was repeatedwas that a successfull negotiation is one that ends with no Law Enforcement personnel being killed or injured. this incident was successfull from that standpoint.From what I read negotiators did what they were supposed to do.After confering with Lead negotiator and HBT Boss, it is up to the highest ranking Command Boss on whether to go Tactical or not.Unfortunately, hostage was killed, but thank God all CPD safe!!Good Job Guys and Girls!!!
11/25/2006 12:02:16 AM
WOW !! SCC, knows everything about HBT too...what an idiot....CPD BLEW IT THIS TIME !!
Hey 11:46:06-
I didn't hear about this incident up north. Tell us more please.
Where are the SWAT guys now that were talking shit about Lt J.G. & Sgt J.S. after the Gang Intelligence shoot out? At least they had the balls to shoot first. SWAT should learn to keep their mouths shut. They deal in theory since they never take action. However, the black nomex balaclavas looked awesome on the news.
I'm happy, there's two less IR'S out there to victimize the rest of society.
All that gung-ho training and high cost equipment just to do the same shit that could be done by 3 or 4 beat cars and a Sergeant. That's just one of many reasons I left the unit.
What a useless, impotent and pathetic bunch our SWAT team is!
No I'm not on the SWAT team nor have I ever been on and probably never will be, and yes I do have more than two years on (many more) but how can you criticize these guys for not bum-rushing into this place or "taking a shot" when they were ordered not too. Would you risk losing your job to be the hero of the day, or the villain depending on the outcome. If anybody's useless, pathetic and impotent it was the guys with the scrambled eggs on their heads for their lack of testosterone, so don't blame these guys for the lack of balls of the higher ups. Maybe this lawsuit will name them in it and things will finally get done. Quite possibly a blessing in disquise?
Several weeks ago two northside P.Os answered a home-invasion in progress. They went up to the door with guns in holsters knocked and opened the door, saw the offenders in ski masks and weapons. The officers slammed the door and ran to their car. Offenders scampered out the back door.
Please tell me you are kidding and your next comment will be, "April Fools"
Firtst of all if you believe that I wanted to spend 20hrs on Thanksgiving Day standing in some idiots hallway and away from my family you are Dead!! wrong. Secondly don't blame the SWAT team for following orders. We have upper management make our decisions for us and there was alot more invloved in this situation then what was put on the news.Most of all, We don't have high tech equipment and 90% of our sniper rifles are not good over 20yrs old. The city refuses to buy us the equipment we need.Street cameras are more important. Things may have been different with the poper equipment.
Did anyone see the chanel 5 news that night? The bosses and the p.O's on scene looked like shit! Then the Sup. shows up in a frigging Bears hat and jeans. We look real unprofesional and fucked up.
That F-1 chief or whatever rank she got as a gift looked like she fell out of bed and her weave was all messed up on top sat a cpd baseball cap. What a joke!
Great Job Dana!
The best you could say on TV is “We work seven days a week, 24 hours a day, always on the job, rain or shine.” Not appropriate for the occasion in my opinion. How about sticking to the situation at hand when issuing a comment.
You might be a good spokesman for the post office, but you made an ass out of the police department.
As for Cline, he looked like he just came from a Bears party sporting his bears hat. I was always taught dress for success. And good appearance commands respect. You could have played the part of our commander and chief in uniform as you would want us little people to appear on TV.
This was watched on TV nationwide. As always, people will be talking for months to come how the CPD is a bunch of goof’s.
So the lesson learned and confirmed is;
Bring out the big guns, sit around and do nothing until bad guy gives up or kills himself and everybody else. Kind of like our pursuit policy.
OOPS, Im sorry, that’s a bad word. There is no pursuit policy. Don’t chase.
Let everybody do what they want. If they still don’t like the police response, let them file a law suit or CR number.
No Balls!!!
Coldtype said...
When a hostage is KILLED, "good" is not the adjective that immediately comes to mind--for most of us.
Once again SCC you astound me.
Yeah, well that ain't hard to do. We've seen your political arguments. How about "less than perfect?" Would that fit into your naive world view of magic bullets, white hats vs. black hats, and whatever other rainbow filled fantasy world you live in? What would you have us do? Or don't you have a plan for that either?
"Less than perfect" (by definition) is "good." It isn't very good, but it isn't "tragedy of epic proportions" either. Sorry you argue with definitions, but cops went home safe. If you can't see the good in that, you're in the wrong line of work. In fact, that's probably your biggest failing - you can't see the "us v them" mentality. Too much college, not enough high school. Too bad you didn't have a decent Patrol Specialist.
Anonymous said...
WOW !! SCC, knows everything about HBT too...what an idiot....CPD BLEW IT THIS TIME !!
Please define the "blew it" portion of your argument. Explain SWAT tactics and hoistage negotiation to us. We've already stated we didn't have Hostage incident experience, but at least we made the effort to seek out some expert opinion and found that CPD SWAT followed the FBI playbook in this case. Evidently, we should have come to you instead as you know everything and can Monday morning quarteback with the best of them without offering one single iota of proof. Enlighten us. oh Buddha. Show us where we (and SWAT) made an error. Softball.
thanks you ass holes, I was on scene for 23 hours missed thanksgiving with my family get criticized by the public and get no support from my fellow officers... SWAT main function is to preserve life. I am a athlete and hate to lose, well in this incident we lost and this pisses me off!!!!! It pisses me off because I missed so much for nothing.. All I see is criticism from my fellow officers but they provide no solutions to the problem... So come you know it alls, whats the solution?????? This was a second floor apartment and he had the front door barricaded with a couch and love seat that was squished between the door and a wall, no way getting in there without someone removing them from the inside and at the back door he barricaded that with a refridgerator and a stove...... either way it would take us awhile to get into the apartment, this would give him time to kill the hostage, thats why we tried to talk him out. As far as a sniper shot, we had a sniper up but couldn't make shot because the shades were pulled down. we had know idea where he was in the apartment, we had nothing. The only thing we had was that he would talk to us, So fuck Off. So come on whats the solution??????? To scc: I think you should terminate this web site because all it does is promote hatred and anger among us, unless you work in 11 or 15 or a beat car you are a kiss ass or a jagoff who doesn't belong on this department. Half the stuff people post on here are lies. This site use to be good for information but now I think it is dividing us!!!!!
for your info Lt.JG and SGT. JS both came from sos and JG was a HBT SGT, so we would never bad mouth these two, their one of us. So know what the hell you are talking about before talking shit again
Some of you guys love to talk shit, that is why you're still in a beat car and will retire in a beat car. I worked hard when I was in a beat car, went to all the jobs that were assisgned to me and my partner. I made it SOS after several years of waiting ( yes no clout ),have been there for over 10 years. We had great bosses at one time just like in the dist when I was there. When this incident happened the SORT cars responded to the 10-1 most of yoour PO's were hiding behind squad cars. They could have gone in to the apt. and shot the Off. Did they....No the did not, they made it a HBT job. SWAT shows up and wants to go in but they have to wait it out, they do and decide if another shot is fired they will make entry, they did...the Off. shoots the hostage and himself. Why? Because he was a pussy...just like some and I do say SOME of you pussy cops......love to talk a big game and a lot of shit and have never ever done a fuckin thing on this job.......and never will......to the officers that go out and do their job God Bless and stay safe and we will always come to back up and help a fellow officer even if he is a pussy with no balls...........
Usually, I'm in greement with you,SCC... but this time you're wrong. Had the SWAT team sat for 3 or 4 (or even up to 6) hours to try to negotiate a peaceful ending, that would have been prudent and understandable. But 23 HOURS????
Now, we all know this was a management decision of the ball-less bosses on scene. But ultimately, it's the SWAT team itself and our department that ends up looking stupid and ineffective... and morale, once again, dives to a new low. When you look at the major scandals facing this department right now, (SOS debacle, the girl tossed out the window, etc) it's the incompetency of these merit-promoted bosses that allowed these situations to be borne out, fester, and snowball into huge scandals. Yet, it's the rest of us "blue-shirts" that take the hit at the end of the day. I'm sure the SWAT guys are frustrated with having to work for bosses who make decisions based on what the lawyers will think when they dissect the whole scenario when the imminent lawsuits are filed. Just think of the great new rifles that our SWAT team could have got if the city hadn't purchased "Robbie the Robot"... which will probably never get used, anyway! Thank God I only have a few years left of this Department and this Godforsaken, Dumb-o-crat controlled city!
Oh, and congrats to Rick Elmer and Cindy ("BIG gun") Pilipuf. Both are a class act and a pleasure to work with in 011 back in the day.
11/25/2006 10:36:31 AM
Dearest SCC Suckhole, are you trying to get on SWAT ? An innocent (as far as we CPD provided an audience for that whacked out asshole. Next time have Dana pass out popcorn and snowcaps to all the on-scene officers. Even Roger Ebert would give this performance a parylized thumb down. Good Luck getting on HBT.
PS Don't forget to start Sunday's Bears blog and what they need to do. You really do know everything.
What a Cluster F--k, from Phat on down, someone in charge should have understood that this guy didn't just take a hostage, he first opened fire on a civilian b-4 the hostage incident began, who luckily escaped with his life.. DUH ??? Doesn't anyone have the common sense to realize that the guy was VIOLENT, and bent on SHOOTING someone ? I'd rather have the local pizza delivery driver come than the SWAT -cloutboys, if myself or my family needed help. I know he packs and can take care of business if needed.
But what can you expect from a dept. that has most all their higher-ups people in spots due to clout, not proven police ability and proven skills. And how about arriving on scene looking professional like you expect everyone else to look. Can you spell EMBARRASSMENT ?? Hey, get some popcorn and Kool-Aid, and watch some t.v documentaries on how real SWAT teams do things.
Great, SWAT follows the FBI playbook. Is that the same playbook they all followed when they left CPD Det Joe Airhart laying on the floor for 1.5 hours bleeding to death after a deranged gunman shot him in the head ? You ALL should be TOTALLY ashamed of yourselves.
ATTENTION-This is the REAL world, if you can't handle it, go back to playing classroom commandos.
Fuck you, and Fuck the FBI
Hats off to all involved in the hostage tragedy at 69th & Jeffery blvd. Lots of tense hours spent out there handling that sticky situation. A special thank you to Lts. Rich Mancha and Vic Guererri of the SWAT Team, who rode this out until the end. I know you and your men have to be exhausted, not to mention whatever plans you had to be with your families were trashed. Everything that could have been done, was done. One basic rule of negotiation is, that one cannot reason with an unreasonable mind. The guy was a wack job, off his meds, who knew he was fucked on this one. He had nothing to lose. All the Police on the scene of this incident could do was to minimize the casualties, and they did that. I salute all of you who worked so hard to save that woman's life. Please diregard the "take the hill now" idiots who obviously know nothing of what you do, and how hard you continuously prepare to do what you do! Hope your families saved you some turkey & pie; You're ALL heroes in my book.
Even though I'll admit our exempts looked like incompetent idiots with their interview skills.As a department I dont blame the CPD for handling the cituation the way it was. We are not running ourselves, the lawyers are running us. We are always worried if we do this, then we can be sued for it.
Since the family is now saying that their family member is dead because of our in-action and if she was killed because we stormed the apartment, either way we are blamed and will have to deal with a lawsuit.
So I say make the family sign a waiver, a)wait it out at all cost or b) storm in and attempt a rescue. Once a decision is made by the family, they cannot sue the department after the outcome of the decision the signed off on.
Where are the SWAT guys now that were talking shit about Lt J.G. & Sgt J.S. after the Gang Intelligence shoot out? At least they had the balls to shoot first.
*********************************
The Gang Int. shootout was just that! They shot at each other! and scored a hit !
The SWAT heavy weapons marked Tahoes were supposed to street-stop the offenders. Instead Gang Int. covert cars did the stop.
Zero intelligence required to work in Gang Intel ?
To all of those who like to criticize with out knowing what you are talking about I will give you the facts. If a hostage taker is not actively hurting the hostage you can not make an assault. If you do and the hostage taker hurts the hostage the police are the ones held civilly liable. There is case law and a supreme court ruling on this. If you don't believe me look it up or call another swat team and ask them. Second the asshole had the place well barricaded before SWAT arrived. There was no way to make a fast entry. Do you really think he wouldn't have been able to hurt the hostage during the time it would have taken to make entry. There were snipers set up and they were given the green light, but unfortunately the guy new what he was doing and kept all of the blinds shut. This was a no win situation from the start. You have two choices make entry and hope to god he doesn't hurt the hostage because your ass is responsible civilly if he does. Or you try and wait it out and hope the negotiator can convince him to let the hostage go. So what would you do?
Anonymous said...
Dearest SCC Suckhole, are you trying to get on SWAT ?
Don't need to get on SWAT, don't want to be on SWAT. Happy where we are.
An innocent (as far as we CPD provided an audience for that whacked out asshole. Next time have Dana pass out popcorn and snowcaps to all the on-scene officers.
We're assuming you use English as a second language. We'll try to respond: Yes, an innocent died. Shit happens. There weren't going to be any winners in this one. Have you read how it was barricaded on the second floor? No one was getting in that apartment without something VERY BAD happening. And the shades drawn? Have you ever read the General Orders regarding shooting into buildings blind? If you ever took an exam, you'd know it.
Even Roger Ebert would give this performance a parylized thumb down. Good Luck getting on HBT.
OK brainiac. How would you have run it differently? Forced entry? How? Window Entry? How? Tunnel? Ceiling? Tell SWAT what you would have done - or don't you have any answers? You have shit for brains and we're proving it over and over again here.
PS Don't forget to start Sunday's Bears blog and what they need to do. You really do know everything.
We'll have it up tonight. Thanks for the reminder. What would we ever do without you here to tell us everything? You don't like our opinions, go troll elsewhere. You're boring us.
That was the FBI's scene, not CPD's. You want to criticise the FBI, knock your socks off. But CPD HBT had to be ordereed to stand down when they wanted to storm the building to get Joe out. Sgt. H.A.S. almost had to be physically restrained from going in. That was an FBI fuckup. This scene was run by the book.
To scc: I think you should terminate this web site because all it does is promote hatred and anger among us, unless you work in 11 or 15 or a beat car you are a kiss ass or a jagoff who doesn't belong on this department. Half the stuff people post on here are lies. This site use to be good for information but now I think it is dividing us!!!!!
No, it just makes the assholes easier to spot. We'll be keeping it up for a bit.
Wow, an apartment on the Southside with window treatments. Now that is Ironic!
Is it true that PO M.J. was a sniper for CPD when it was HBT? He is now on the Marine Unit and he can talk a good game.
"Sorry you argue with definitions...cops went home safe. If you can't see the good in that, you're in the wrong line of work...your biggest failing [is] you can't see the us v them mentality"
-SCC
This isn't about your "definitions" which, in any event, are utterly irrelevent. What made your post so inappropriate was its overall tone and clear implication that the death of the hostage was no big deal. Granted, you noted in passing that the woman's death was a "tragedy" but then you blithly continued patting yourself on the back with inane "look on the bright side" plattitudes.
US VS. Them
"Them" who? The 90% of the public who have committed no crime and look to us to serve and protect them from those who do? Put down your comic books!
I don't make such easy assumptions about the public I serve. You foolishly conflate the public with the criminals amoung them--I don't. If that makes me a "failure" then I didn't know failing felt so good.
to "the view":
thank you very much for your praise. i was there from begining to end, with the exception of a about an hour nap i got inside a vacant apartment. all us SWAT guys wanted nothing more than to go in and save the hostage. even the first SORT team that arrived within minutes successfully evacuated the other tenants in the building and the 003 dist p.o.'s. then they did everything they could to get in and take the bad guy out. it wasnt possible. its typical of this dept for all the "monday morning quarterbacks" to have their say. but 3/4 of them probably have no tactical/SWAT experience. let alone how would they of handled it? make entry and the nutjob kills the hostage anyway? then we would be bad mouthed for going in too soon by all these "experts". please i extend this offer. any suggestions please let us know. there will be other hostage jobs in the future. so come to SOS, and take the firearms and physical fitness test to get on SWAT, and make the difference. until then please refrain from making your "expert" opinion on a topic you know nothing about and werent even on the scene to know what really happened. god bless the victim and her family. sorry we couldnt do more for her. and thank god no p.o.s were hurt.
I hear the plan next for SWAt is to give them all "Russ Ewing" masks.
Everybody will surrender!!!
P.S. Am I dating myself!?
What made your post so inappropriate was its overall tone and clear implication that the death of the hostage was no big deal.
We defy you to point out where we said anything along the lines of it wasn't a big deal. And you must be Carnac the fucking Magnificient if you can interpret inflection, tone or meaning from a bunch of words typed on a computer screen.
Granted, you noted in passing that the woman's death was a "tragedy" but then you blithly continued patting yourself on the back with inane "look on the bright side" plattitudes.
Gee, thanks for pointing out we noted it was a tragedy. And what side should we look at? "Gee, if only a copper had died doing something stupid and in violation of all existing HBT/SWAT protocol, we could feel better about the hostage dying." It was a lose-lose situation. Learn from it. Move on. We can "woulda, coulda, shoulda" all day long and it won't change the fact that this ended in a less than perfect manner (i.e., as good as it was going to get). If that's callous, we aren't losing sleep over it. And just so you know, you've inspired a new essay we'll be posting in the near future.
Lets get something straight; the Team is SWAT, the job is HBT. .....Starks kept saying "our Hostage n' Barricade team" = no such animal Starks ! Read the order on your desk ! It's been sittin there for over a year.
For instance: The S.W.A.T. team responded to an H. or B. or T. incident.
"...So come on whats the solution???????..."
Using grappling hooks and ropes and swinging in from the rooftop!!
That's the way that REAL Swat Teams do it!!!
Anonymous said...
Great, SWAT follows the FBI playbook. Is that the same playbook they all followed when they left CPD Det Joe Airhart laying on the floor for 1.5 hours
Ditto
Anonymous said...
To all of those who like to criticize with out knowing what you are talking about I will give you the facts. If a hostage taker is not actively hurting the hostage you can not make an assault. If you do and the hostage taker hurts the hostage the police are the ones held civilly liable.
-------------
So, untill the guy phyisically starts shooting bullets into a persons skull, **NO** forced entry is to be made???
Let's look at that crazy Use of Force Model. "Subject's actions: actions will likely cause death or serious physical injury"...follow the arrow...."Officer's reaction: Firearms and Other Lethal Force."
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Is the Supreme Ct ok with that?
is there a new G.O. on SWAT/HBT cits?
No wonder SWAT did nothing, they were all reading the blog and typing great things about themselves. How do you type and stroke your huge members at the same time? Teamwork?
Enough of this shit! This was a no win situation from jump. I have tactical experience in entering buildings (albeit military...a different set of rules). How many of us have had to boot a door? How about a steel door between you and your offender, maybe a 2x4. Heavy appliances, furniture wedged in place, I didn't see to many coppers on that scene with the ability to go through walls like a ghost. You know, it's this fucking petty shit right here that keeps us under, loses backing from the FOP, and generally makes us look like assholes. Instead of motherfucking each other, first and foremost, THANK GOD NONE OF OUR GUYS GOT HIT! Secondly, yes it is tragic that the female had to die, but if this guy didn't want to budge, how was it supposed to happen. You guys in SWAT and SOS, you did what you could, you did your best, that was all that could be expected.....GOOD JOB. My brothers in 003, likewise, a tough job, I'm glad you're all safe. The rest of you coulda, shoulda, wouldas, PISS OFF, probably all work in 19 anyway.
003 District Copper
hey 11/25/2006 09:47:00 AM
that F-1 is newly promoted a/2 deputy chief tina skahill no further comment needed
Who cares...no CPD PO's hurt/killed. Thats the only important thing here.
How nice of you to invite me to apply for SOS\SWAT. Easy for you to say, you have a phone call. I don’t have a fucking chance in hell, so it’s all yours.
This department SUCKS!!
The recruitment poster makes so many promises. It tells how you can get on this job and do just about anything you want with hard work. BULLSHIT.
I should have never have come on this job. Im stuck here like a bad nightmare.
All you merit and phone call pukes make me sick.
As a former HBT member, I can tell you, that with a beautiful family waiting for me at home, I personally was never in a rush to enter a scene. I have way to much to live for to be a "hero" and not go home for some piece of shit. I'm sure all the macho men out there bad rapping SWAT have never been in their predicament before. It's way different than responding to an in-progress or on-view incident where we all will take action. Once you arrive as an HBT or SWAT member you must remember the person inside has had time on their side and is at a tactical advantage (remember Waco?) live fire or booby traps are just a couple of scenarios you have to deal with. So, in closing, all SWAT,HBT members and P.O.'s, remember the most important thing is going home to your family at the end of the incident.
Hey Phat Phil, Dana Starks ans Tina Skahill. Does your appearance command respect?
That was the FBI's scene, not CPD's. You want to criticise the FBI, knock your socks off. But CPD HBT had to be ordereed to stand down when they wanted to storm the building to get Joe out. Sgt. H.A.S. almost had to be physically restrained from going in. That was an FBI fuckup. This scene was run by the book.
11/25/2006 05:13:16 PM
Shut the fuck up you pussy! SWAT did fine the other day but don't try for a minute to portray the actions of anyone at the scene of the Joe Airhart shooting as anything but pathetic. I don't hold the HBT at that scene responsible but they certainly were not anything approaching proud police officers. Terry HILLARD and the FBI agents should have been charged with official misconduct for leaving Joe there to die at the hands of that puke.
It would have taken a group of officers with the balls to disobey an order to go in there and rescue Joe. No one had them so just shut the fuck up about how you were biting at the bit to go in there.
So far there are about 12 different posts from people claiming to be SWAT and been at the scene. Exactly how many of you were there? As for the boat guy who was a sniper, who exactly has he sniped? Killing paper targets doesn't exactly make you a bad mutha. Same for the rest of those goofs who spend all their time talking shit and now are whining because their peers have called them out on a blog. Call your clout, maybe he can scold us all.
That was the FBI's scene, not CPD's. You want to criticise the FBI, knock your socks off. But CPD HBT had to be ordereed to stand down when they wanted to storm the building to get Joe out. Sgt. H.A.S. almost had to be physically restrained from going in. That was an FBI fuckup. This scene was run by the book.
11/25/2006 05:13:16 PM
Shut the fuck up you pussy! SWAT did fine the other day but don't try for a minute to portray the actions of anyone at the scene of the Joe Airhart shooting as anything but pathetic. I don't hold the HBT at that scene responsible but they certainly were not anything approaching proud police officers. Terry HILLARD and the FBI agents should have been charged with official misconduct for leaving Joe there to die at the hands of that puke.
It would have taken a group of officers with the balls to disobey an order to go in there and rescue Joe. No one had them so just shut the fuck up about how you were biting at the bit to go in there.
11/26/2006 11:43:46 AM
This guy is right. Hillard should have been fired after this incident and all of our officers pulled from Federal task forces until the FBI agents that turned tail and ran were held accountable for their actions. The Airhart family is too much of a class act to have made a stink.
Now, lets say you disobeyed a direct order and go in to rescue the fallen officer who is bleeding to death. Even if he ends up getting shot a second time, I don't see the Police Board or anyone else trying to fire you. You were disobeying an unethical order to leave your fellow officer at the hands of a criminal to bleed to death.
I have faith that those who chose not to act, Hillard and the FBI agents, will be judged by Him and the judgement will be harsh.
FROM ANOTHER FORMER H.B.T. OFFICER..15YRS OF BEING ON H.B.T.THEY DID A GREAT JOB,ALL THE OFFICERS WENT HOME TO THEIR FAMILY AND LOVE ONES...LET THE CITY TAKE THE HIT FOR THE LAW SUIT. THEY HAVE DEEP POCKETS,,IF ONE OF MY FELLOW POLICE OFFICERS HAD GOTTEN KILLED, I WOULD HAVE HATED THIS CITY AND EVEYONE (POLICE)WOULD HAVE BEEN YELLING,,WHY DID YOU NOT WAIT HIM OUT,,HE IS ONLY A SHIT HEAD,LET HIM KILL HIMSELF..GOD THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN P.O.XXXX KILLED,,SO AS YOU SEE..THEY DID DO A GREAT JOB..I/F FOREVER.
If there was EVER a situation in which we should have gone in it was the Airhart situation. They left him there to die. I don't care WHOSE scene it was, they left him there to die. There's a lot of people that should be hanging there head in shame over that one. We KNEW that he was in there bleeding to death and we did nothing.If your gonna use the excuse that the woman wasn't hurt as a reason for not going in on this job, then you can't say the same thing about the Airhart situation. He was dieing and we STILL didn't do anything. Fuck the FBI but shame on us! One of our guys in our City!
Really, shades on the windows???
As noted before...THAT is the major story in this whole situation.
WOW
I feel that anyone complaining about the SWAT team, are just not good enough to be on SWAT. SWAT is a way of life and for most of the patrol and department for that matter do not measure up. Yes you need a call to get to SOS, SO BE IT! If you dont have one SHUT UP and GET ONE. Quit your crying about how swat should done that or done this we did the job. If you dont like it get a call come to SOS and try out for SWAT if have have the stomach.
The answer is, and I know this for a fact: M.J., now at the marine unit, was never on HBT so therefore he was not a sniper. Take it as gospel.
funny how so many of you believe anything on the southside of chicago is the ghetto. well, i live in that same southshore neighborhood and its been good to me. and i have window treatments too. your racism just comes shining through.
Best quote of the thread
"SWAT is a way of life"
HA! HA! Someone's been watching Dallas SWAT on A&E. Is it out on box set yet? Christmas is coming and maybe C.S. could spend some of his hard earned cash to buy you all some gifts.
LOL, the swat is a way of life comment was great! it's a job guys, get over yourselves.....
LOL, the swat is a way of life comment was great! it's a job guys, get over yourselves.....
You would lol here, but you would have your ass wiped up all over homan. Do not ever think of fucking with the SWAT team. It is a wat of life. When we are not training we are doing.
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