Problem #8 - Outgunned
Eighth in a series of writings about some problems we see facing the Department.
By request of our readers.
For a very long time, CPD was stuck on revolvers. The revolver is a reliable weapon. It almost never jams. Minimal maintenance keeps it working. It is simple to operate. Automatics are higher maintenance weapons but with higher capacities. Also, the training required to become more proficient in it's use is a bit more, but as the criminals got better guns, it only made sense to try to keep up. At least to the Department.
The City however, seems to have fought us at every step. To effectively "neutralize" a target, you need to get as much lead on target accurately in the shortest amount of time possible. Quick and accurate shooting would seem to lean toward a "Double-Single" weapon. So why are we saddled with DAO pistols that lead to wildly inaccurate shooting?
Or the notoriously underpowered ammunition authorized for years? The ammo is built to expand and tear great gaping holes in bodies to "neutralize" threats. So why are we stuck with sub-sonic crap that doesn't even open as designed? We can tick off a dozen stories where there were clean wounds through and through because rounds didn't open at low speeds.
Or even having heavy weapons on the streets. We know there are heavy weapons available (SWAT or Detective Areas), but those are far away most of the time - sometimes as much as 20 or 30 minutes and that's on a GOOD day. When the shit hits the fan, you need those weapons seconds away - certainly no more than 3 or 4 minutes - to effectively make a difference. All the commentators in the past few threads saying that there ought to be heavy weapons in a number of squad cars aren't suggesting anything new. But the City is never going to allow us to buy our own weapons or even spend the money on training because everything they do is looked at in terms of liability - and it's cheaper to bury a cop than pay out to an innocent bystander.
Personally, we are of the opinion that every single Sergeant's vehicle ought to be equipped with a gunsafe (instead of baby car seats) and there ought to be a minimum of two shotguns and two rifles in that safe. Every single watch should have a dozen people trained and proficient on these weapons - and we don't mean the Tact/Gang teams - Beat guys and gals along with the Sergeants. We were lucky enough to be a part of one of those SVIP drills a while back. In the BEST circumstances, we figured it was 20 minutes for a heavy weapon vehicle to get to the scene. The Beat Officer was on scene in under 3 minutes and his first assist car right after (unless it's a high school with a fixed post inside) - and all they've got are 9mm or .45's? Against god knows what?
We need long guns and we need training. And it's too bad it's going to take a couple funerals to even START this Department taking it seriously.
By request of our readers.
For a very long time, CPD was stuck on revolvers. The revolver is a reliable weapon. It almost never jams. Minimal maintenance keeps it working. It is simple to operate. Automatics are higher maintenance weapons but with higher capacities. Also, the training required to become more proficient in it's use is a bit more, but as the criminals got better guns, it only made sense to try to keep up. At least to the Department.
The City however, seems to have fought us at every step. To effectively "neutralize" a target, you need to get as much lead on target accurately in the shortest amount of time possible. Quick and accurate shooting would seem to lean toward a "Double-Single" weapon. So why are we saddled with DAO pistols that lead to wildly inaccurate shooting?
Or the notoriously underpowered ammunition authorized for years? The ammo is built to expand and tear great gaping holes in bodies to "neutralize" threats. So why are we stuck with sub-sonic crap that doesn't even open as designed? We can tick off a dozen stories where there were clean wounds through and through because rounds didn't open at low speeds.
Or even having heavy weapons on the streets. We know there are heavy weapons available (SWAT or Detective Areas), but those are far away most of the time - sometimes as much as 20 or 30 minutes and that's on a GOOD day. When the shit hits the fan, you need those weapons seconds away - certainly no more than 3 or 4 minutes - to effectively make a difference. All the commentators in the past few threads saying that there ought to be heavy weapons in a number of squad cars aren't suggesting anything new. But the City is never going to allow us to buy our own weapons or even spend the money on training because everything they do is looked at in terms of liability - and it's cheaper to bury a cop than pay out to an innocent bystander.
Personally, we are of the opinion that every single Sergeant's vehicle ought to be equipped with a gunsafe (instead of baby car seats) and there ought to be a minimum of two shotguns and two rifles in that safe. Every single watch should have a dozen people trained and proficient on these weapons - and we don't mean the Tact/Gang teams - Beat guys and gals along with the Sergeants. We were lucky enough to be a part of one of those SVIP drills a while back. In the BEST circumstances, we figured it was 20 minutes for a heavy weapon vehicle to get to the scene. The Beat Officer was on scene in under 3 minutes and his first assist car right after (unless it's a high school with a fixed post inside) - and all they've got are 9mm or .45's? Against god knows what?
We need long guns and we need training. And it's too bad it's going to take a couple funerals to even START this Department taking it seriously.
posted by SCC at 12:03 AM
87 Comments:
When we had the old High Risk Entry Team, we shot all the time.
Inside, outside, out at the Marseilles outdoor pop up target range, and most of us shot pretty well. Miss those old days, getting the shooting skills polished. When the team went upstairs (to the now INFAMOUS SOS), most of us opted to stay in Narcotics. Little did we know what a wise decision that would be!
I remember a few years back when an officer was shot and killed on the 2500 block of north Avers while serving a warrant (can't remember his name). There was a raging gun battle that lasted between 15 & 20 minutes. even the street deputy arrived on the scene while the shots were still ringing out. Guess what??? The heavy weapons (SORT) car was nowhere to be found.
Kurt Daichendt, then a 025th District watch guy, decided to run into the apartment and confront the killer himself. Placing himself in harms way, he managed to kill the jagoff and end the incident.
You would think that after this incident the Department would have supplied the districts with at least ONE rifle to be available on the street at all times. Instead they added another SORT car and gave the Detective Division shotguns for each area. How stupid is that???
God help us if a School Violent Incident Plan ever actually happens. Can you imagine being in a diamond formation walking down one of the long hallways at Steinmetz High School (200ft). A shooter with a rifle would be able to effectively take out all four officers and the sergeant before they could even get a shot off in his direction. But, as has already been stated, it's cheaper to bury a cop than it is to pay out on a lawsuit.
Amen...
If I buy it, can demonstrate that I can take it apart, put it back together, clean it, and qualify with it, then I should be able to carry it. Whatever it may be. As long as it is from a reputable company, such as sig, glock, smith, walsh construction, etc, I should be able to carry it, be it a shotgun or a .22. Its MY life, it should be MY choice of gun.
Just a thought, that to many of us WOULD MAKE SENSE. Since we are out gunned, I think the dept. should open up training with the M4's to anyone who wants to and meets the requirements, in every district. After the training one beat car on every watch(would like to see more than one)would be manned with an M4 trained officer for the tour. We know that there would probably be a small pool of officers on each watch that would like to be trained, but hopefully enough that with RDO's and furloughs there will always be at least one trained officer with an M4 every tour. All we have heard on the west side from the bosses is, "be carefull, the gangbangers are killing each other with AK-47's and other high powered weapons." What would have happened if a beat car stopped the gangbangers the other day not knowing that they were in route to do a hit with the AK-47? A few weeks ago they were asking us if we wanted to sign up for shotgun training. Why? For What? We can never carry one, so why would they ask? I remember many years ago in the academy they took us to Harvey to shoot the shotguns and that was the last time I've held a dept. shotgun. The only time I will ever hold a shotgun is when I go hunting with my own shotgun. What a joke!
The February 28, 1997 robbery of the Bank of America in North Hollywood was THE defining moment. The LAPD was at an overwhelming disadvantage in firepower.
You would think that in hindsight, the City of Chicago would be prepared.
But nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Last night the channel 5 news showed a Chicago firefighter suing Finnegan and some of his partners. If there is a settlement or judgement are we entitled to monies becuse of thr "me too" clause?
lThe city is doing a diservice to its citizens, and THERE IS liability that we are below the norm in lethal force.
dont we have enough militarily trained personnel in all ranks, units, districts, that we can have a significant number of truly trained profesionals manning the thin blue line from the savages and the rest of us.
Hey, you guys sound like a bunch of little crybaby schoolgirls. Stop worrying about what gun,round or who will carry what. Worry about something more important like your next CAPS meeting or making sure that your local alderman gets what he wants so he can be re-elected. Now go away and handle your next paper job.
You're preaching to the chior SCC. But we both know the powers that be will NEVER allow us to be that well armed. It would take a massacre like the one the FBI suffered during a shootout in Miami many years ago. What happened in Los Angeles during that bank robbery was a wake up call for ALL major meto departments. I'm suprised we haven't had some nut(s) try to duplicate that feat. From what I can tell,those OCD officers were fortunate enough to "get the drop" on those mopes. If the one with the AK 47 had been able to pull the trigger,it might have been a different outcome.
The officer who died on Avers was Donald Marquez. You have forgotten much. Tony Wojcik killed the guy and Roger Forte ran through the gunfire to pull Marquez to safety. He didn't know that Marquez had been mortally wounded. The other guys including Kurt did shoot at the offender and he returned fire at them.
I went through the new shotgun training program 2 months ago got my card but then again why? we cannot carry it. We could run back to a district then maybe be issued a dirty gun and clean it quick and then use it? Hell we cannot even carry a taser we have to wait for a SGT if he/she is qualified! Said many times before the city could careless about anyone of usit is all about daley. Hey maybe we could find another of daleys friends then he would get a juicy contract and then we would have weapons!
I agree with 11/02/2006 12:12:10 AM
The copper's name was Donnie Marquez and he was with the Corporation Counsel's office. Donnie and his partner were out gunned that day. I remember it well!!!
Hey: 11/02/2006 02:39:55 AM
Sounds like Forest Gump to me. "Gump!!! why did you dissemble your rifile so fast"?
Because you told me to drill SGT!
LOL
Do you really think that the city of Chicago is going to turn loose a bunch of self glorified ninnnies on the streets with high powered weapons. Don't think so. When will you people every get it.....You are expendible, fodder
burying a cop shot in the line of duty, is taken from the spare change tray at city hall. Burying some citizen killed by a cop with a high powered weapon, is a legislative amount of money or an instant LOTTO to many. it would be more prudent if you guys start keeping a better eye on your constantly dwindling pension, one day after 20 years of work, your going to wake up without a dime for all of your work and time that you put in........
I CAN'T WAIT TO MOVE OUT OF THIS SHITHOLE OF A CITY...LIVING IN A CITY RUN BY PUSSIES SUCKS!
Anyone know any truth to this.....I heard, again mind you, that the Glock was to be approved by 01 Jan and that there was an order being drawn up as we speak. Also that .40 was going to be allowed as well.....I know we've all heard this before, but I heard this from a guy at the range who usually has pretty good info....Anyone know more???
There was a time several years ago that the gangbangers were fighting between the CHA highrises. CHA police were nowhere to be found and very often the beat cars would show up and they bangers were still shooting because they knew we still had to get upstairs to them. It takes a long time to run up 16 flights of stairs into a gunfight.
What was really bad was the bad guys whould just shoot between the buildings at each others apartments. We were recovering very high power rifles -- not just .223 or .308 this was the stuff that is used in Africa for the really big animals.
When you went into the apartments there were holes in the walls like Beruit.....
Anything going through walls like that will go through a vest like target paper.
Even when we recovered the weapons noone cared.
Be careful boys and girls let's not have any extra funerals. I hate when the the pipes play dirges.
Question for everyone. What if I happened to own an M4 and had it with me at work and no one every knew. Then one day and icident like this happened or a bank robbery with high powered weapons occurreed with no swat or sort team in sight.
I use my personal weapon and happen to save numerous people from being killed. what would this department do?
If they went on to give a 6 month suspension or seperation how could they justify it in the media?
Dol you think the officeres in the LA incident who went to local gun shops for weapons to match the robbers got hit with time or violations?
new breeds threatened to follow an officer home (any officer no names) and shoot him in retaliation for the shooting in humboldt park the other day.....so change your routes going home, and pay attention to suspicious vehicles, bangers, anybody that raises your awareness....keep your weapon on you...stay safe
The department shotguns are not maintained, some have rust build up, and never oiled. Let's get with the Fucking times here. We should have semi-annual qualification both with our duty weapon and shotgun. Oh yeah... I almost forgot, we work for a department that's pro-active in law enforcement. (BullSh*t) Have the best equipment (BullSh*t)They Just give the minimum to get by. There is nothing more sad than a police ofc. funeral.
Daley's CPD detail has Heckler & Koch MP5 firepower.
He regards us as mere cannon fodder. We should have had immediate access to SMGs and shotguns over a decade ago.
Most major police agencies and the FBI have selected the GLOCK as the standard duty weapon, preferably in calibers .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
On a visit to the NYPD Throgs Neck range in the Bronx, range personnel and other NYPD dismissed the 9mm as woefully inadequate.
Semi-automatics: When the CPD finally came into the 20th century and authorized semi-automatic pistols they immediately hobbled the officer who had them by ordering that you COULD NOT HAVE A CHAMBERED ROUND! These same fools are still makeing the rules.
Come on people. After what has recently happened at SOS and the two on the south side do you really think that anyone at headquarters would trust any of us with a heavy weapon. They don't trust us with anything now and probably rightly so. Headquarters looks at street cops as cowboys and if you were just to read the newspapers you would probably agree with that assesment. We are our own worst enemies. Why do you think it took so long to go to semi automatics. They do not want us opening up on some asshole and empting a 30 rnd magazine into his car. And do not forget that 50% of all police shot are shot with either their own or their partners weapon. Would it be nice if we had big guns? Sure it would but lets not worry about something that won't happen and make the best out of what we can work with.
I used to go and fire the shotguns as often as possible, which was RARELY! I stopped going when I observed at a training session that the dummy shotgun rounds were all falling apart and BB's were
coming out of them and jamming the guns. When I pointed this out to the Range Instructor, he said that's all this cheap F'in Department will give us.
This training costs money.....money the mayor can't give to one of his cousin's companies. We don't need weapons and training, we need Segways and Blackberrys!
We'll get long guns, after we get our Blackberry. Face it, the Mayor who was against retired cops carrying guns, is going to let P.O.'s have ar-15s, Please. We are in this whirlwind of PC and liberial bullshit and will never see shotguns in the cars or ar-15s, m14s, m16s or a 30-30 with a scope centered for 200 yrd shot.
Sorry everybody, we are on our own and I hope we back each other up out there and when we're off-duty. So some one will think your trying to play super cop, but when the shit hits the fan, super cop will be the best thing that had ever happened to you. we owe it to each other and our families, don't get caught off guard.
Would it contribute to Officer Safety if many of the morons we see on this blog were armed with
assault rifles or shotguns? I think not! Also, to announce that certain cars or certain ranks have
such guns is to invite theft of those vehicles. You would be literally arming the enemy.
What should be done is a careful selection and training of certain volunteer P.O.'s from each Watch,
putting one or two rifles/shotguns
on the street in each District at all times, at least on a test basis. Let's face it: the number of incidents in which such weapons are actually needed is rare. But it would be nice to know that when the Hot Call is dispatched, that a
qualified shooter is heading that way, just in case.
Rumor has it...SOS Sarge caught lying to Grand Jury and begs for a deal!
Detectives list out today after 1500 hrs.
Why would the city even consider this foolish idea, Daley already has his 6-10 body guards around him at all times to keep him safe. Maybe if one of those 7.62's flew his way he might reconsider. Naw, he would just sue the gun manufacturer, that'll teach those a$$bags on the street.
We don't need any heavy weapons cars. Remember, assault weapons are already banned in the city.
(p.s. sarcastic remark)
DICKS LIST IS OUT 49 but we need 300. What the F%$K?
Off topic...Did anyone hear about a Detective list being released? I know someone who just received a call.
In addition to pct. detective squads, the NYPD's elite EMERGENCY SERVICE UNIT (ESU) has a dozen trucks available 24/7 for the five boroughs. They've got almost enough firepower for a firefight in El Anbar province.
(You may remember that fourteen of the 23 NYPD MOS killed in 9/11 were assigned to ESU.)
12:12
I remember that shoot-out well, but it lasted less then 10 minutes (not that it matters).
I also remember the bosses (jimmy mauer et.al.) speaking to us at roll call the next day, and screaming at the bosses as to why we don't have shotguns available on the street.
We also made it known that the offender (a 77 year old man) was hit 8 times center mass (14 total hits), was still alive when he got to the hospital, possibly due to this shitty sub-sonic ammo, that didn't expand in that asshole.
Well, they finally fixed the ammo problem....how many years, how many shot p/o's later.
We won't see shotguns until there are riots. We will never see M4's.
We could also use flash bangs in the district cars.
On a side note, It really sucks that we are trained on the 870, we can qualify with the 870, but we can't register an 870 as a duty weapon. I would rather leave mine in "michigan" then have to register it every year.
The CPD is totally reactive, no Proactive. That is why we will never see anything larger that a 9mm in a beat car. Unless its an oldtimer with a .45 and that is even underpowered if you stay in accordance with CPD policy and proceedure.
BTW I took a day for having good ammo. Saw a M/1 take a round of our 9mm in his stay-puff marshmallow man coatand it didnt even pierce it. WTF is up with that?
This city will not even buy their officers the turtle gear. But order new officers to buy that gear. Do you really expect them to allow us to carry anything other then a 9mm or 45? Do you know how hard it is for the city knowing that we carry guns in the first place.
*************************************** NOVEMBER 5th is the day we slow down!!!!!!!!!!! Only arrest those who truely need to go to jail and ticket those who truely need a ticket. If we don't do this then we have no power. The city will continue to abuse us unless we show unity. This will not get you fired !!!! No one should speak of it, just do it!!!!
We're dealing with a REACTIONARY department. From scandals, manpower shortages, being outgunned or any of the concerns SCC has brought to the surface; all common sense concerns of the working police. Common sense should prevail, but we know better from what we have seen and lived through.
This department does not care about you. It gives you a paycheck twice a month and some good stories. Short of that you are on your own.
Don't be the first one through the door unless it's one of us in harms way & be careful.
SCC, you bring up a lot of valid points but I think the Asshat Mayor, Alder-asshat-creatures and the ilk all think of us as irresponsible peons. If you think about it, some of us have done things in the past that tarnish our image. You however, are right. If the city were to ever face a New Orleans type disaster, i'm going to run out to the burbs and pick up my AR-15.
You would think that in hindsight, the City of Chicago would be prepared.
But nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
5:24 AM
Dude, you are so right on the money! It WILL happen again. Coppers will probably get hurt or (God forbid) killed and then this arm pit of a city will try and make it look like it was a CPD snafu. In reality our glorious demi-god of a mayor (sarcasm for you leftists)doesn't want to upset the liberal voting segment of the population by having a "mean" looking police department. Afterall, nothing provides a better photo op than a good ole police funeral.
FUCK YOU MAYOR! WE WANT A FIGHTING CHANCE! WE DESERVE A FIGHTING CHANCE. Bet you wouldn't let JR. go over to Iraq with a 9mm and shit ammo would you?
49 Dets made it today!! Congrats
Was riding in Hammond IN. the other day. Readily visible on the cage of the average squad car was an AR15/M16.
The City needs to get some testicular fortitude and give you guys all the weaponry you need.
I've said it for years that there should be a least 8 officers per watch per district that are qualified with the shotgun. Sorry tac...but you guys are stuck outside of your district more than you want to be.
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH WHAT I HAVE READ HERE. YOU HAVE TO PICK THE CORRECT WEAPON FOR THE JOB. WE AS DEPARTMENT ARE BEHIND THE REST OF THE WORLD. HAVING SAID THAT I DO NOT FEEL WE CAN POINT THE FINGER AT THE SUPT. HE CAN ONLY GO ON WHAT THE LITTLE MAN WILL ALLOW HIM TO DO. IN THIS DAY AND AGE OF TERROR I STRONGLY FEEL WE NEED MORE OFFICERS TRAINED IN HEAVY WEAPONS AND HAVE THOSE WEAPONS AVAILABLE. SOS OR SWAT AS IT IS CALLED HAS A TIME AND PLACE NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM WHAT THEY ARE DOING WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THE STIUATION IF IT KICKS OFF THEN AND NOT WAIT, FOR SOS OR SWAT. I AM SURE THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT ONCE THEY GOT THERE BUT BY THEN IT IS OVER. LOOK AT THE SHOOTING LAST MONDAY THE SHIT HEADS THAT WHERE KILLED WERE ARMED TO THE 9'S THEY HAD HEAVEY WEAPONS! I AM GLAD THAT FOR ONCE THE BOSS'S MADE THE CALL TO BRING OUT WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS PROPER FIRE POWER. IN CLOSING WE MUST KEEP IN MIND THAT IT IS NOT THE GUN THAT WILL GET THE JOB DONE IT IS THE OFFICERS TRAINING, COMMITMENT AND FIGHT THAT WINS.
Here's a possible answer- stow an automatic weapon that shoots the same round in your service pistol... now, when the shit hits the fan just make sure you have enough empty pistol magazines to have held the number of empty shell casings on the ground/slugs in your bad guy's corpse. Hell, it's not your fault you're quick with the tactical reloads! Of course, any video of your escapades will force you to fess up- but better judged by the roundtable than carried in a coffin
You don't need bigger guns. You need better verbal skills. Signed a people person.
Off topic - John Fitzgerald passed away. He was a member of the FOP Board of Dirs. He made great contributions to the Chicago Police Department and the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police. God Bless him and his family.
Shawn M. Hallinan
I wouldn't expect M4s anytime soon - or maybe ever.
But on the upside, looks like there is a new G.O. due out early next year that may take a giant leap into solving some of the handgun problems out there. New choices of operating system and manufacturer (yes, the G word), possibly even new calibers (can you say .40?) and options (weapon-mounted lights?).
It's supposedly making the rounds through legal and the chain of command, and may be out as early as January.
Between this new G.O., the 100 rounds of ammo for training, and the updated duty ammunition order from early this year, it looks like we must have a shooter loose in the brass at 35th St. Whoever it is - thank you, good job and keep the good news coming...
You got it right 100% even after a copper or coppers are killed with a AK-47 or AR 15 "which are banned in Chicago by the way" they still won't ever allow us to have them. Thank your liberal Democratic politicians. I early voted today and on the ballot they had a question which stated "for the protection of children etc etc would you support the banning in Illinois of assault weapons and 50 cal rifles? Do you really think that will have any effect on the gang bangers? That is the same liberal majority that would rather see you killed in the line of duty than have those dangerous evil weapons. What a joke.
it's sad, very sad that the powers that be dont give a damn about its own officers. some depts (suburban and big city across the country) train and train with duty weapons and shotguns. it doesnt matter if you're a clout-baby assigned to swat or whatever. every officer has equal firearms training. but of course not in this 'fine' city. they care more about the rights of pookie and jose than the safety of the officers and the good citizens. firearm training shouldnt stop in the academy or your 1 or 2 times qualifying on an easy course
Responding to 5:08, only in certain districts would you get a small volunteer pool. The younger staffed districts (010/011/015/002/007/025 etc) guys would be fighting for the chance to man that car. Unfortunatly as the recent sos shit has shown the best coppers, or at least very productive ones aren't the brightest. I can think of at least 10 on my watch that i wouldn't want near a rifle simply because they would probably lose it chasing a three rock case. that and most newer police can't hit the side of a barn let alone an offender with the pistol they were trained with. still a good idea that needs to be refined. possibly that car not taking radio jobs or making bullshit dope arrests that tour, just being there for backup, then rotate the car to those who were trained...
Too tired to type and expound on on the subbject but SCC you pretty much covered all my thoughts.
NOW if we can just make it happen....
Just look at the 10,000 guns we recover each year. Put them on a table and compare them to what we wear on our side. Pitiful to say the least. Back in the early 70's, we could carry anything we wanted, and did. I worked with a guy who carried an M-16 wrapped up in a police raincoat. We had less problems with people. Never a battery on a Police Officer.
Actually, that was the reason that former ADS Shaver and a range officer got the ball rolling to adopt the 124 gr JHP+P for the 9mm. Our current official 9mm round. A MUCH better round than the sub sonic crap that the dept originally adopted.
Your call for putting long guns in beat cars is going to fall on deaf ears. This incident on Kedzie and Augusta was handled by coppers w/o the aid of rifles or shotguns. What does that tell the City. The City will not train officers, because this will be costly with officers off the street, range time, range officers time, and it is a lenghty process to become efficient with the weapon. Weapon maintenence is another issue. This officer must maintain this weapon in excellent working condition and properly break it down and clean it regularly. Also there would have to be a yearly qualification implemented to ensure these selected officers are maintaining proficiency on the weapon. And to remain proficient you have to train and shoot the weapon regularly. This along with the cost of ammunition for the .223 caliber M4 is another reason this will not happen anytime soon. The set up is costly for each vehicle containing long guns to put a locking compartment in the trunk of each vehicle. I'm sure the City will not lock the weapons in the drivers compartment for the concern of theft. If your talking 1 car per district, that car better be up and available at all times to be of any assistance in an expeditious manner. There is a great responsibility for the officer carrying a rifle in his vehicle. I worked the SORT car for years and know first hand this responsibility. After September 11th and the start of the war in Iraq, it took the months to increase the number of SORT cars from 3 to 6. The City's main stumbling block was the cost issue of putting the necessary cars together with the proper equipment. I'm just giving an overview of the likelyhood of putting long guns in 1 car in each district and it looks like a longshot. I'm on your side and believe it would be a very good idea but I think we may have a better chance getting the residence rule lifted than this ever coming to fruition. Back each other up and make sure everyone goes home to their families at the end of the tour.
Are you high of just goofy? Not handled with rifles or shotguns?
They had bernelli automatic shotguns and M-4 rifles. The spent brass was all over the street and blowing down toward Kedzie with the wind.
grow up
Hey SCC, go back to working on the sheets! How often does something like this happen? How about this was the first time. And the SWAT team handled it. We don't need machine guns in beat cars. Gun nut.
Anonymous said...
You don't need bigger guns. You need better verbal skills. Signed a people person.
7:32 PM
BACK SIR, you are a stroke. Use gerbal voodoo when some jagoff is pointing a gun at you we'll see how well you look in a coffin!!!!
Signed go fuck yourself
the cost of putting sort cars together......
what about all that homeland security money wasted on cameras.
you are an idiot !
Sorry to bust your Wojick worshiping bubble, but it was Daichendt who actually ran in the apartment and killed the guy in the Marquez incident.
Don't get me wrong, Wojick is a great cop who's not afraid to shot a deserving individual, but in this case the kill goes rightfully to Kirt Diachendt.
Dearest DUMBFUCKS...you can have the biggest and best gun ever made, but if you are not paying attention to your enviroment, surroundings, or training, you're still DEAD !! ONLY DEAD with a bigger gun !!
Response to 11:22:35 Hey asshat you can't even spell, It's Benelli not Bernelli. You must never seen 1 or fired 1 and for that matter know shit about weapons ballonhead. And I doubt very much it was a typo on your part. The previous poster gave us some very good first hand and in depth knowledge regarding the issue at hand (maybe not the incident) and you go and tell them their goofy and to grow up....Please go back to your parkers and let the real police work to guys like the original poster.
New sgt in range at academy pushing things through. Maybe more changes in future.
The city can get surplus weapons from the military.I had an M-14 in Nam that could be switched to fully auto,great knockdown power,it's a little heavy compared to the M-16 so I doubt any females could handle it,but it got the job done.
Is it true that we are getting Blackberries...with no batteries so we don't misuse them?
Shotguns and rifles were used by gang intel officers and the sort car, you obviously know nothing about the situation or the situations we face on the street almost daily it seems. Stay inside where it is safe.
It's a lot cheaper to bury a cop or two a year than to equip, train, and maintain a department with heavy weapons. Thank you King Richard.
Perhaps problem #9??? Terrible training academy... Instructors who mainly don't know much, letting too many knuckleheads pass, even the facility is a dump... Excellence should start at the begining, it should be "hard" to make it thru and therefore a honor to be the police... Just an idea, stay safe out there all.
Off Topic but important! After monitoring my paycheck I noticed many discrepancies and called finance and spoke to director Frank wilson he had answers as to why but a girl i talked to there told me "Many checks are screwed up", Check to be sure your hourly rate is right this guy has no clue about his job!
Very good article.. Can apply to some of our people..
http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/CharlesRemsberg/articles/1186521/
Speaking of Military Surplus weapons, now that the Air Force has retired the F-4 Phantom jets,
CPD should pick up a few on the cheap. There are more than a few sites I would like to see napalmed!
Who can ever forget J. N. calling in air strikes?
why are the swat guys at homan telling anyone who will listen they did all the work and that Gangs only got in the way? What is the real story.
Ya know whats amazing? I hear some posters opine that we will NEVER get long guns in the cars because it's too costly. Yet the City will spend MILLIONS on things like CAPS and Blackberrys.
They were recently sending all the Sgts. (incumbents,not new) down to the porceilan palace for retraining in CAPS. Ya know, important things, like how to run stats, how to make your beat community meeting run smoother, stuff that has absolutely no bearing on our success in the war on crime. Yet they claim that they cannot afford to train or equip the Officers properly on the tools that they need to stay alive or become more effective. And what about the new recruits? How many hours of instruction do they receive in firearms training as opposed to hours spent on CAPS bullshit?
They do not want a Police Dept. that is proactive or actually fights crime. What they want is a Dept. that is gender, sexually, racially and politically correct and will go out and make the public THINK that the Chicago Police Department is committed to solving the crime problems in thier areas. It's all smoke and mirror, all smoke and mirrors. They will spend millions on bullshit that will make the mayor and his band of exempts look good, but not one cent on something that will help the "line Officers" stay alive or actually be the Police.
I used to love this job and I got up out of bed every single day anxious to go to work and lock somebody up or help some innocent civilan victim out. I loved being the Police and all that went with it, good or bad. I was proud to say that I'm a Chicago Police Officer. But now......shit, between the seemingly new scandal every other day, a Mayor that runs this Dept. with an iron fist and refuses to allow the Police to be the Police and a Superintendent that has politicized this Dept more than ANY previous Superintendent has, I'm ready to retire. I'm close but I need a few more years to max out. I just hope I can withstand all of the above and make it.
One more thing. I see all this new guy vs.old guy stuff on this blog. IMHO, we should feel sorry for the new guys. They have no idea what they are getting into nor do they now or will they ever know what it means to be the Police. What do they know. POD missions, DOC missions, seatbelt missions, SOP missions. Revenue, I mean reverse stings on a weekly basis. CAPS bullshit. Thats no reflection on them. It's a reflection on the system created by this mayor and his political hacks that run this department. They have emasculated it and turned it into an entity that is so far removed from being a legitimate Police Department that it's not even funny anymore!
Real story, S.O.S was there and did shoot........Gang Intel were the first to engage shit heads. All in all, the good guys won, that's all that matters. People who were there know the truth of who did what and how it went down...They also know who shot and who didn't shoot (and claimed they did). And if anyone know who I'm talking about know this guys is such a "bullshitter". He's a CPD Detective, when he goes to court he show his U.S. Marshal id so everyone will see it. What a joke!!!!
Here's a possible answer- stow an automatic weapon that shoots the same round in your service pistol... now, when the shit hits the fan just make sure you have enough empty pistol magazines to have held the number of empty shell casings on the ground/slugs in your bad guy's corpse. Hell, it's not your fault you're quick with the tactical reloads! Of course, any video of your escapades will force you to fess up- but better judged by the roundtable than carried in a coffin
11/02/2006 07:09:47 PM
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! MP-5's for everyone.
Let S.O.S tell their war stories, everyone there knows it was a Lt. & Sgt who shot first. Swat was there and did shoot and so did other gang guys........ Swat did not save the day as many might think......
It wasn't swat that shot their own guy!!!
Just remember it is cheaper to bury a policeman than it is to hire more and equip us all with the proper firepower. Your job is to go home the way you came to work and that is all that matters!!!!!!!!
Of course it was a Sgt. and Lt. that shot first. Thats why they are Sgts. and Lts. Leaders. "Follow me men" kind of guys. Guys that go through the door first. You seem surprised. Why?
I'm not surprised that it was a Sgt. and Lt. that shot first at that scene. I'm pretty sure that I trained those two guys when they were new Sgts. One of the first things I tell the new Sgts. that I train is to watch me to get a good idea as to what being a good Sgt. means. Go to as many jobs as you can to show the men that you care about them. ALWAYS be available for them. Don't wait to be called to a job, go there if you think that there is even a remote possibility that you might be needed. Don't take a lunch because your men might need you just as your about to bite down into that burrito. Be proactive and take the time to forumlate plans with your men to attack crime in your District. Put your men in for as many awards as you can. Thats the way I operate as a Sgt. and I wish all the others would follow suit. I do all the above mentioned things during my tour and to be frank, they are some of the reasons I'm considered 025's best Sgt. While some of the other Sgts. may try to emulate me, they may come close but alas, no cigar. You won't see me hiding out all day in some 7-11 as some Sgts.do.
WELL IT WAS SAID I AM GLAD WE WON THIS BATTLE. IT IS TOO BAD THAT SOS AND SWAT IS MAKING EVERY ATTEMPT TO TAKE ALL THE CREDIT. I OVER HEARD A GUY TELL HIS VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE HE IS A SWAT GUY SO I GAVE HIM HIS 5 MINUTES AND THEN COME TO FIND OUT HE WAS NOT EVEN THERE!!!!! RDO OR SOMETHING. THAT IS WRONG I HOPE HE GETS FOUND OUT AND EXPOSED FOR BEING A PUNK. AFTER HEARING THIS SWAT STOCK HAS GONE DOWN IN MY OPINION. IT ONLY TAKES ONE TO FUCK IT UP FOR ALL.
To 2:52:44
You don't understand. I HAVE to go. I've built up a citywide reputation as a hands on Sgt, a leader of men, a hard charger, a Policemens Policeman. If I didn't go I'd be lumped in with all those do nothing, hideout at the local 7-11 type Sgts. Wouldn't want that now would we?
Keep up the good work, Sgt. I feel the same way, as do my men. It's called supervising, and until some of our peers figure it out, we are all this district has. Never forget the men we work for!
They will respect you more for it.
God help us the day some of us worthless, cloutless beat cops put a stop on a car loaded with shitheads armed with HP weapons on the order of 7.62x39, or, 5.56mm. Most of all if defined shitheads actually know what they are doing with them.
I envy those with no experience with such weapons because they cant appreciate just how worthless our chickenshit pistols would be in such a confrontation. Even worse, far worse, would be a North Hollywood type situation, or Miami, with offenders who know both how to shoot and move.
Next time your at roll call take a good look at some of the mutts and Bimbos this Dept. has forced you to work with and then picture such a scenerio.
And you young guys wonder why we older guys dont run headfirst into things? Anyone that wants to play hero for this jagoff city should get their head checked first.
I will add the Miami shootout with the FBI involved offenders which were far more dangerous then the nitwits involved in North Hollywood. The difference being in Miami the FBI had somewhat better training, had a shotgun, and confined the offenders inside an auto, or around it, for the duration of the fight. Including taking out one of the offenders early.
On the downside both offenders in Miami had military experience, one of them having airborne level experience and was armed with a 5.56mm mini-14 weapon. These two were junkyard dogs who were only confined by the tactics of the FBI, limiting their offensive capability.
North Hollywood was a cluster-fuck only limited by the bravery of the lightly armed LAPD POs ,and, the poor tactics of the heavily armed offenders. They didn't move together well, didn't cover for the other well, didn't have much of an escape plan, didn't use their weapons effectively and most of all didn't use proper marksmanship. To me they just seemed to have fun shooting up a street, playing superman with their full autos. Their tactics were plain unsound and still they were able to create havoc against LAPD, a Dept. far more better trained then this nitwit outfit we work for.
Boy I just shudder at the thought of our PC, sensitive, and community Policing orientated big butts in blue going against a heavily armed, motivated, and skilled team armed with weapons that can be bought from any gun show. And imagine these clout heavy Bosses rolling into the scene taking command? It wouldn't even be funny. Most, if not all, have never even been downrange of a HP rifle and would freeze up or run.
The odds get better when chicken brained gang bangers are involved. But if the offenders are combat military trained........or trained and motivated terrorists?????
Well.....I'll be right behind the bosses and their kids when they charge for glory, far behind mind you.
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