Encrypted Radios?
Coppers have been advocating for this for a long time. SWAT has them, but every other communication is out there in the open.
Until recently we're told (via email):
- Have you seen the orders where Supervisors are required to bring a radio with the "EVENT 1" setting programmed in? This is the new P25 encrypted band rolling out in the newer radios. It's something to enable secure communications (finally) while moving the troops to confront antifa and rioters who were always a step ahead of the CPD.
This should have been done nationwide after 9/11, and was done in numerous smaller departments where they didn't need to buy a few thousand radios. NYPD muddled through something like this, but the infrastructure was always the stumbling block. Anyone know if they got it running and CPD is following NYPD (again)?
UPDATE: Digital....but not encrypted? We aren't tech geeks by any stretch, so someone explain please.
Labels: department issues
posted by SCC at 12:02 AM
86 Comments:
The city was probably given hundreds of millions of dollars in federal money after 9/11 to purchase stuff like digital encrypted radios. It was all pissed away on complete nonsense. Remember the TARA training they bragged about a plan that would have warehouses of equipment spread throughout the city, with emergency equipment etc etc etc, well when we needed equipment for the pandemic, it turned out it was all lies.
P25 isn’t encrypted. It’s digital, aka fcc part 25. Fire is on p25 and it’s terrible at times. Encryption is a totally different animal. A $500 scanner can pick up a p25 transmission
There is some very interesting information about P25 encryption on the internet. It sounds like Vanecko invented it just for us. Just think about thousands of 5000.00 dollar radios that can be defeated using one 20.00 children’s toy.
Not really encrypted as once the frequency is out, it's out.
Real encryption would be non-FOIA able...and or rolling encryption.
CFD has been having trouble with them.
Watch what you wish for. Encrypted radios are fine for very small departments that are not that busy. The encrypted radios you have to push the key down, then wait about 1 second and then the radio beeps, then you can talk. Trying to use these types of radios during emergencies is straight up dangerous. For example. If some goof is doing his long winded 30 second 19p narrative in the radio and you start fighting with someone you cannot key up. If you try to key up while that other person is talking your radio will just have a solid beep not letting you talk until that other person or dispatcher has released the key. With the radios we have now, if someone is talking you can yell into the radio and key over whoever. It may be garbages hit the dispatcher can at least hear you and start getting you information and clearing the air. The encrypted radio also makes you sound like you’re transmitting inside a fishbowl. In a big department they are not good at all and extremely frustration. Especially the learning curve there will be a ton of requests to repeat because you can’t start talking u til about 2 seconds after you key up. You need to wait about a second then another half a second for the beep to clear. So anything you say in that two seconds does not transmit. So when your about to fight someone key up and ask the bad guy to hold on 2 seconds. Then also hope that nobody else is talking or a job is being dispatched. I’ve used them for now 7 years on a side job in a suburban department. They are trash to use and operate and the only upside is they can’t be heard on scanners. I will take the safety of our current radios rather than these encrypted radios. If these things were to roll out in 006,007,008,011,010 they would be a disaster. They are challenging and frustrating to use even on the small department I work part time for which only has about 10 cars working each watch. If we get just a little busy you want to run these radios over. The full time coppers who use them said they are the worst thing the department has ever done. Pray we do not get these, it’s not worth it.
Sorry Guys,
P25 is not new, and encrypted communications in P25 is not new either.
It's not rocket surgery, but it does take discipline, commitment, and budget to properly implement secure encryption across a P25 system the size of CPD.
Don’t hold your breath. This makes too much sense.
Going encrypted really does make it look like the police are hiding something. Almost all police radio radio traffic is routine and not sensitive. Active radio traffic is almost always positive showing police performing their duty. Things you'd want to say of a sensitive nature are now done by cell phone or the old "Squad turn the mobile off" work around. Yes, maybe the "D" needs a secure option on occasion. However, the real problem is spoofers penetrating the radio net, like this summer. A digital system will still not prevent the chaos of 20 coppers all keying up at the same time, though there is a feature known as 'ruthless demand'. I will bet dollars to donuts that there was not a robust coordinated/dedicated FCC/OEMC effort to radio locate the offender. I have heard (pardon the pun) that the identity of the main spoofer (and yes you got to know the sound of his voice) is known, and he's a retired copper; maybe true, maybe not. The real reason to make police radio unavailable to the public is politics. When something goes bad, the politicians don't want you to hear: A) that a heater thing happened; B) that maybe the police did the best they could; C) the community acted like morons. Best to control the narrative (our new America, right!) One last thing, Money. The expense of upgrading the states Starcom system, when it comes, will be ENORMOUS. Oh sure, the radio system manufacturer will offer a good deal now, but 10 or 15 years from now when they no longer support this or that and you need to buy new hardware and software, double OUCH!
Who cares
The bottom line, will this technology enhance public safety by making the Police a more efficient force against criminals?
“It's something to enable secure communications (finally) while moving the troops to confront antifa and rioters who were always a step ahead of the CPD.”
I seriously doubt that. The Democrats are not too keen to prosecute their supporters who confront the police. Name a Democrat politician who has cracked down on Antifa & Black Lives Matter. They have made the police stand down and disciplined ones whom Antifa & BLM have filed complaints on.
Blah blah— it’s racist to do that
Areawide1, marine/trainin(per radio ref)e25>encrypted cpd start with the miscellaneous channel first.
If only the FOP would follow the NYPD. Has the NYPD ever been 4 years without a Contract? Do they have a residency rule. Didn't think so. Wise up get a real union not a lodge. Wise up, Desertification ASAP.
Or we can use code, left is right, up is down, Lightfoot is asshole and do on.
Giuliani got his tit in a wringer over radios on 9/11, FDNY members went public and turned on him, for buying the fucked up radios that the had. FDNY members made statements that the radios were the reason so many died in the towers. He took a company based on connections and not function.
Mayor NameChange starts it and Mayor BugEyes parrots it.
Now, kees me you fool!!!!
It is sad. Here you guys are in Motorola's hometown (after Rham threw money at them to get them to come back from Schaumburg) and yet you have radios that can be "hacked" with a $29.99 chinese radio from Amazon.
My downstate community is on P25. Up until a few months ago you could listen in with a fancy scanner but it would have taken $1000's to get a transmitter if you could have found someone to sell it to you. They started encrypting a few months ago. I miss listing in. There was WAY more crime than the media ever covered. Anytime someone would crack "What are we paying the cops for?" I would tell them to go to Broadcastify and listen. Crime wasn't high because the cops were lazy, it is because the courts kept turning them lose.
That was back when police work was allowed. Now I don't blame any cop for not getting out of the squad car.
I like to hear the radio traffic and do not want to see the radio traffic kept from the
public. I want these bad actors locked up . and there leaders locked up for a long time and
then removed from the US . they are coasting me may right to hear.
as for Motorola p25 they charge a lot of money to use the p25 program. GE- Icom -Kenwood have encoding to look in to it.
Welcome to O'Hares nightmare P25 audio SUCKS , Motorola has lost it's spot a the leader in communication . But it is better than the Asshole listing to us and interfering on the old frequencies. Mullane brought the P25 to the last protest, And the white shirts came all over themselves. And just like that the idiots at OEMC order a shit ton of portables for the troops. Only took 20 years for the good guys to get something NEW. AND yes where did all the 9/11 money the city got go too??
You won't like it. Most suburbs in Cook County have them. When someone is talking, they own that band. No breaking in with "Emergency," in a bad situation everyone will cut out everyone else, and NOBODY will be heard. You might think you want them, but on CPD Zones, they will get somebody killed. All thay emergency button does is send out a tone to tell enveryone else someone has an emergency, but if someone is running a name or a vin, NOBODY will hear it and even if heard, NOBODY will know where you are until EVERYBODY on that zone stops talking to let you talk. It works fine in small, quiet suburbs, but in the busier ones, a lot of stories of needing help and "being toned out" because someone (either field unit or the zone) is talking. One story of a chase that went on for some time where nobody was able to talk, as everyone else was trying to talk. Be careful what you wish for.
What’s up with that short tubby LT who wears all the gear in gangs south (I think I saw cascon, not sure)? He looks like Elmer fud’s brother, Elmer Pud. Well LT Elmer pud was telling his guys to “toss cars” the other day in Englewood. Guys a real stroke. You young coppers watch out, this stroke will get you in trouble.
I hear the AES encryption code is "fuck groot"
O.T. So I turn on the tv this morning and there's a states attorney on (Mchenry County, I think), who says he won't prosecute any off Jabba's lockdown orders. Then his face fills the screen and says that the SA should prosecute the laws. #1, Which law is the great fat one talking about? #2, Maybe he should have a conversation with crimeisha first.
Unfreaking believable.
It would also eliminate the tow truck vultures who charge 5k+ for insurance tow. They are always step ahead too
Right after 9/11 I recall little Dick proclaiming, Chicago is not a target.
No encrypted radios needed here. I guess the Vanecko - Daley Police Radio Emporium couldn’t handle a deal back then.
If you are interested in technical details of the fraud conducted by Dominion, read the legal documents below to see how the scam worked but also the foreign interference by China and Iran. Look at some of the highlighted names in the document.
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mied.350905/gov.uscourts.mied.350905.1.15.pdf
I worked in the Intelligence Section in the 1980's and we had incrypted radios supplied by the FBI. They had a lot of limitations at the time which would have made them not practical for daily police work ; range of transmissions, slowness of network for starters. I am sure things have improved a lot since then
Switch to Tac-2, problem solved?
Do you know what our government now is? I'm surprised they aren't proposing to buy Antifa encrypted radios.
Encrypted radios are not all they are cracked up to be. Bad guys with enough money to hire the brains will hack these systems. Citizens trying to help law enforcement by monitoring traffic will no longer be able to. And finally, wait till Chicago spends millions for a system that likely won't work (see also 911 snafus at OEMC for another example). Here's a link to an interesting article written by somebody else about the encrypted comms issue:https://phys.org/news/2016-10-emergency-agencies-radio-encryption.html
And some tech on how P25 works: https://www.taitradioacademy.com/topic/introduction-to-p25-encryption-1/
As a former suburban 911 dispatcher, the best cure for radio security I know is NOT TO KEY THE MIC. Yes, "the enemy is listening", so don't put everything over the air in the first place. Even with encryption. Think before you transmit. I've heard some Chicago traffic that was a total cluster because nobody would shut up, and other times blabbing details that really should have been handled off-the-air. Encryption won't fix those issues, in fact the new systems keep people from 'walking on' other traffic, so nobody might hear your 10-1 the only time you get to key up.
Cook County went encrypted many years ago as well as many suburbs that receive their service. Best thing since sliced bread. Sure, there are those who cry "The public is entitled to hear what the police are doing" etc. Bullcreme, I was lucky enough to drive the test squad with the first CPD MDT. I Remember on a return test trip from Quad cities accessing the system when we reached LaSalle..... and started running plates.
The only problem in Chicago is people like the Mayor will be giving the encode codes out to the bad guys, and even complete radios........ No win situation.
In Afghanistan, one of the radio operators was switching through channels and heard the Taliban talking to each other while US aircraft were doing airstrikes. He had an interpreter pretend to be Taliban. Whenever an aircraft would drop a bomb, he would ask, "Are you all right?" "How close was that to you?" When they answered, "It was 300 yards south of us" or "it went right over us". They were providing the adjustments needed to put bombs right on top of them. They kept up the game until they snuffed them.
"Loose lips sink ships". Using unsecured comms is suicide.
In the wake of Sept 11, 2001 the digital communications rush was on and this behind-the-times City of Chicago had to be told to comply with mandates by FCC and the newly enacted DHS, which in short was to provide radio bands with specific joint agency communication abilities. During the obama-era there was a lot of lallygagging when it came to first responders, yet the lyin’hawaiian managed to hand out free cellphones utilizing those federal grants.
Remember, ShortShanks’s play-nephew Luberman (4 city pension? CPD,CPS,CTA,CITY) was appointed head man at OEMC in 2004, under his “expertise”, had allowed a massive purchases of outdated analog equipment, consoles, parts at some motorola outlet third-party garage sale (Motorola doesn’t sell their antiquities, these items are wholesaled out), he even was responsible for fudging and padding the invoices along with another hack cohort. Basically these two conspired, spent $22 mil for a Fire Digital Radio System that is still reportedly "coming soon" and further made commitments to vendors and Motorola to be sole equipment sources, a deal was in the works for $168 million. Oh, and IG Joe Ferguson was the point investigator on that..imagine that.
FunFact: Larri LightLoafer once had a brief role at OEMC with Luberman...a ho-hum job that didn’t work out...again.
Narrow banding first came up in 1992 to create a Public Safety network. New and Emerging Technologies (NET) 911 Improvement. Act of 2008 (NET 911 Act) came with Democrat stipulations (no clean bill) that gave States ability to squander the grants.
Another component of all this stalling of improvement to the 911 system aside from just Beat handheld radios is all the diversion of Fed funds and grants the City received that the mayors including The AngryToad use for pet projects rather than emergency communications, and don’t forget those exorbitant cellphone bill surcharges too.
Twenty years is a long time to begin to phase is some sort of dedicated police frequency and I expect it to be challenged by the radicals in city hall and of course, el’COPA.
I feel much safer knowing that tactical barbie left cpd for a six figure job working at Motorola handling cpd s account. Making sure we get the best equipment possible since she knows so much about working the streets.
CPD had the chance to join StarCom 21 digital P 25 trunked radio system but they didn't, ISP and a lot of police depts. use it, it has
the ability to be encrypted for sensitive secure communications. Just where did the federal money after 9-11 go for new radio
system go?? Maybe the so called "Media" will investigate. COPA and the black leaders will put the abash on radio encryption as
they think CPD will be trying to hide something. CPD might as well go back to using "Call Boxes". The people making these
decesions have never been in a situation at 3 in the morning trying to radio for help and they never will. God Bless the police officers
on the street. The City doesn't give 2 shits about you! Put your time in , be safe , go home in one piece and retire as soon as
you can! Over and out.
Being Chicago they will buy these radios with no extended warranty and when they break they will be tossed into a bin forever. This was the policy that Johnathan Lewin had for years. What a useless P---k.
Maybe new radios, but before the it goes citywide, the radios by then would be outdated by 10 years as always. Pdts are 15+ years old. We don't even have access to sos pictures. But we have hybrid 2020 explorers which will stop every police chase in it's path.
Anything that puts the cops a step ahead of the rioters/looters/morons is a step in the right direction.
Motorola radios suck. Harris Radios are the best. Not a cop here.
Do NOT use these garbage digital radios. Huge safety hazard in big departments like ours. If this job doesn’t drive you crazy the digital radios will.
P25 is what is called an "open standard" for digital communications. Open means any vendor can make P25 radios. P25 has been around for a while. The CFD and ISP use it. It is a finicky system to get working well. P25 does not play well with an open key or any interference. You can put encryption on top of a P25 system making your transmissions more secure. That said you can still jam any radio system including P25, cellular, regular FM, etc. (OK there are secure military systems out there well beyond the reach of the civilian market that are jam resistant) As for monitoring a non-encrypted P25 system there are high end scanners which do it or if you really get your geek on you download software along and get a SDR (software defined radio) dongle for your computer to monitor non-encrypted p25 for about $20 dollars on a Linux system. As a side note aircraft radio voice transmissions are still the old fashioned AM transmissions. Why? They are reliable, proven, safe systems and can work with interference and open mic situations.
Northwest Central Dispatch (NWCD) went Encrypted around 5 years ago. Arlington Heights, Mt. Prospect, Palatine, Elk Grove, Buffalo Grove, Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates, Streamwood Police Departments. All Fire Departments are in the clear. They are on a P25 system Phase I going to Phase II soon I believe.
Cook County Sheriff was the first department in the area to go encrypted at least 8 years ago.
It's not cheap, but cheaper than it was 8 to 10 years ago.
A lot of suburban Police Departments are going encrypted or are already encrypted.
When my department first switched over, it took a training plus some time before people learned to hold the PTT button for a few seconds before communicating and there were still a lot of 10-9’s. Our system has as an emergency button if you’re in a situation that overrides other messages of you need the band.
new radios will not matter since the dumbest piece of democrat shit is president. this country will be ruled by communists here and in china, antifa and blm.
Starcom is great to communicate in a large area. Voice will be heard without breaking up. If you are in Altgeld Gardens you can talk to a unit at Howard / Kedzie clearly. If your in the suburbs, squad can hear you clearly. However the do not work in building stairways, elevators, parking garages, or basements. Feds have used them for years and even have trouble Between some buildings downtown. If you have a 10-1 the emergency button trumps all radio traffic and opens the air to that radio. Also squad can immediately activate a GPS to locate you. Used approximately a great PO safety tool. Encryption is nice, however their is pending FOIA litigation on encryption. Some departments have gone to 1 primary open channel and encrypted Side channels. I do believe this litigation is still pending. Radios are expensive, depending with ones you get $3000 up to $5000 a radio. On a side note the radios do have the capability of a controller opening your mic to hear you. They also have “man down” capability, that if the radio is on its side for too long squad will be notified. These capabilities are all programmable options of the radio system.
You know, you can just have a few OPS or TAC channels encrypted and switch to that if needed. And to that long winded "watch what you wish for" guy, I'm rolling my eyes in your direction. I thought you dorks were staying fetal? Why do you need to key up quickly?
In addition to the drawbacks noted here, you will not like the dry robotic static popping sound quality of the digital. P25 means digitized voice. When you add the encryption, dead spots result which is why some Coppers dont like the new radios. You will miss the warm human like sound quality of the old analog uhf t band radios and the conventional mobile repeaters. Some depts talk in short clipped robotic rapid phrases because they know only one radio can key up at a time on the system and it's an Officer safety issue.
It's not rocket surgery, but it does take discipline, commitment, and budget to properly implement secure encryption across a P25 system the size of CPD.
***
CPD leadership is so inept they would turn a simple cipher update into a clusterfuck of Lightfoot-sized proportions. We have encrypted radios in the military, COMSEC fills are changed every week on deployment. I work in a unit here where we have encrypted radios that seem to get a new fill every year. If you have good Commo guys, the radios work fine, but that’s never really the case with conventional units and MBITRs or Harris unless you’re deployed for some reason lol. Police fills would need to be done way less than military and the encryption level would be way less/faster/easier but this department would find a way to fuck it all up anyways.
As a civilian, I don't want to see average officers with "encrypted" radios. Full time use of that tech, even for SWAT rubs me completely the wrong way as an American. As for antipussies and Burn, Loot, Murder members being "one step ahead"? Well...... that is probably a function of the CPD and the local governing officials being INFILTRATED by Leftists. While these scumbags have been caught with some good scanners, it is far more likely that they get your plans before YOU do. Even with an expensive, digital scanner, they don't catch EVERY conversation, especially during high traffic situations (maybe 1 in 10 or 20 broadcasts) and important information/details WILL get missed by listeners. Yeah, they have DIRECT information from other Leftists. Even if you were to get that fancy tech, do ya think it would come from anything other than LEFTIST manufacturers? Those radios would be unreliable and HACKABLE, just like the voting machines Democrats bought.
Civilian question. Through your experience working with federal agents did they seem like good people or were they Never Trumpers. I can't imagine all these ex military guys being evil and corrupted. I know the Brennan's and Comey's of the world are evil, but the low level agents? Just curious if they had your backs during the protests or were they law abiding Americans. Happy thanksgiving.
P25 is nothing new. They sell scanners that can read it just fine. Broadcastify also has all the agencies using P25 available on their phone apps. So P25 will change nothing.
Digital means the signal is transmitted over the air using a vast number of ones and zeros, like a CD, rather than an analog wave, like a vinyl record. Digital allows for additional features to be incorporated into the signal, above and beyond mere radio traffic. This COULD include security/exclusivity features, such as with XM, but not necessarily.
Encrypted means, the information is first encoded with a "key" as it is sent, and the receiving station has a copy of this key and is then able to decode it when it's received. Sort of like a high-tech "decoder ring". The primary purpose of encryption is security/exclusivity.
Police mostly use encryption to hide what they are doing from the public. Once in a blue moon this is desirable, but it makes it look like there is something to hide on an ongoing basis because inevitably the information that is given out by the department is sanitized to make the department look good, and everyone on the outside recognizes it for the BS it is. On the whole, transparency is a good thing, and without having independent sources of information, like being able to listen to police radios, there is no such source. Not that there is all that much interest in actual news these days anyway.
This will require MORE Preventive Maintenance, and, if Repair is needed, will ( almost certainly) require return to Factory. The result is LOWER Operational Readiness of the device. This is true for both hand held and vehicle mounted devices. Given the well deserved reputation CPD has for Maintenance matters across the board, this will NOT work
I do not mean to cast aspersions on the Integrity and Skill of on the street CPD, merely to state the obvious fact that CPD handles vehicle and equipment and weapons and facilities maintenance poorly.
I worked for a Sheriff's Office, for a long time, that used an encrypted radio system. It was not the largest but certainly not the smallest in the country. It was one of the largest in the state. Using encryption does not make it look like something is being hidden. It keeps the public from knowing that something bad has happened to Mr. Brown at a certain address. It may be medical in nature but he still has the right to privacy. It keeps neighbors and friends from descending upon the scene while things are in progress. It keeps the media from listening in and descending upon the scene and making themselves a PITA. Freedom of the press just means they have the right to find stuff out, not that you have to inform them or use a system where they can listen in. Hell if this was the fact then why can't they listen to phone calls. They would root out more corruption that way than by listening to radios. It also keeps the criminals from listening in and either running, using it to know when officers are patrolling another area, or setting up to ambush officers. Encryption keeps communications safe. If it caused distrust, then why does almost every federal radio have it? Without encryption a cheap scanner can listen to anything that is going down, and codes do not help. The people that listen in either know the codes, or have a copy of them.
P25 is used at O'Hare. Terrible transmissions at times, sounds all garbled and robot-like in certain areas.
The worst is when we're working a snow program on the airfield clearing snow and O'Hare OPS is trying to tell snow leads not to cross a runway and all we hear is garbled noise on the radios.
The new radios that we got are horrible, even though they are the Motorola brand. Anybody else agree?
The city was given money to do this years ago. Other departments have been utilizing this for a long time
I’ve never been in law enforcement, but I have been a ham radio licensee for decades and I program radios for people to listen (never to transmit!) on CPD frequencies regularly.
STARCOM21 is a public safety radio system with about 186 towers (like cell towers) all over Illinois, owned by ISP and run by Motorola. It uses the P25 protocols and is fully digital for voice, data, and control signaling. Motorola charges a per-radio fee every month to agencies that use it. Some frequencies (like ISPERN) are repeated between digital and analog radios, depending on the agency.
Scanners that can listen to STARCOM21 are more expensive than analog scanners but are easily purchased and work well. Radio nerds like me with SDR receivers can use software to do the same.
The system is capable of encryption but most of the agencies who use STARCOM21 haven’t turned it on yet. It’s not clear to me if it costs more on a monthly basis to use the encryption, but I suspect it’s mostly because the agencies involved don’t have the expertise to distribute and manage the encryption keys. OEMC has been my customer in the past and if they have that kind of expertise, they have successfully hidden it from me.
Doing encryption right is hard, and I’m not convinced that the system’s implementation was done correctly or been through any external testing. While I have enough background in radio and cybersecurity to take a swing at it, I haven’t had enough interest and time to try.
The Wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCom21) and RadioReference.com page (https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?stid=17) are useful resources.
Google: P25 encryption crack
Where is the city going to get the money? Portables cost around $3000 each not to mention all of the new towers that need to be installed and new radio dispatch consoles. The only one that makes out is Motorola. The city should buy bullet resistant vests instead
This was presented before and Daley blocked it.
I’m a “Geacewood” dude so I was working in Deering at both locations. I worked for Lt. Jerome on Mids for a bit. He PFT’ed me a couple times where I dealt with him face to face upon transferring into The 009.
Then, Lt. Jerome came off to me as the Copper I could see being suspended, let alone for an entire Month. Let me see if I have this? C/O Jerome was sleeping(could be bullshit cuz I think he powers on/off)Whatever The T-1000 does. He has to put himself together lickity split and ponder WTF?!
C/O Jerome then, in the wee hours has to deal with The Third Largest Police Department Boss in The United States and make a series of calls.
I, honestly, thought these Assholes that are a Poor excuse for a Big City Command Staff, would be able to at least stop some bleeding. Hey, Jerome could hate my guts, but he’s a “Real Police” remember when you fell for that? He’s a damn good Copper, and, fuck all, a Decent Boss. That’s something Hard to find on The CPD.
Insane Suspension
NYPD radio encryption most likely won’t happen in 2020 – but will soon:
https://www.amny.com/news/nypd-radio-encryption-most-likely-wont-happen-in-2020-but-will-soon/
NYPD Citywide 4 P25 w/ AES encryption
NYPD VIP Escort (Detective 2) P25 w/ AES encryption
NYPD Organized Crime Control Bur. 2 P25 w/ AES encryption
NYPD Command P25 w/ AES encryption
NYPD Internal Affairs Bureau P25 w/ AES encryption
New Chicago OEMC Public Safety - 800 MHz P25:
https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/new-chicago-oemc-public-safety-800-mhz-p25.369870/
Motorola APX8000 series ALL-BAND OPERATION
4 Bands in 1 Radio: 7/800 MHz, VHF and UHF Range 1 and Range 2 bands
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/en_us/products/two-way-radios/project-25-radios/portable-radios/apx-8000.html#tabproductinfo
Stay safe officers
Not all Digital is encrypted....the radio techs turn on that option in the settings and designate a password that must be displayed at both ends, that is, "end to end encryption". In the UK and France they have something called Tetra that no scanner can recieve. This stuff is so sophisticated its ip based ,meaning the system only recognizes radios that display the correct mac id. It's way beyond the understanding of the people that actually use the radios.
Not all Digital is encrypted....the radio techs turn on that option in the settings and designate a password that must be displayed at both ends, that is, "end to end encryption". In the UK and France they have something called Tetra that no scanner can recieve. This stuff is so sophisticated its ip based ,meaning the system only recognizes radios that display the correct mac id. It's way beyond the understanding of the people that actually use the radios.
From what I understand it's not encrypted, but the scanner apps on your phone can't broadcast it. Those were what people were using.
Radio guy say.....When we got the new radios they said don’t use the C channel because the encryption doesn’t work yet.
How are you this oblivious to obvious security risks of unsecured radio? Do you not realize how easy it would be to completely mess with our transmissions during an attack? 20 open keys on cheater radios, is all it would take and we’ve got some serious damage. One dipshit with a cheater calling out false10-1’s? There’s only about a billion shitty scenarios. Who gives a shit if it looks like we’re hiding something?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Going encrypted really does make it look like the police are hiding something. Almost all police radio radio traffic is routine and not sensitive. Active radio traffic is almost always positive showing police performing their duty. Things you'd want to say of a sensitive nature are now done by cell phone or the old "Squad turn the mobile off" work around. Yes, maybe the "D" needs a secure option on occasion. However, the real problem is spoofers penetrating the radio net, like this summer. A digital system will still not prevent the chaos of 20 coppers all keying up at the same time, though there is a feature known as 'ruthless demand'. I will bet dollars to donuts that there was not a robust coordinated/dedicated FCC/OEMC effort to radio locate the offender. I have heard (pardon the pun) that the identity of the main spoofer (and yes you got to know the sound of his voice) is known, and he's a retired copper; maybe true, maybe not. The real reason to make police radio unavailable to the public is politics. When something goes bad, the politicians don't want you to hear: A) that a heater thing happened; B) that maybe the police did the best they could; C) the community acted like morons. Best to control the narrative (our new America, right!) One last thing, Money. The expense of upgrading the states Starcom system, when it comes, will be ENORMOUS. Oh sure, the radio system manufacturer will offer a good deal now, but 10 or 15 years from now when they no longer support this or that and you need to buy new hardware and software, double OUCH!
Anonymous said...
If only the FOP would follow the NYPD. Has the NYPD ever been 4 years without a Contract? Do they have a residency rule. Didn't think so. Wise up get a real union not a lodge. Wise up, Desertification ASAP.
11/26/2020 03:39:00 AM
You, my friend, have no idea of what you ask. New York and Illinois are two different political systems with different laws. And, decertification would be a disaster . Better to work from within.
The problem with encrypted radios is they need to be re-encrypted every month. Even on a small scale, it can become very difficult for a radio officer to update radios via KVL or OTR, as it takes about a 2 minutes per radio. Radios that aren’t encrypted or have a technical issue while encryption will not have coms, and that becomes an officer safety issue.
Going digital would be a step in the right direction. It wouldn’t be encrypted, but most people wouldn’t have digital scanners or radios to listen in.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
The new radios that we got are horrible, even though they are the Motorola brand. Anybody else agree?
11/26/2020 02:40:00 PM
Totally agree. Everyone sounds like an underwater robot. They’re not clear at all.
Digital: Better utilization of the available frequencies by converting the signal from a fluctuating sine wave to "on/off" bits that are encoded into patterns that software in the radio can decode and understand.
Standardized formats used, so anyone with the same software program can decode it, convert it back to sound and listen in.
Better utilization because depending on the coding, you can have different "channels" configured that all use the same frequency. It's just a matter of "bits" being set differently in the codes. Digital signals can also use the Internet or some other similar network to get transmitted where ever they need to be. You could have a dispatch office in TimbukTu, so long as it had a proper connection. Localized antennas carry the signals to the radios. In some instances, those could be digital signals off of Cell Towers.
Encryption: Scrambling the encoded signals with a key so only those who know the key can decode it and listen to it. Encryption is based on mathematical formulas that take additional computing power. It can be "decrypted" by persons who don't have the key if:
* Poor encryption method was used
* Short key was used
* Key gets compromised by someone who has it
* Key gets compromised due to some hardware in the radio that allows it to be derived
* Various other attacks against keys: Side-channel, Power Analysis, Differential Analysis, etc.
Then you have to reprogram all the radios with the new keys. How do you do that securely? Can be challenging and costly. In some cases, it can't be done over the air, has to be done on-site by some engineer... It's complicated, and honestly, probably beyond the capabilities of the City to handle considering they can fuck up a 1 car parade.
Digital uses a higher frequency than that used by currently ( VHF/ UHF). The higher the Frequency, the more it is Line of Sight; High Frequency/ AM follies the curvature of the Earth and was traditionally used for long range communications, usually in Morse Code. But anything in UHF ( Ultra High Frequency) or SHF/ EHF ( Super High Frequency/ Extremely High Frequency) is Line of Sight. The GOOD News is that Chicago is completely flat, with no natural terrain ( hills/ mountains) to block the signal; the BAD News is all the tall buildings which will block the signal.
Google: Software Defined Radio
I cannot comment on spoofing of Digital Radio. I can, however, guarantee that ANYTHING that transmits a Radio- frequency signal CAN be jammed, IF you (a) know the frequency (b) know more or less where transmitter is so you can get as close as possible (c) can transmit a stronger ( more power, more watts) signal on the frequency being used. Jamming does not have to be continuous. Random Jamming— just a few minutes every hour or so, is extremely frustrating to deal with because you never really know if it is Jamming or maintenance issues or environmental ( weather) matters.
The biggest problem with encrypted radios is a transmission delay. When you press the transmit button there is a 1/2 second or delay for the transmission to kick in and lock in before sending your message. In an emergency, like being shot at, a good portion of your initial transmission may be cut off delaying help getting to you. That's primarily why they are not in general, but specific use.
" If you have a 10-1 the emergency button trumps all radio traffic and opens the air to that radio. Also squad can immediately activate a GPS to locate you. "
Nope, only sends out a tone to let evryone know that SOMEBODY has an emergency SOMEWHERE. Doesn't override the band (This from the CCSPD guru that is in charge of programming and distributing these radios.) Newest ones out now are $7000 a pop. And the encrypted radios have 128 character encryption. No scanner yet can pick them up. Every south suburb and most west suburbs are encrypted now. Worked at one part time in my post CPD life. If ANYBODY is talking on the band, nobody will hear you.
One suburban guy went to a gun call, got surrounded and could not get on the air, as someone was running something. Another one ended up in a fight, never able to get on the radio until he had the bad guys in cuffs. Encryption is not good for busy places. And in Chicago, someone WILL die because of it.
It's not the radios that are no good. They are good, but the overall radio system and how it's set up sucks.
P25 sucks and it’s owned by Motorola
11/26/2020 07:18:00 PM
I was FOP for over 30 years, they are useless as a bargaining unit, they are a frat, social group who do best organizing golf outings and benefits. Decertify and get real representation.
Digital versus encrypted. Digital converts your voice into a bunch of ones and zeros and transmits thru the radio and over the air. Unless you have a digital receiver (fairly common), all you will get is static or white noise. Encrypted systems take the digital ones and zeros and changes them with a encryption key and then transmits them thru you radio and over the air. If you have the encryption key in your radio you can listen to the call. If not, you can listen to the frequency but will only hear static or white noise. Think about early cell phones and how you could use a radio scanner to listen to cell phone calls back in the mid 1990s and the non-existent ability to listen to them now unless you have some very sophisticated monitoring equipment from Harris Corp. or Boeing.
As a non-LEO. I live in a high crime northeast city that recently encrypted police radios. while I always put LEO safety first, one problem for me is that the politicians and their media propagandist can hide what going on and can filter the news, we citizens have become effectively blind to what happening in our city.
I was FOP for over 30 years, they are useless as a bargaining unit, they are a frat, social group who do best organizing golf outings and benefits. Decertify and get real representation.
11/27/2020 08:26:00 AM
Been here almost as long as you, and you hit the nail on the head. I'll add they sell us out to get a nice spot, or promotion for themselves or their progeny. That last contract boggles the mind, negotiating for new squad cars, WTF. If the city can't supply us with cars so that we can do our job efficiently, we can walk the beat, or get us horses, or APC's, Yugo's, four fucking wheels and a seat, its not a contractual matter.
FOP has been like government, they have lost sight of their original purpose. And in the case of both, a changing of the old guard is necessary. Let's hope JC works for us.
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