This Worries Us
There isn't much that actually makes us lose sleep anymore. Most of it, we can ignore or drown with frosty beverages. This, however, kind of worries us:
- One of two troopers ambushed while searching for an escaped convict died Sunday of his injuries, and state police vowed to capture the man they believe killed him.
- Saturday marked five months since he cut his way out of an Erie County jail with a can opener. Since then, he has been suspected in the non-fatal shooting of another trooper in June near Elmira in southern New York, and police said he has survived on the run by stealing about 15 vehicles and breaking into hunting camps and a gun shop.
Channel 2, Channel 5 and the Tribune have coverage.
Granted, chances of running into this specific psycho are remote. But a dedicated woodsman, proficient in firearms usage, and with a decent support system and nothing to lose, could wreak an unimaginable havoc on a good sized portion of any big city department. Our firearms training is poor to middling; our outdoors type skills are limited to those individuals with some military or hunting type backgrounds; we have a very tiny number of rifles and shotguns that could be called up in a street type emergency. In other words, we would be obliged to throw a large amount of "cannon fodder" at such a subject to bring him down and we just wonder if the Department is up to it.
Granted, chances of running into this specific psycho are remote. But a dedicated woodsman, proficient in firearms usage, and with a decent support system and nothing to lose, could wreak an unimaginable havoc on a good sized portion of any big city department. Our firearms training is poor to middling; our outdoors type skills are limited to those individuals with some military or hunting type backgrounds; we have a very tiny number of rifles and shotguns that could be called up in a street type emergency. In other words, we would be obliged to throw a large amount of "cannon fodder" at such a subject to bring him down and we just wonder if the Department is up to it.
posted by SCC at 12:03 AM
25 Comments:
Pray for the trooper, God rest his soul.
i think the bosses would all agree yes we are up to it we have a large amount of cannon fodder
If the city could figure out a way for the police not to carry a firearm, they would've been all over it YESTERDAY. This is the Daley administration, LIABILITY, takes away from wrought iron fences and concrete planters. Mind you, I will giggle with glee(shamefully I add) , when some shark files a lawsuit stating my client who would still be alive/mentally stable/ or a virgin if that officer could've seen the other side of the street. What a complete waste of the taxpayers money.
This was borne out a few years ago in L.A. 9MM's against determined, body armored assailants with rifles.
Actually, in certain situations I'd rather have a 9mm than anything else. Winchester makes the 127 +p+ which I believe is the only common or authorized bullet that is capable of piercing a vest. Besides, do you think a 40 or 45 would have done any better than the 9? No sir, I doubt it. Those guys were so well covered with body armour that only a high powered rifle of a very good shot with a pistol in the small parts of the body that wasn't covered with body armour would have made a difference.
Do some research before you rip the 9. Talk to some ER doctors and listen to what they say. Most will tell you that when a gunshot victim is brought into the ER, they can't tell what he was shot with by simply looking at the hole or damage done to the body. Go to Tactical Forums.com and look in the Navy SEALS post. There is a SEAL that posts there by the name of Frogman. Read what he has to say about the Sig 226 and the 9mm round it's chambered for. You might be surprised.
It's SHOT PLACEMENT that matters most, not caliber. Remember, ALL pistols are poor self defense weapons. 9mm, .38, .357,.40,.45, doesn't matter. They are all in the same boat. They suck. We carry pistols only because we can't carry a rifle. A pistol is a very poor substitute for a rifle. If you knew that you were going to be involved in a gunfight, only a fool would go with only a pistol.
Go to the range with your choice of weapon. Practice and become as good as you can with that pistol. Don't be like most on this job when it comes to weapons, which is ignorant. Don't rely on so called "man stoppers" or bullets that are capable of "one shot stops". They don't exist. Practice makes perfect. That way when you DO get into a shootout you will probably do better than most. And if you are confronted by criminals as they were in L.A, perhaps you will do better than they did. Or at least take out the bad guy and live another day.
That is all!
How do you use a can opener to break out of jail? That's a new one on me!
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, I hate to do this, I really do, but the time has come for some sensible legislation. It is time for a Federal ban and nation wide confiscation of can openers, including those owned by law enforcemnt and the military. If this guy did not have a can opener, he would still be in jail. Can openers ruin countless lives and can even kill people.
Don't worry about it..if we were chasing this mo-fo for his stolen car..our bosses would terminate the chase anyways. Great Dept. We work in.
RIP OFFICE!!
To SCC:
There is a new blog site called "Prayers for Police Officers"
Could you please link this to your site?
www.prayersforpoliceofficers.blogspot.com
Thanks!
Until the Department starts taking training seriously, we will never be prepared for a major incident. Look at the last 'big' training event the Department held - the active shooter scenario at Stienmetz (sp?) H.S. Very little direction resulting in some questionable tactics and outcomes and a lot more questions asked at the end then at the beginning. A few of the people there understood how limited the scope of the training was, but a lot of people also thought this was really good training - despite the gaping holes in the scenario. But if you talk to the people running the show and making the decisions you'd hear that it was great and went off without a hitch... Listen, no one hopes for disaster - but until we have a major event here in Chicago, the Department will never be willing to accept how unprepared we are, and the City will just keep pouring millions into the FD to buy them more toys (no offense to CFD personnel - I used to be a FF also) Thank God we have a few people on the Department, (mostly P.O.s) that seem to understand that someday the big even will come to Chicago - and they are making the best individual preperations that they can....
Shotguns? Patrol Carbines? Quick response of additional and / or adequate firepower to end hostilities? Well trained and rehearsed scenarios layed out for first responders (beat cars)? Adequate Command and Control structures for a major incident? A plan? A clue? What do all these things have in common?
They are all things that the Department doesn't possess and the Brass won't even consider.
long guns, in the hands of those who need them, in a timely manner......not in this city, not now, not ever.
I've heard that the new Area 2 Gun Team Lt. won't allow his officers to execute search warrants without a shotgun being taken out. All the officers on the A/2 Gun Teams
have all been trained on the shotgun (at the Lts. request, I hear), and they MUST take one out on all raids. Glad to see a boss takes this job seriously!! I don't know the name of the LT over at A/2, but he sounds like somebody I want to work for!
Poster commented:
" Listen, no one hopes for disaster - but until we have a major event here in Chicago, the Department will never be willing to accept how unprepared we are, and the City will just keep pouring millions into the FD to buy them more toys (no offense to CFD personnel - I used to be a FF also"
Pouring money into the FD? Where are you looking buddy? If you mention the bunkers well most of us don't want them. But we are the last big city to get them.
Well all I have to say is let me encounter that jail breaking cop killer on the East Coast. I'd love a chance encounter with him.
long guns, in the hands of those who need them, in a timely manner......not in this city, not now, not ever.
Which, ironically, can be registered and legally possessed in the city. Mark Twain be damned.
Tom Byrne is no relation to that "other Byrne! Check your facts before you print them!
Using a 9mm over a 45 will make a difference. Ive shot people with both. Damage from 45 is significantly more. And will be quicker in incapacitating a person who isnt fataly hit. Secondly, 127+p+ WILL NOT go thru a level IIIa vest, only up to a level II. Do some research before you post and criticize others. There are countless shootings and FBI data that lauds the 45 and condemns the 9mm,
Interesting. I've read that data and I do not see where it " condems" the 9mm. As a matter of fact, I believe that they conclude that shot placement is far more important than caliber. But if want to believe that the overall diameter of a 45 compared to a 9 is that great, go ahead.
8:54 AM
How about the forty?
My pistol of choice: The Glock Models 22 (standard), 23 (compact) and 27 (subcompact), all in .40 S&W caliber.
This guy is no different than themutts we have here and no more or less dangerous. His environment is just different. He can survive in the woods. Be could not so a day in the concrete jungle. Now, here we have people who can survive and be a danger to us all. They have support and know their environment. They sould not last a day in the woods in Upstate NY.
You all talk aboout this gun, or that gun, rifle, shot gun, what ever. It does not make any difference. It is who gets the drop on who. A twenty two will kill you just as dead as a cannon.
A base ball bat will kill you if the bad boy sneaks up on you at the Starbucks outdoor cafe.
Different people, different environments. Oh, yeah, most, if not all, of you city slickers, and all your fancy shootin irons, and bullets, and what not would also not last one day in the woods against this guy. Even if he was only armed with a can opener, he would still take you. Remember that.
Let's talk about what we know, not tavern dreams and imaginary scenarios that you saw in some movie that you believe is based on reality.
The history of this Department is rife with us bringing in the worst of the worst, the most feared, horrible, bad ass killers on the planet. It used to be dead or alive. Now we use brains and we still get them.
An old, decrepit, Chicago cop with a thirty eight and a set of balls will make you guys look like the fools that you are. And if I had my choice when I went after Mr. urban warfare trained heavily armed bad guy, I would pick the old, decrepit guy with one gun and a set of balls to help me.
The rest of you can hear about it in the news while you are cleaning all of your fancy hardware.
09/04 10:56
Actually I wasn't commenting on the bunkers (although personally I think they are a lifesaver) - More on the heavy equipment purchases and training. I know just like in the PD, when this stuff comes into the FD, most of the line personnel never get a chance to see, much less utilize the new equipment - and yes, most of it is paid for by the Feds - but in terms of overall expenditures the FD is reaping more of the training and equipment spending being done by the city. I'm not saying you guys don't need it, but the first responder training is what's missing for the PD - If something really bad happens, we will probably get there first (it is our function)as we are already rolling on the street - the FD will be the ones to clean up most of the mess - it's just the fact that they will arrive to find a trail of dead cops that has me worried...
We ALL (PD, FD, OEMC, Etc.) need more and better training......
.45 caliber any day for stopping power over the 9M.M. Shot Placement is ideal for any weapon, however, the .45 could stop a perp whereas if shot by a 9M.M. in the same area would probably not. I like the 9M.M. but I like a .45 cal even more. Model 1911 rocks!!! Legendary handgun no doubt.
So much for my fire alarm....I have an illegal alien who sits on my roof for $10.00 dollars a day...when he smells smoke he shouts...Aye Carumba, FIIIIIRE !! Guess they dont work all the time.
How about the forty?
9/05/2006 07:43:23 PM
.40 cal. = the answer to the question that nobody asked. Not as much penetration as a 9mm, not as much stopping power as a .45 ACP. I'll take a .45 ACP cal. pistol any day of the week over either 9mm or .40 cal. Why do you think all of the other major city SWAT teams are going back to 1911-style pistols in .45 ACP cal.?
<< Home