Alternate Weapon Qualification - Take 2
A reader who provoked the initial discussion about alternate weapon qualifications said the FOP was intending to fight a losing battle. A commentator countered that the FOP was actually fighting to get the City to pay for the ammunition expended in qualifying if they were in fact, going to make qualifying with an identical firing system weapon an issue.
If anyone has accurate info, that would be helpful to the discussion at hand.
If you've been following the debate in the comments section, a number of interesting points are being raised which would fill a week or more worth of posting by SCC:
If anyone has accurate info, that would be helpful to the discussion at hand.
If you've been following the debate in the comments section, a number of interesting points are being raised which would fill a week or more worth of posting by SCC:
- Why can't you carry it if you can qualify with it? (conventional firing systems)
- Why limit the calibers and choice of ammo?
- Why only qualify once a year?
- Why not have the ranges open 24/7?
- Why not have additional in-service training days as part of a contract agreement (yes, we know the City refuses to train us on their dime - fight for it)
The City recently agreed to allow everyone 100 rounds of ammo to shoot at the ranges once a year. Let's face it, if you aren't putting 100 rounds through your gun every month in some sort of a tactical scenario environment, you are letting your skills deteriorate - badly. Even we admit to being lax with our service weapon, but we like firing stuff we can't carry on the streets.
In any case, more qualification isn't a bad thing. A gun is a tool and the only way you get better at it, is using it. Safely. Properly. Regularly.
In any case, more qualification isn't a bad thing. A gun is a tool and the only way you get better at it, is using it. Safely. Properly. Regularly.
Labels: department issues, gun issues
posted by SCC at 12:04 AM
53 Comments:
Uhmmm, if the department goes lite on trainning aren't they opening themselves up to lawsuits in the aftermath of a shooting?
There are a couple of studies showing the more firearms trainning the fewer "bad" shoots.
Undertrained officers have actually been shown to go for their gun and use it at the wrong moment. Firing into vehicles when no one is shooting at them etc.
As one who shoots regulary, I could not agree with you more.
Agree one-hundred percent. We should shoot more. With all the avenues the city has to get the ammunition it is insanity to make us pay for it.
SCC, are there any comments from some Range guys?
When can we qualify?
Where can we qualify?
Who can we contact in order to start this process rolling?
I've spent "a minute" calling some area ranges only to have it ring.
In the immortal words of Blondie, "Don't leave me hanging on the telephone."
The City should do like Milwaukee PD. The officers in Milwaukee are given a credit of $3,000 to attain training outside of their Dept. They enroll in courses by professional institutions, IE Blackwater, Valhalla, Spartan TTG, Gunsite, ot name a few. If they don't take advantage of it, the City doesn't pay out. Only a fraction of them take advantage of it.
100 rounds for practice??? Since when? The range guys never give out this free ammo.
How about quarterly "training" with annual "qualification"
This State is WAY behind in the standards for police officers.
The State training board only made it mandatory per state law to qualify each year in mid 2005((50 ILCS 710/) Peace Officer Firearm Training Act.).
The State course is a joke,far too easy.How about in addition to static booth shooting,mandatory State law to some FATS type training???
Take that money for CEASFIRE and give it to the Cops not the thugs.
Why do you even need guns? With all of the gun bans, Chicago should be a loving peaceful town to work in.......
signed,
a suburban gunowner who is tired of Chicago gun control laws for the rest of the state......
You people wont go shoot even if the city pays for the ammo. Most of you dont even oil your weapons but once a year after qualifying if your lucky.
The State should have built a state of the art Police training facility at the old Joliet Arsenal.
But since selecting and "training?" officers is a joke and a half,this will never happen.
The only reason they want you to qualify all your weapons is so they can keep track of what weapons you own.
Damned if do damned if dont qualify!
If you are on the street with a weapon that you do not shoot well, then shame on YOU. If you are off duty and carrying a weapon, then it is safe to assume that you are prepared to take police action. If your "readiness" includes a gun that you do not shoot well then SHAME ON YOU. We should all be adult enough to realize if there is fault in our shooters mechanics or shortcomings with different weapons. The department has to act as babysitter to make sure we have ability to fire all weapons we want to carry? it is pathetic to think that there are Police Officers that need to be hand fed.
Yeah 24/7 ranges so people on here can complain about the people who work there being "connected."
Someone said they have 10? duty guns. Why? You need maybe 2 or 3 at the most. Now that I am a Glock guy, I will probably dump my old duty gun, hell maybe trade it for more ammo. Master one gun, its all you will need.
More firearms practice would be great. As a PO with 5 years on and been involved in a couple of shootings I think more practice would be helpful. The problem is our range staff at he academy. Most are unqualified and do not seem to want to put any of us through any relevant practice. Especially when your down there on your own time. But then again, most are down there for their cush job! Hopefully the new sup dumps them!
I am a retired P/O going out with 32 years. I pay $75.00 a year to carry concealed qualify. It is worth every cent to keep proficient. Why cry about a few dollars. Don't drink 1 weekend and you have your ammo money.
How about the union move forward on this front.
Every person on the department is able to take college classes at almost any school around. All you need is a passing grade and they will pay for you cost all the way up to 100% for an A
How come there is not a comparable program for weapons training or what other dept call and pay for "on the job training"?
With Blackwater North, local ranges, and other organiztions that offer classes there are plenty job training porgrams available in the area but they do cost a bit.
I am all for the people who take college classes to better themselves but I woul bet if a little research was done on the exact degrees and classes taken a number of them do not directly apply to the job like law enforcemnt degrees.
Not everyone needs to obtain a higher degree to fell worth something on this job. Specific on the job training as in shooting and hand to hand tactics etc is a lot more valuable on the street then a MBA.
Just a thought FOP, where are you at?
WARNING . . .
Smith & Wesson owners with revolvers made after 2001 . .
. . Integral Lock Induced Failure
For those of you that don't know, thanks to Clinton, all revolvers made after 2001 must have an Integral Lock on them. You literally need a key to turn on the frame of the gun to make it function. There have been a number of misfires due to this.
Check out:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/
forums/a/tpc/f/500103904
/m/228102718
Heck, I'll pay for my own ammo...but when can you even get in their range?????
Remember not that long ago, when the academy range was going to be open Saturdays 0600-1600 to shoot on your own time with your own ammo? Not for long, some long time friends, seperated only by assignments/promotions had planned to meet, shoot and then do brunch to catch-up. We showed up twice on Saturdays, after having called during the week to comfirm availably, only to be turned away. Told that the range was not open or "other wise committed" for other training.
Believe it when and if you see it...
The 100 rounds of ammo a year is a start, but we all know that is plain useless. Where can you go shoot it. What range will actually let you come down and shoot anytime? Oh wait the Academy on Sat mornings.....yea when I am off the weekend the first thing I want to do is spend time at the range instead of with my kids and wife.
I can understand paying for your duty ammo as you do get uniform allowance(also I would probably not carry the dept issue ammo as it's prbably the worst round anyways...though the new win bonded +P is a very good round still would carry something different as I do in all my guns) , but for practice ammo, well that is whole nother opinion on my part. Why would the department not offer ammo to their employees to only better themsleves or offer training sessions while on duty? ITs frikin outrageous what they make these guys buying the polymer guns do just to better equip themselves against the Shitheads out there. They have to buy the gun, then buy case of ammo and snapcaps and then go on their RDO"S or BURN TIME to go to the mandated class which is 2 8hr days 3 in the cases for revolver shooters. While I have been through the class and think it is def a good thing to try and weed out some problems and inform people that these new light pull triggers go off very easily when not properly handled (as noted by 2 already A D's)its is plain rediculous to have to burn you Cu or RDO's for 8hrs to again better equip and train yourself. I have seen it for myself and also heard of several officers failing the Trans course by not passing the qual. THAT IS FRIKIN EMBARRASING. You should be able to shoot that with your eyes closed the target is so dam close.
Now what is gonna happen to those of us with 40 cal or 45cal come quals? Department doesn't even have 40cal ammo.....So now the guy who's primary can now be a 40cal or 45 cal per G.O. is supposed to be supplied with Duty Ammo. So what are they gonna give me....... a voucher for when I go qualify?
I can seee the argument from the FOP but I think they are going at it the wrong way. They shouldn't be fighting the qual part of it,as you should actually in my eyes have to qualify more than once a year. They shouild be fighting for more range/training time and ammo for us. At leats we have finally entered the 20th century with computers and weapon sytems now authourized. Lets just hope the dumb fuks who didn't take the trans courses ain't carrying the guns to ruin it for us all.
Ghetto SGT for life
The academy range was open for 1st watch officers for several months this year, then it closed. Any chance it will reopen?
with 5 years on and been involved in a couple of shootings I think more practice would be helpful.
Wow
** If you actively go to the range and train on your own time this post is not directed at you. **
Quit expecting the city to take us by the hand for everything. Whats next, putting in a slip for cleaning your gun at home once a month?
If you feel that the training is not adequate then seek it out on your own (its your life on the line). Too many coppers complain about not having enough training and then do absolutely nothing about it on their own. A box of 50 rounds costs around $15 give or take a couple bucks (although you might as well bring 2 boxes and fire off 100). You can find ranges with fees around $20 and be done within an hour. This could be easily done twice a year for a total of around $100. If you cant find the time to go to a range once in a while then you are a fool. The city is ok with the thought of us on the losing end of a shoot out (our deaths usually would have cost less then the lawsuit for shooting some offender). I would rather come out alive so I drag myself to the range a couple times a year. Sure it would be nice to do more, and would be great to get paid while doing it, but until that happens I will subsidize what little training they offer myself. The sad fact is that a lot of coppers will not step foot in a range unless they are getting paid for it despite whats at stake.
i'll take the time if i need to use it, as long as its registered.
My cousin was a G man and according to him, tyhe G would let you shoot all you want and they furnish the ammo.
Obviously its a money issue but it would be nice if the CPD did the same
Also I agree that t he ranges whould be open at least 16 hours a day.
24 would be great and may save a few guys who work the 4pm to 4 am shift a few dui arrests
Im not sure whether an arbitrator will rule that the city has o furnish ammo and allow qualification on company time for other than the one duty weapon which ever it is.
The reason is that they only require carrying the duty weapon while on duty
And actually they mey be trying to discourage off-duty carry by making it a hassle
I do think that we dont spend nearly enough time training with the tool that has the most potential to cause bodily harm and lawsuits so requiring qualifying with all weapons is reasonable to an extent
its also a shame that we dont have adequate training
No hogans alley for instance
I like the Milwaukee PD idea to pay for outside training like tuition reimbursement
Whos reaponsible for the lawsuit then, the Milwaukee PD or the blackwater or whomever
Thank God we are not having old thinking running our department. The new SUPT. believes in training and more training. Also if your still carrying a revolver your a bigger idiot. You don't care about your family, your partner or even your own life. Retire or quit!!! When our officers are given one hundred rounds a year to shoot, and qualify twice a year with that 30 round monkey course and we wonder why our officers are getting into bad shoots. SHOOTING IS A PERISHABLE SKILL!! Doesn't matter if your carrying the new Glock, you still have to train with your weapon. Since this dept doesn't give you the training then use your clothing allowance check to seek training. Tactical Firearms Training is available. For example, Spartans Training, Blackwater just to name a couple. Your fat asses sit in bars drinking, use the money to train so when you do shoot, you will actually hit what your shooting at. Some advice for officers that have been in bad shootings or excessive use of force cases. Tell your lawyer to pull up your training record. It's not the officer's fault. We receive all this training at the academy and then once we hit the streets...NOTHING!!!! When's the last time we had updates in Defensive Tactics or given classes in Tactical Shooting? Compare the officer's training records to other depts. Hold CPD responsible not the officer.
The only reason they want you to qualify all your weapons is so they can keep track of what weapons you own.
Damned if do damned if dont qualify!
What u have to register your duty weapons anyways Asshat. they already know what you have.
12/03/2007 11:38:00 AM
For those of you that don't know, thanks to Clinton, all revolvers made after 2001 must have an Integral Lock on them.
Thats total BS,there is NO federal law requiring an integral lock.Smith&Wesson did this on thier own when they redesigned thier lockwork to thier revolver line(1999).
Anybody that is a S&W amourer or gunsmith knows that Smith cheapend thier product with crapola MIM internal parts.
I just bought a new Ruger Super Redhawk .44mag and there isnt an integral lock on it.
Why should the fop fight for more ammo when 73% (according to a range instrcts) of this department doesn't even use the 100 rounds set aside for us? Come on guys and gals! Use up this ammo THEN we can bitch and moan. I am all for having a range that is open, functioning and convenient for our use but unless they see that we will make use of it then it will never happen. We need to stop asking for things we won't ever use and concentrate on more important issues. Just a thought.
UHHHHMMMMM I think they already give you money, called a uniform allowance? It's not like you really spend all that money on uniforms.
range guy's are assholes!
Also if your still carrying a revolver your a bigger idiot. You don't care about your family, your partner or even your own life. Retire or quit!!!
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Hey fucktard those revolvers are bullet proof, more accurate and less prone to mailfunctions than your precious semi auto. 80% of those old timers with their wheel guns can out shoot p.o.'s on the street with their 15 rnd p shooters. There is a reason they still carry them. They are frikin bomb proof. I have never met an old timer who has failed the state course and I have worked the range due to my firarms training in the Military. How many more coppurs fail with their precious semi's either due to competence or mailfunctions. No matter what you just pull the trigger and those wheel guns fire. The only draw back is capacity, but if you hit your taget rather than just pull the trigger as fast as you can to go in slide lock with your 15 rnd semi auto whos the one fucked now? Get some clues about guns before you go spouting off your bullshit. Just goes to show what retards they have coming out on the street these days. Anyone who has ever shot a wheel gun will tell you they are accurate as hell and less prone to problems than your precious semi auto that will probably mailfunction while you limp wrist it to cover. Also have just as close to the power if not more depending on the ammmo ran in it. I have also seen those who are proficient with their revolver do a quicker reload than those with their mags. Also after training for 20 odd years with a revolver by the time they got the training, which they never would, as they would have to go through the academy again in order to actually make the switch over to a semi-auto and be as proficient as they are with their revolver they would be retired. Get a frikin clue before you go and start the bullshit coming out of your mouth. I think walmart is having a sale on hair gel bettter hurry before its all gone.
I will run into a gunfight with an old timer hand his 357 anyday.
10yr Sgt with a Glock
You miss the point, every time we allow the city or the dept. to change the way we have to do things and not challenge them, we lose. We can’t allow things to be changed by every whim or new boss. If they want to change the rules of the game, great, sit down and bargain just like the contract says. Can’t you guys see this? You’re so quick to whine and point the finger at someone else. You young bucks have to learn we’ve had to fight for every thing you quickly trash. This isn’t about revolvers or automatics; it’s about protecting all of our rights, hard fought for rights. Dry your eyes!
We have guns? Who needs them anyway?
I shoot at least every other month. Twice I have been at the Academy range, and asked about my 100 rounds and was told that they did not have them to give out. I won't mention dates or times so not to jam anyone up, but any range guys care to comment.
To 12/03/2007 10:23:00P.M.
Some range people are assholes, but every unit on this job has its share of assholes, good people, and people somewhere in between.
Most range people, once they see you are serious about practicing and wanting to improve your shooting skills are usually helpful.
You can practice combat shooting skills at Laser Quest!
revolver ,semi auto , shotgun, whay ever, if you don't practice and maintain the weapon, you ain't shit. if your using the dept, not giving you ammo to practice with as as excuse then your a bigger asshole. it's your life dip shit!
Everybody read previous "Alternate Weapons Qualification", post 12/3 0910 hrs really says it all about shit being legit
Thats total BS,there is NO federal law requiring an integral lock. Smith&Wesson did this on their own when they redesigned their lock work to their revolver line(1999).
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ALL makes of revolvers have the lock. They just have them in different places.
12/04/2007 12:07:00 AM
Hey fucktard those revolvers are bullet proof, more accurate and less prone to mailfunctions than your precious semi auto.
"No matter what you just pull the trigger and those wheel guns fire."
Sorry,but you are not a competant firearms instructor.While I love revolvers and started with one,the semi-auto service pistol has it all over the wheel gun.
Ever have no powder ammo in a wheel gun and have it back the primer out,jamming the weapon,I have.
Ever have a squib load where the bullet gets lodged between the cylinder and forcing cone??I have and it jams the weapon.
Ever get bad ammo with a high primer and you forget to check it and also forget to do a cylinder rotation check.The cylinder binds up,Ive seen it.
Revolvers while great guns,have seen their day as frontline duty guns.
The semi-auto service pistol will experience stoppages that can be cleared by the operator in seconds..Try removing a stuck bullet in your Model 10.
Some people get $300hr as an expert witness,some people do not.
The weapon the Dept considers to be my "primary" is a mere sidearm
My actual Primary weapon is my AR-15.
ranges are open from 0500 until 2100 hrs monday thru friday. Feel free to call ahead if no class is going on, then you can shoot. While your down there ask the 'range guys' to see the practice sign in log and you'll see you guys don't practice.I was just there at area 5 range and they allowed me to shoot after the striker class was done. "kenny' was very helpful in helping me practice for the swat tryout. I supplied my own ammo and they helped me shoot. Also, it's not the gun, it's the asshole pulling the trigger,so revolver or semi, it only matters if you kill the guy before they kill you. "Range guys' keep up the good work! The CPD is KILLING the bad guys in record numbers so something is working.
OUTLYING RANGES ARE OPEN 0600-2100 DAILY. AREA 1 IS PRIMARILY DEDICATED TO MEDICAL SHOOTERS AND THE 7 HOUR INTENSIVE PROGRAM (FOR PEOPLE WHO FAILED QUALIFICATION). AREAS 2 AND 5 ARE TASKED PRIMARILY WITH THE STRIKER-FIRED TRANSITION COURSE. AREA 3 IS TASKED WITH ALTERNATE / AUXILLARY QUALIFICATIONS. AREA 4 IS A SWAT RANGE AND IS NOT OPEN TO REGULAR OFFICERS. THE ACADEMY IS TASKED WITH RECRUIT TRAINING DURING THE WEEK, BUT IS OPEN FOR OPEN SHOOTING SATURDAYS 0800-1600.
WEDNESDAYS MOST OF THE OUTLYING RANGES ARE WORKING ON THE SHOTGUN PROGRAM OFF SITE AND THE RANGE IS SOMETIMES CLOSED. THE ACADEMY RANGE IS MAKING PLANS TO REOPEN ON MIDNIGHTS FOR THE FIRST SIX MONTHS OF THE YEAR, STARTING IN JAN.
IF YOU ARE HAVING PROBLEMS GETTING RANGE TIME - TRY TALKING TO THE RANGE STAFF - WE USUALLY CAN FIT YOU IN BETWEEN CLASSES OR WILL LET YOU KNOW WHERE AND WHEN WE ARE AVAILABLE. TALK TO PEOPLE! THAT'S HOW THINGS GET DONE. AS FAR AS YOUR PRACTICE AMMO - WE'LL GIVE IT TO YOU IF WE HAVE IT - WE DON'T ALWAYS HAVE IT... AND YES, YOU HAVE TO USE IT ONSITE - NO EXCEPTIONS. WE ARE GENERALLY A LITTLE BUSY, SORRY WE CAN'T BE AT YOUR BECK AND CALL AND STOP CLASS TO RUN TO THE PHONE EVERYTIME IT RINGS.....
Sorry,but you are not a competant firearms instructor.While I love revolvers and started with one,the semi-auto service pistol has it all over the wheel gun.
Ever have no powder ammo in a wheel gun and have it back the primer out,jamming the weapon,I have.
Ever have a squib load where the bullet gets lodged between the cylinder and forcing cone??I have and it jams the weapon.
Ever get bad ammo with a high primer and you forget to check it and also forget to do a cylinder rotation check.The cylinder binds up,Ive seen it.
Revolvers while great guns,have seen their day as frontline duty guns.
___________________________________
Never once said it should still be the primary front line gun. How many of those squibs and primer probs have you experienced in the last 5yrs? Ammo mfg's have come along way. Problems with ammo and mailfunctions happen twice as much with semi-auto's than revolvers.
Ever had a kaboom in your semi auto? I have
Ever had a double feed in which tyhe round couldn't be ejected by the extractor? YUP
Ever had a heavy load expand the casing and not have it ejected by the extractor? Yup
Ever had a semi auto blow a sping/have the slide freeze up/ magazine have feeding issues?
Your shameless attemt to obscure the real facts may have been believed by other who don't REALLY KNOW. You have your facts backwards there Mr Range Professional. Look anywhere and take it from someone who has been there and done that.... FACT IS WHEEL GUNS ARE MORE ACCURATE AND LESS PRONE TO MAILFUNCTIONS PERIOD!
Problems with primers and round size along with the rechambering of the same round several times are more common with the new semi pistols. I have seen more kabooms with semi-autos in the past 3yrs than with wheel guns in my whole life. If you ain't checking your ammo before you load it anyways your a fool. You should inspect every duty round before you load it. Yould should also dump a round after it has been rechambered 6 times setback is a mutha that almost noone ever thinks about. Though not as big of a problem on the 9mm as those 45cal which both are less than the 40.cal....these new 40cals tell a different story. YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT! So take the time to "check yo shit"
While I still agree that the semi auto has advantages(why I carry one and never would ever think of carrying a revolver for duty) NEVER ONCE SAID THAT..........the revovler though an old design isn't obsolete nor shoud it be like this 2yr wonder thinks. It's very difficult to un-train and retrain somone in 2days let alone a yr. Old timers with that wheel gun would be at a severe disadvantage if forced to get a semi-auto on their own with the minimal dept regulated training. More unsafe and more deadly than any of them carrying the revolvers they do.
Go to any roll call in the city and randomly insect 3 weapons at that roll call. Weather it's a semi auto or revolver I 'l bet those weapons havn't been cleaned or fired since last qualification. Mutiply that number by 25 and you have 75 guns that are in need of work and are being carried by a lazy dog ass.
Yould should also dump a round after it has been rechambered 6 times setback is a mutha that almost noone ever thinks about. Though not as big of a problem on the 9mm as those 45cal which both are less than the 40.cal....these new 40cals tell a different story. YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT! So take the time to "check yo shit"
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What he said. It now appears that the Kabooms associated with .40 handguns is primarily an ammunition problem that occurs when the round is pushed into the case, resulting in very high pressures in the chamber.
The suggestion not to repeatedly cycle the same cartridge is a good one.
Many shooters tend to recycle the one round to the top of the magazine just because it is easier to reload this way after unloading. Another reason not to repeatedly load and unload firearms.
To the so-called revolver expert,just stop. My revolver has never jammed. Use the proper ammo and inspect all ammo used. Remember,it's the hits that count,not the number of shots fired. And always keep your weapon clean!!!!
I agree the ranges should be open 24/7. The reason they never will is very simple, clout babies can't work week ends and can't work midnights.
With the way CPD operates it would take 2 years for everyone to qualify twice a year.
Why are range guy's such jags? They have little street time, Their work hours and days off are the best in the department. Yet they are always pissed and are on an ego trip.
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