Alternate Weapon Qualifications
From a reader (we're going to summarize so as to protect analysis of their writing style in efforts to unmask them):
- Under the old order, if your gun was of the same maker, caliber and firing system, you didn't have to qualify with each gun (.38 S&W carriers didn't have to shoot both the 4" barrel and 2" barrel guns)
- Under the new order, anything you carry has to be qualified with annually for legal and safety reasons.
- According to our reader, the FOP Board has announced an intention to fight this provision.
The reader is of the opinion that this is a waste of FOP resources. We'd tend to agree in principle. If you carry it, you ought to be able to demonstrate proficiency in the use of the weapon at least once a year. And our reader makes the point that the secondary weapon is (by definition) an OPTIONAL piece of equipment, not required by the City or the Department.
Besides, if you killed someone with the backup weapon, would you really want to have to testify that you have never qualified with it solely on the basis it was of a similar construction as your primary weapon? A smart plaintiff lawyer could make that look really bad. Readers?
Besides, if you killed someone with the backup weapon, would you really want to have to testify that you have never qualified with it solely on the basis it was of a similar construction as your primary weapon? A smart plaintiff lawyer could make that look really bad. Readers?
Labels: department issues, gun issues
posted by SCC at 12:05 AM
62 Comments:
So if I qualify with my new .45, the dept will provide me with a new box of .45 acp duty ammo after I qualify?
If not, I aint qualifying!
Qualifications should really be done more than once a year. There are people working inside who have never really shot their weapon (snub-nose) but carry it anyways. We should shoot at least quarterly if not monthly.
Here's what the consensus is: If you carry a 6 shot .38 and qualify - you're qualified on all 6 shot .38s. You qualify with a 5 shot snub - then you're qualified on tat gun. Qualify with a DAO Sig - you can carry any DAO Sig in any caliber. Qualified to carry a gun is just that - you should bequlaified on the type and function of the gun, not the individual gun. Some cops have a 15 shot 9mm and the same make 9 shot 9mm for off duty. They shouldn't have to qualify with each gun. For anyone who knows firearms, the dept.'s rational is good (there's a distinct difference from a full size .38 and a 5 shot snub)and goofy (there's no diference between a full size 15 shot 9mm and a slightly shorter barrel 9 shot 9mm of the same make.
I bought my small sig 9mm because then I would not need to qualify with it. My technique is the same for both my larger 9mm sig and my small one. Maybe I would have bought a sig 45 if I knew the dept was going to change the rules. At least give me the duty ammmo to qualify and carry afterwards.
I think that more than anything else, they want to be sure that each gun actually works. Maybe you shoot the whole course with your main gun, then shoot a brief course of fire with every other gun. How many guns out there have bent or worn parts. This would be a good thing.
Stay Safe and Shoot Straight.
Do yo think the new sup knows how few exempt members actually qualify?
I believe members of the Sheriff's department, all three branches - court services, corrections and police - have had to do this for years.
It's a pain in the ass, but I don't have any problem with it....provided the city provides ammo!
Also, it would be nice to be able to carry other weapons, I.E. small caliber automatics, provided you can show proficiency with those.
Doubt the latter will ever happen in my lifetime....and that's real.
The reader is of the opinion that this is a waste of FOP resources. We'd tend to agree in principle. If you carry it, you ought to be able to demonstrate proficiency in the use of the weapon at least once a year.
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Agreed. Besides, the more you shoot the better you get!
A waste of what resources?
Anyone who's ever handled a firearm, of any type, knows that each individual weapon has it's own individual quirks about it.
Makes sense that, just as you practice with the weapon, or weapons, you intend to stake your life on, you should qualify on that same, specific weapon, or weapons.
And the liability issues would tilt in your favor, as, with a verifiable record of proficiency with the specific weapon carried, less weight would be given to charges of an irresponsible or incompetent misuse of same.
Besides, what active duty officer wouldn't want to not only BE proficient with his or her duty weapon, but have a record of PROVEN proficiency?
Big deal!!! If you carry it, take the 5 minutes to qualify on it. If it's to hard for you than don't carry it. Wow that was easy, I should've been the next supt. Of all the problems facing the dept. this is what the FOP wants to fight about???? What a fucking joke!!! Goodbye donohue and the rest of the citywide schmoes.
Besides, if you killed someone with the backup weapon, would you really want to have to testify that you have never qualified with it solely on the basis it was of a similar construction as your primary weapon?
I agree.
Can I qualify with an AK-47 then?
The order came out in July. As I understand it the reason behind the qualifing is to bring the department in line with state quidelines.
I WOULD HATE TO QUALIFY WITH ALL MY GUNS, BUT THE LAWYERS WILL SCORE POINTS WITH THE JURIES. SCREW IT, I'M QUALIFYING WITH ALL MY GUNS.
It's my understanding that one of the reasons you must qualify with everything now is because the range people have been seeing too many cases of Officers coming in with weapons that don't work, especially with the old timers and their 5 shot snub nosed revolvers. This way you are forced to maintain your weapon and if it's broken or rusted shut you will find out on the range rather than on the street where your life is on the line. A much preferable way of doing things IMHO.
Anonymous said...
Big deal!!! If you carry it, take the 5 minutes to qualify on it. If it's to hard for you than don't carry it. Wow that was easy, I should've been the next supt. Of all the problems facing the dept. this is what the FOP wants to fight about???? What a fucking joke!!! Goodbye donohue and the rest of the citywide schmoes.
12/02/2007 03:45:00 AM
Hey, Blue Wave:
FOP doesn't want you to have to spend more of your time and provide your own ammo. If you were allowed to do all this extra shooting on city time and with their ammo, they'd have no problem with it.
This has to be the only police department in the world that makes officers supply their own ammunition so that they can be proficient in weapons that protect their citizens.
AMAZING!!
I was at the range qualifying with my guns, 2 others there had guns that would not fire,1 the cylider was rusted and would not turn, the other 9mm the slide jamed and would not shoot, the clip was taken out and the green mold from the top bullets was incredible, plus after that bullet was removed the others would not come up as the spring in the clip was jammed! The best way to be safe is make sure they all work properly! My guns all fired ok but thankfully the rangemaster noticed that 1 of my clips needed replacement! Thank You
My off duty(and on duty secondary) gun has always been a Browning .25(Baby Browning). It is always with me and has saved my life on three seperate occasions. The department does not recognize this gun. I'm still never without it and for years have had my pocket lined with rip-stop to avoid holes because of not needing a holster with a gun this small.
This is a good thing. Big deal...you have to pry open the wallet and buy a box or two of ammo. Yes, this is a qualification, but for those of you that never make it to a range, it's also practice/training for you. Again, a good thing
Listening to you all cry about qualifying is why most Police shootings end in Johnny Dick Head living.
Dont be a bitch and get out and practice the skill that may save your ass or heaven forbid I might need you to shoot the prick to save mine.
They give you $1800 in uniform, buy $30 in bullets.
Why train the non-hackers,let them get killed.
Carrying a weapon and being armed are two different things.
Anonymous said...
Can I qualify with an AK-47 then?
12/02/2007 06:42:00 AM
Yes,I am a State certified AK instructor.
Anonymous said...
It's my understanding that one of the reasons you must qualify with everything now is because the range people have been seeing too many cases of Officers coming in with weapons that don't work, especially with the old timers and their 5 shot snub nosed revolvers. This way you are forced to maintain your weapon and if it's broken or rusted shut you will find out on the range rather than on the street where your life is on the line. A much preferable way of doing things IMHO.
12/02/2007 08:13:00 AM
Well put!!This is often overlooked and the range folks should be doing at LEAST annual weapons inspections.
Anyone belly aching over qualifying or training shouldnt be on the job.If you want to be a brainless dolt,then go flip burgers a Moobies.
Qualifying once annually (at least) with every gun is a good idea, anyone vehemently opposed to this policy is just lazy. Yes, it sucks that the department screws POs on ammunition, but you are putting yourself at great risk carrying a gun off duty with which your proficiency (officially documented proficiency) is not maintained on a regular basis.
The Feds qualify 4x a year with a course that is more difficult than the annual qual course CPD currently uses. Lots of shooting from the 25 yard line, lots of quick 2 round bursts from the 15, and good rapid fire/emergency reload/rapid fire from the 7 yrd line.
The Feds also place a greater emphasis on firearms proficiency, and generally allow agents to as much practice ammo as they can get their hands on. Budgetary and financial restrictions abound in every law enforcement agency, and the Feds are no different. However, the Feds appear to value firearms proficiency (from a budgetary standpoint) higher than CPD currently does.
Maybe the new Sup can get the firearms/training/budget situation squared away so that CPD can enjoy the benefits of increased proficiency across the board. I would also look for him to get the SWAT team to what we all hope it to be. Say or believe what you want to about him, but he was good to his SWAT guys in Philly.
I recently started shooting a Glock 17 and after a couple of thousand rounds I've become pretty good with it. For instance, I can consistanly keep a single ragged hole in the middle of the target at 21 feet. Just last week a friend of mine handed me his Glock 19 to try out. These two guns are very similar to the point some people would say they are identical. But even shooting that Glock 19, I did maintain a single ragged hole at 21 feet, but I had a couple of flyers that I could not explain. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a different gun even if they were nearly the same until I've shot it enough to become confident in it.
Good Lord. It's a gun. If I qualify with a big ole 45, odds are I can handle my 9mm. Why waste time and ammo, and put ME in the trick bag because I REFUSE to waste my time? I'll take time for a good shoot with my REGISTERED secondary weapon. They can take qualifications and sit on em. What, is there some clout baby at the range who stands to make some OT for this? Why the change?
I should be able to show up with a 50 cal desert eagle, demonstrate that I can clean it, put it back together, handle it safely, and qualify with it. Isn't that the point of qualifications, to show that you are qualified to carry a particular firearm? So who is to say that I am not qualified to carry a 50 cal?
So let me see if I have this straight. The average copper does not practice shooting. That same average copper carries a gun most of the time. To protect himself, other coppers or, when off duty, him self or his family. The department wants us to know how to use the weapon correctly, so that we might be able to stay alive and as such remain a member of the FOP. THE SAME FOP WHO SAYS THAT THIS IS A BAD IDEA? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? Is everybody at the FOP office high or something? We have shit equipment, no contract, bad retiree health benefits, a system of discipline that seems, to say the least, a bit fucked up (although I will admit that our number of fired officers is low, thanks to a combination of the FOP lawyers and a remarkably permissive police board) , and a host of other problems (oh yea-manpower) to deal with, and the FOP choose to fight weapons qualification? Will someone down there please re-set the priorities? Weapons qualification is a good thing. WAKE THE FUCK UP!
2 and out
SCC, I agree with you but why doesn't the department make it easier to qualify...hell, even practice! I'd love it if the Area ranges were open all the time & we can just stroll on in & practice.
Qualify with every weapon? Why not, its on company time. An air weight snub will not handle like a full size duty weapon. At the range I've seen PO's who can't shoot those air weights or 45's. Practice, Practice, Practice! If you can't shoot it, you can't carry it.
SCC said: Besides, if you killed someone with the backup weapon, would you really want to have to testify that you have never qualified with it solely on the basis it was of a similar construction as your primary weapon?
If deadly force is necessary do defend the POs life who gives a flying fuck if you used your primary, your auxillary, your pocketknife or your bare hands?
We should all have at least 10 guns if not more.. Then go to the range and tell 'em we want to qualify with all of them.
It would bog down the whole fucking system and make us all look like a bunch of crackpots to the new superintendent.
did everyone hear about the shooting in la a few months back where the bad guy was hit serveral times. but when the crime lab came out they found that out of the 20 odd shots that were fired 5 of them didn't even go threw the bad guys jacket. im glad i have my .45!! learn from others experience. i learn that the 9mm is crap
I agree that you should qualify, at least briefly with each weapon.
However, if the department allows a .45 ACP, or a .40 Cal. or anything else, the department should provide ammo of it.
Anonymous said...
Do yo think the new sup knows how few exempt members actually qualify?
12/02/2007 12:39:00 AM
yea then when they get a cr # or what ever they are going to do it you don't qualify, hopefully it will be a cr# because then you can bring in all the ranger person's and i mean all of them and make them be witnesses on your cr # that every exempt did actually qualified and just didn't call.
can you say false reports
I don't see what the big deal is.
You have a gun, you should be able to shoot it!
We should all practise with our weapons more anyway.
BTW stock up on Ammo while your at it!
I used to do my annual qualification with my snub because that's what I carried for a good number of years. Now I can only qualify with my service revolver, let's qualify with the gun we carry the most. If you can qualify with a snub, you can qualify with a 4". And while I am an old fart, I will bet you I can do better with my snub than a lot of newbies with their 15 shot 9mm autos.
Most would be better off throwing their snubbies at the targets. It makes for a bigger hole.
All of this talk of desk people and exempt shooting guns once a month.
Think about it. DO you really want these people running around out there with loaded guns/
Pay attention to the big picture. This is about the city making a major change in past practice without going to the bargaining units. Of course everyone agrees we should make sure our weapon functions and we know how to use it properly. If the bargaining units dont step in now the city will think they can change things anytime.
Maybe the New Supt will arm us like LAPD.. Rifles in cars.. that will piss off the make believe reverends and mope-rah!
If this is going to be necessary, how about taking care of it at the same time the service revolver or auto is qualified with, maybe with a short, 20 round course. Shoot the main primary weapon, then stay, and anyone wanting to snub qualify does it at the same time.
I agree but I can shoot. Most cant! LoL Sempre Fi
There is a major difference between a full size weapon and a snub or compact. Anyone who shoots even a few rounds can see that.
Most people carry their off-duty weapon more than their duty weapon and more often than no, any incident they get into will involve the weapon they have with them.
How often is there an accidental discharge with an off-duty gun.
You should know how to what you have with you.
Also, any weapon is a mechanical thing and can break.
Now stop being cheap cry babies and get off your tush and see if the darn thing works.
All it will cost is a little time and $20.
What is your LIFE, Home and Family worth to you?
To 12/02/2007 05:45:00 AM'
Hey brainless-if you killed someone with it you're obviously MORE qualified than the average copper. Start seeing the forest from the tree's. Putz.
WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW IS.... NOW THAT THE G-MAN IS NO LONGER A FEDERAL AGENT AND EXEMPT FROM THE GUN REGISTRATION PROCEDURE IS THE G-MAN GOING TO REGISTER THE GUN THAT HE IS GOING TO CARRY HERE IN CHICAGO???????? AND WHAT ABOUT THE CITY STICKER ON HIS AND HERS PERSONAL AUTOMOBILES.
Ok! Don't shoot your weapon. How do you know it works? Everyone gets a clothing allowance, use that to pay for your box of duty 45
. This department is a bunch of lazy cheap fucks.
Qualify with every weapon? Why not, its on company time. An air weight snub will not handle like a full size duty weapon. At the range I've seen PO's who can't shoot those air weights or 45's. Practice, Practice, Practice! If you can't shoot it, you can't carry it.
12/02/2007 12:09:00 PM
1. IT IS NOT ON COMPANY TIME
2. YOU MUST PROVIDE THE AMMO
3. YOU CAN ONLY DO ONE WEAPON AT A TIME>..
I think we should shoot more often than we do, but not just to qualify.Bullseye and combat shooting are two different things.Qualification, the way we do it, is bullseye which is great for scoring points but not much else.Combat shooting would be a better choice of training until it becomes instinctive shooting.I am a firm believer that if you can shoot a Sig,Beretta,Glock,1911 or any other pistol by any brand name,you can shoot,there's not much difference between brands.It's not the gun, it's the shooter.
Get in an off duty shooting with a gun you have not qualified with and see if JP backs you 100%,and watch the media hang you out to dry and make mary mitchell's day,so stop whining and just do it,and stop bitching about spending $20 for a box of ammo,god for bid you should spend some of your uniform allowance on ammo.
The new guy is a shooter, 1911 I belive. So I do think things will change. Practice is important just go on you tube and look up police shootings. Some are very disturbing. 2007 has the most assaults on police since the 70's.
Awe who cares I am just a two year wonder and not even the real police.....
Does anyone want to work with a partner who can't shoot? Belive me there out there.
The Keesing Bandit says---
I had an accidental discharge last night. Messy.
Now, kees me you fool!!!
If you think Jody is not smart enough to register his weapons and have the proper licensing for his automobiles, you're the one with the problem.
Give the guy a chance. Most of us peons won't be any worse off.
To 12/02/07 at 1:05-
Hey, I heard from a friend of a friend who has a friend who heard from his buddy that his cousin told him that you are an idiot. Any truth to that? Should I believe him? Let me see if I've got this right. The 9mm which is caliber of choice for Police Departments and Armies around the world doesn't work when it comes to Chicago. Is that correct? Even though ammunition companies test their rounds extensively including how they perform when shot into heavy cloth and even though they freely publish the results of those tests which BTW, show that the 9mm actually has more penetration that the .45, your going to try and tell us that a heavy jacket/clothing will stop them. Is that correct? Does this mean that I can discard that hot, heavy body armour I am mandated to wear because YOU heard that a 9mm. will not penetrate them. I think your friend was right.
Here's a good one. A few of the 012 desk crew, females, 2nd watch, call a certain "range master", female also, who used to work in 012, married to a Sgt., so they can go qualify. Qualify? What a fucking joke! This range person is putting every copper in harm's way because some of these house cats have to work the street once in a while. Who knows how long this has been going on. Passing these do nothing, no qualifying fucks and the female range joke is hopefully something the new Supt. would like to know. Sometimes change is a good thing. WTF
The 9mm round is a joke. How many times have you seen some one shot with a 9mm and the next day they are back on the corner.
Get yourself a nice heavy/fast round - 45 Auto 185 gr P + P.
Do the exempt ranks get a nod and pass? You can't tell me that our elite group of super cop boss's can shoot.
I carry a Smith .45 and don't care that I have to qualify with it. My beef is that I want to practice, but the mayor has made it so damn hard to buy ammo. At least let sworn officers living in Cook county buy ammo in Cook County. I got my 100 hundred rounds from the academy, and half of them had to be refired for them to go off. Range guy said that is was ok, that happens sometimes. Once again the city goes the cheap route and buys bargain basement ammo.
Anon 4:35,
CPD will put rifles in cars only when that evil little leprachaun prick on the fifth floor has a cousin who sells rifles.
That's why I work in the freakin' Rockies. I got more guns in the car than any CPD squad on the road.
Oh, and we have a mandatory department shoot every month. Quals four times a year and the other eight are low-light, decisional, shooting while moving, and Simunitions.
I don't know how you guys put up with that shit. I'd be ready to hang every last white shirt over how your brass handles training.
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