More "Discrimination" at CFD
- A physical abilities test the city is using to hire African-American firefighters in settlement of a race discrimination lawsuit is discriminatory against women, a suit filed Friday in U.S. District Court charges.
Godfrey et al vs. City of Chicago was filed by 20 female plaintiffs on behalf of all female applicants who recently took the test and failed.
“The city hasn’t been served yet with the lawsuit, so we cannot comment at this time,” said city Law Dept. spokesman Roderick Drew.
The women are already members of two other class-action suits.
Not to be sexist pigs and all, but if you can't drag the equipment up two or four or forty flights of stairs, how are you going to actually, you know, fight a fire? Anyone who insists there aren't any physical differences between men and women hasn't really been looking too closely.
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That isn't to say there aren't any number of women qualified to do the job. Many would probably out-perform us in various scenarios. Running, climbing come to mind. But you don't downgrade the entire testing process to accommodate people who can't do the basics. If we need help, we don't care who rescues us....as long as they can actually rescue us. Otherwise, what's the point?
Labels: fire fighters
posted by SCC at 12:01 AM
71 Comments:
BUT...ShortShanks said that putting CFD recruitment booths at all the Chuck-E-Cheese locations would result in just the candidates he wanted....
I agree with you SCC
Sexist pig!
"That isn't to say there aren't any number of women qualified to do the job. Many would probably out-perform us in various scenarios. Running, climbing come to mind."
SCC, if this too were true, why is it that there are two different standards for running in the CPD power test? One standard for men and a substandard for women. We all get paid the same, no?
Well tonight (30Oct12) I was just about run down by a F/4 P.O. leaving 023's parking garage like a bat outta hell in her personal vehicle.
It was great she let her vehicle lurch forward in some lame attempt to make me get off the sidewalk/curb cub faster.
Women drivers. I'll tell ya. No respect, no regard either. Eh.
Nothing new here. 15 years ago potential female recruits were being paid to workout @ the gym prior to entering the academy.
The Daley legacy.
I just wanted to remind everyone that there is a Daley on the ticket for a Water Reclamation position.
Please vote for him /end sarcasm
it's sad that you actually had to put the disclaimer in the thread. because people are actually that stupid.
I'm a female and totally agree. If you can't do the physical part of the job you should not be there! PERIOD!
More to come. The first physical test is a pass fail one time only test. If you fail your out! Well except the group of recent hires through lawsuits. Several have failed and been given second and third chances. In over 20 years I haven't seen anyone get a second chance at that test and many have been fired for failing. Guess what lawsuit is next?
SCC,
My wife took that power test, I mean agility test and it basically came down to the ability to follow directions. My wife simply performed the tasks given as she was told and passed. I know a few of the applicants who could not pass the agility test, and I have to say thank god! There is now way they couuld lift a victim or a fallen firefighter if they had to on their own. The issue at hand that will scfew the city is that there are no standards for what is passing or failing. Looks like the city is on the hook again.
"...said city Law Dept. spokesman Roderick Drew."
Hmm, didn't guy a used to be a spokesman for the CPD?
Connected and scamming new city job and pension or what???
The new civil servants... If you're too dumb, weak or lazy, just sue them. Whites not welcome.
"A physical abilities test the city is using to hire african americans,,," Are they trying to insinuate that the city uses a different test to hire caucasians, or hispanics, or asians, etc,?
Women became first became fire firefighters 26 years ago and had to pass all the tests just like the men. Race has nothing to do with it.
I'm a middle aged, doughy white guy. In my current physical shape I'd have problems passing the physical part.
Can I line up with my hand out and DEMAND where's mine?
Oh that's right it never works that way for people like me.
I took the first test open to women in bout 1975 or 76. I knew when I couldn't get the "dummy" up off the floor the way it was demonstrated I didn't belong on the job. No women passed that test physically! I did get the dummy up by getting under it and carrying it like a baby ... And many rounds of applause from men in the room at the time...but I knew I didn't belong and didn't want to be responsible for one person not making it out. I did have 30 awesome years with the CPD even though again they said we couldn't do the job! Love you and think each and everyone of you is awesome! Be careful and stay safe!
I think we should drop firearms qualification I. This job. It's too hard and I such at it. After all police hardly ever get into shootouts........lol
This is exactly what is destroying this once great nation. Instead of hiring the best and the smartest, companies and goverment are required to have a "diverse" workforce regardless if some of the people are incompetent, lazy, or just plain stupid.
Women first became firefighters 26 years ago and had to pass all the tests just like the men. Race has nothing to do with it.
10/30/2012 02:15:00 AM
Where have you been??? Race has everything to do with it.
Coming soon to the CFD, the "Do Nothing, Don't Touch Anything" job classification.
It would be interesting to see women create physical tests that demonstrate the SAME strength/endurance requirements, but for women's builds.
Just for example, in boating, where men use their arm strength to pull up an anchor, a slight hand adjustment can shift the origin of strength to a woman's back.
Maybe once their hired and have to respond, at each fire theyll carry a scale to make sure the unconscious victims arent overweight. And if they are, the female firefighters can file a grievance or another discrimination lawsuit.
As a dwarf of American decent, I feel that test discriminates against me. Sure I only weigh 50 pounds but so what? In fact, I should be promoted to management right away too!
here;s another lesson for those interested -
One sues when one race is either not hired or not promoted at a rate 80% of that of the "more successful" race ... the "more successful" race usually happens to be white .. but, I digress -
this might be a gender thing - just replace the word "gender" for "race" as I believe they are a class also
Now if 70 of 100 of race X are successful, meaning they get hired or promoted then that 70% is a number you have to remember here - now the next successful race must be hired/promoted via the 4/5 rule ... so if race X has a 70% rate, then what is a rate 4/5 of that that the next race must be hired at? well multiply 4/5 by that 70% rate .... SOOOOOOOO - then next race must be at 56% (80% x 70% = 56%)
where does all this horseshit come from? Well, let me first say it is not a bad idea in theory (The U.S. making an attempt to not have the black man fucked with) .... but times have changed, this is no longer the 1870's.
Worse, the result is the dumbing down process so employers can get a number of minorities without having to even deal with the 4/5 rule
THIS IS WHY THE CITY WANTED TO SCRAP THE ENTRANCE TEST FOR THE CPD... though they sure as fuck are not going to tell you that
tragedy .... fucking tragedy.
There's more to it - employer CAN JUSTIFY "violating" the 4/5 rule if he can show that test is so damned important that it doesn;t matter than one race is excluded - like being a doctor
what the female weakling crybaby race-hustlers are going to try to/ have to show is that that physical test IS NOT IMPORTANT to becoming a firefighter...
That's a brief primer of the Civil Rights Act of 1965/1991 Title VII ...
Rand Paul voiced opoosition to the CRA and got shit, remember?
That's what is going on here ...
Is that the same test that a judge ruled that it discriminated against whites????
All you city employees and city employee wannabes do is complain, complain, complain or sue.
Waaaaaa! Strength reqirements. Agility requirements. Residency requirements.
I met and passed all of my requirements to be your mayor. So STFU and go back to work.
Lets face it, firefighters need to perform certain pyhsical tasks. If they can't do those tasks, peoples lives are placed in jeopardy. If standards are lowered, the city will be required to hire firefighters (men and women) who are incapable of performing the physical tasks associated with the job, and that will endager the lives of all citizens.
Am I getting ripped off because I can pass all the exams without any modifications? Also, am I getting ripped off because I can perform the job while others need to be taken care of? (We all get paid the same.)
When I came on CPD 30 years ago there was no POWER test that had to be passed prior to hiring. What we had was an obstacle course with the dreaded six foot wall. In order to pass the academy you had to get over the wall...after about eight or ten weeks. The first week of the academy they ran us through the course. In my home room of about 30-35 PPOs, 10-12 of whom were women, a couple of guys failed and all the women except one failed to get over the wall. For most any other police agency in the country those people would never have been hired. Instead they had the breakfast club to get them into shape, something those people should have done on their own prior to hiring. On todays POWER test the standards that a 21 YOA female must meet are the same as for a 50 YOA male. Equal pay, unequal playing field. Celebrate diversity.
this is just going to cause more problems for the department. but like everything else we dont want to offend their feelings. and they will have to make special fixtures for them. pc is the lowering of standards for the unqualified. this will come back to haunt them.
Can we, the taxpayers, sue because they are putting our lives in danger by passing people that aren't qualified? I am being serious.
I can only hope these activist judges get the under qualified firemen and police officers on thier jobs if they need help.
As officers and firmen, our lives are being put at risk by putting un-qualiified people on the job. Tax payers, you are getting the short end again.
rumor is that the all black firefighter class is in school for extra weeks because most unable to pass State Test or EMT training .
More discrimination against the women , whites and hispanics that failed the entrance exam .
Never heard of a police or fire recruit class in the academy for Extra weeks to be spoon fed material to pass a test.
not sure if it's true .
They did the same with the POWER test. Look at what the women have to do compared to the men. Also in the past you had to scale over a 6ft wall. Took it out of the test because a lot of women couldn't get over.
well said SCC. if "one" is not smart enough then don't make the test easier(also merit promotions). if "one" can not handle the minimum physical requirements then don't take the test in the first place. this is partly what's wrong with our world. people who have no morals and who are willing to always try to take the easy way out rather than earning something. the requirements are there for everyone and anyone and if "one" can not accomplish the simplest of requirements then the job is not for "you"! go sit in an office you dumb lazy fucks! that is not racist or sexist at all.
Rampant racism and discrimination!!! where are the mandatory hires of deaf lesbian Eskimo midgets? I bet there is not a single on on the Chicago fire dept or police rolls...racist white scum!!
there has to be "baseline"
i don't think anyone here would argue
that.the issue it seems to be where and what and how to make a baseline that is an even playing field for all
yes you do have to be able to lug a 4"diameter hose up a a couple of flights of stairs or have to lug a 200lb person lets face it even some of the youngest and healthyest
people would have some problem with that
remeber it's 200 lb "dead" weight
big difference plus all your gear
that too has to be considered
10/30/2012 03:26:00 AM
03.26.....spoken as a true professional. If you know you can't do the job, why would anyone want to endanger other firefighters or the public. Instead lawyers try and get them what they couldn't earn themselves. What a screwed up system we have.
It never ends.....
When Women were first allowed to take the CFD test they could not pass the agility test, So they Sued and came up with 2 tests this was 1982.
Hire them directly into supervisory/command spots
I am a woman and all in favor of equal opportunity, but IF it ever comes down to MY KIDS needing to be lugged down a flight of stairs or out a window & carried down a ladder, I want the person ABLE TO DO IT! For all those screaming Womens Lib, let's see what they say when it is their kids/old parents who are dropped!
Anonymous said...SCC, if this too were true, why is it that there are two different standards for running in the CPD power test? One standard for men and a substandard for women. We all get paid the same, no?
There are different standards because the POWER test is based on percentiles. The standard for passing is based on the physical performance that approximates the 40th percentile of men and women of each age group.
Anonymous said...
The new civil servants... If you're too dumb, weak or lazy, just sue them. Whites not welcome.
10/30/2012 02:14:00 AM
Whites not welcome eh? Funny, I'm a civil servant and come from a family of them and I have yet to work at a level of government in this county where whites weren't welcome. There are a few that exist out there but not even close to those where non whites aren't welcome. Keep on pretending like Cook County and the city were all bastions of efficiency and moral fiber before blacks were on the payroll. Yeah right.
Anonymous said...
I'm a middle aged, doughy white guy. In my current physical shape I'd have problems passing the physical part.
Can I line up with my hand out and DEMAND where's mine?
Oh that's right it never works that way for people like me.
10/30/2012 03:16:00 AM
False. Unless you want to tell me that unqualified, white, middle aged doughy guys that are related to Daley and Burke and the whole lot of them don't get handouts...ok buddy. But you are right, they don't get to make demands, they just do what the party tells them and wait for their pie in the sky.
Stop playing victim. At some point in time this group is going to have to step up and be treated like everyone else. They are going to have to earn their jobs.
Some day Junkies will Sue for Failing the Drug Test.
the criterion for judging something discriminatory rests in straight percentages -- do people in category X and people in category Y pass at the same rates? If X-people pass less than Y-people, then the test is presumed discriminatory; explanations barely make it into the equation (they have a better shot with physical than written tests, but that shot is still very small). This is how entrance exams are frequently found to be racist. Now, this will probably never matter with certain classes; eg, being overweight is not a protected class. However, with other classes it matters very much; specifically, race and gender. Because of this, physical exams in particular will face a difficult future. I would call it a near certainty that physical exams will either disappear or be watered down to un-failable levels within the lifetime of people entering the service now for the simple reason that nigh any physical test will fail more women than men (bear in mind, as the test gets easier so more women pass, it also gets easier for men, so that their success rate will rapidly approach 100%, which, oddly enough, may make the test seem even more discriminatory, as all men pass, but not all women do; so, simply making them easier may not solve the problem ... hence my suspicion that they will will disappear entirely or, essentially, not be failable for anyone).
If you can't carry a smoke-inhalation victim, if you can't lift and rescue your fellow firefighter, if you can't control a full-pressure fire hose, you can't DO the job. Therefore, you don't GET the job. And no lawsuit entitles you to the job.
And, you lawsuit-wielding ladies, I'm female CPD and I was the first recruit in my class over the 'wall'.
If they want equal treatment for an equal job, why not have the test the same?
I'm going to file suit against the Chicago Bears.
I'm not strong, big, or fast but I want to play Linebacker.
Who cares if I'm not qualified?
Give me the job or give me millions in damages.
To 10/30/2012 08:48:00 AM: But it wasn't a test! You sure make it sound like these recruits were real loosers. This really sounds like my class but it was a little under 30 years. I don't quite get your point, because it wasn't a requirement for hiring. Oh wait I get your point! I was a 32 year old female with some athletic ability. That still didn't mean I knew how to go over a 6 foot wooden wall. So! I corrected this problem asap. If it is my class, the one girl that made it over the wall was one of the most athletic girls I ever saw. I don't think that was her first time running an obstacle course. As for breakfast club, myself, males and females, stayed at the gym and practiced on our own, every night, with each other not with instructors, helping each other. COMMERADERIE! When the real next obstacle course test came, I think we all made it, over the wall much ahead of schedule. Remember the wall was more of a psychological game. You had to make it for your final physical test with your mile and 1/2 run. I don't think these are very fair comparisons. Kudos to my classmates for their perseverance.
God Bless 85-4
Where have you been??? Race has everything to do with it.
10/30/2012 06:21:00 AM
this comment was meant for the 'You Go Chalkie' article.
Anonymous said...
The new civil servants... If you're too dumb, weak or lazy, just sue them. Whites not welcome.
10/30/2012 02:14:00 AM
Whites not welcome eh? Funny, I'm a civil servant and come from a family of them and I have yet to work at a level of government in this county where whites weren't welcome. There are a few that exist out there but not even close to those where non whites aren't welcome. Keep on pretending like Cook County and the city were all bastions of efficiency and moral fiber before blacks were on the payroll. Yeah right.
10/30/2012 12:56:00 PM
the first comment is referring to the lawyers and the lawsuit.
the second comment is, at best, by a 'minority minded' racist.
and an obamanation voter, no doubt.
I'm going to file suit against the Chicago Bears.
I'm not strong, big, or fast but I want to play Linebacker.
Who cares if I'm not qualified?
Give me the job or give me millions in damages.
10/30/2012 03:33:00 PM
uh, so they call your bluff, 'give' you the job and then what?
are you really going to show up, suit up, and participate in even the first practice scrimmage?
I'm 60 years old, 280 pounds, going bald, have bad feet, hip and knee replacements, a bad eye, and some of my teeth. If Victoria's Secret refuses to hire me as a runway model, I'm suing!
I totally agree. I'm female CPD and my son is a Recon Marine. I seriously doubt that unless a female is as fit as an Olympic athlete, there's no way a woman could get through that training. Or at least 99.999% of them couldn't. Same with the firefighter strength requirements. And generally, if a female CAN pass the test, it's because she's worked her ass off to build up to it--once she's hired, unless she keeps it up, she's going to lose it.
Athletics, for instance a marathon, is split into male/female winners. A female can win first place in a marathon with a higher time than the 50th male finisher.
The firefighters' job isn't a race. The equipment doesn't make itself lighter for a female, nor do bodies. In firefighting, there is NO substitute for strength...not brains, not tactics, not firepower not aim. I don't want to see a 5'6" female at the top of the ladder when I'm on the 5th floor of a burning building (yes, I intended it--5th floor), who isn't fit to be there.
Call me a female chauvinist pig. I don't care. It's reality. Through means of evolution, men are stronger than women--scientifically factual due to different muscle fibers and numerous other factors. Men don't have a uterus and can't bear children. Women aren't as strong as men. Why is that so hard for people to accept?
Seriously, would it be fair for a woman to carry a 10 lb. axe and a man to carry a 50 lb. sledgehammer and be considered to have the same strength?
Anonymous said...
This is exactly what is destroying this once great nation. Instead of hiring the best and the smartest, companies and goverment are required to have a "diverse" workforce regardless if some of the people are incompetent, lazy, or just plain stupid.
10/30/2012 05:29:00 AM
OMG, you hit the nail on the head.
Kind of like what's going on at the top of the CPD, except it's not totally based on 'diversity'--it's mainly clout.
Anonymous said...
I took the first test open to women in bout 1975 or 76. I knew when I couldn't get the "dummy" up off the floor the way it was demonstrated I didn't belong on the job. No women passed that test physically! I did get the dummy up by getting under it and carrying it like a baby ... And many rounds of applause from men in the room at the time...but I knew I didn't belong and didn't want to be responsible for one person not making it out. I did have 30 awesome years with the CPD even though again they said we couldn't do the job! Love you and think each and everyone of you is awesome! Be careful and stay safe!
10/30/2012 03:26:00 AM
I admire you. I feel exactly the same way. And those who would actually admit what you did (knew you didn't belong in that job), and did what you did (decline it), are few and far between. It's very admirable. I wish I knew you! Who knows, maybe we've worked together. Hope you are enjoying your retirement!
In my home room of about 30-35 PPOs, 10-12 of whom were women, a couple of guys failed and all the women except one failed to get over the wall.
-----------------
Well, in today's climate, I think they should just walk each candidate up to the 6' wall and ask them: "If one shithead with a gun was chasing another shithead (who you locked up the week before with a gun) and they went over that wall, what would you do?
a) chase them over the wall
b) shoot through the wall
c) get back in the squad car and drive the long way around the wall
d) 19-Paul the job and come clear and wait for the call of man shot and then respond
--and just a question--how many bad guys did you chase over 6' walls in 30 years? If any, how many in your first 5 years? How many in your last 5 years?
The police dept. is different from the fire dept. I'm a female, and I've worked with partners who WANTED, ITCHED, to get into physical fights with people. I've prevented a lot of fights on this job--and when I had to I was in there fighting too. I am fully aware my punches may not have hurt a bad guy as much as a 6'2 copper's would, but I guarantee you they hurt more than some 6'2 chicken shit male copper who stood there wondering what to do or was too chicken shit to get in there.
And not to be a bitch, but when I came on the job about 15 years ago, I was running 6 miles a day minimum---my long days were 8-10 miles. I could chase a guy as far as it took and sound like I was a DJ on the radio until cars got there. Could you run like that?
Everything is relative. On the police dept. you have the option of using the strengths you have....and different tools/options available. You can't reason with a fire.
If you don't realize that by now, that women can be good police officers, then you're less advanced than some of the dinosaurs I worked with who actually saw the benefits of a female partner, regardless if they can get over a 6' wall.
Anonymous said...
Some day Junkies will Sue for Failing the Drug Test.
10/30/2012 01:38:00 PM
OMG, a Thai noodle just came out my nose!
Anonymous said...
This is exactly what is destroying this once great nation. Instead of hiring the best and the smartest, companies and goverment are required to have a "diverse" workforce regardless if some of the people are incompetent, lazy, or just plain stupid.
10/30/2012 05:29:00 AM
Ring ring......we got somebody someone sent on da line. The all Irishmen boss teams were really great doncha think? No one else need apply.
I am a women .. and there are many jobs I would like to have done in my life but I realize that there are jobs my being a women would put not just myself but others in harms way.. I think more of myself and others to SUE because I was unable to do the job without the qualifications being changed for me..I am embarrassed that there are those that feel THEY are so special things should be changed for them.. cause THEY WANT to be something they do not have the physical statue for..It's a shame that people tell their kids they can be ANYTHING they want as long as the rules get changed for them
"And not to be a bitch, but when I came on the job about 15 years ago, I was running 6 miles a day minimum---my long days were 8-10 miles. I could chase a guy as far as it took and sound like I was a DJ on the radio until cars got there. Could you run like that?"
I let Chevy do my running. If you have to preface a statement, it's a sure bet your a tuff guy braggart. One guess, it was along 8 riding next to you.
Not a cop. Ex military. In order to get promoted everyone took the same exams and had access to the same study materials. Period. No extra points, just the exam. Mae it simple.
I believe it. I took the test in the 80's.Passed it.Was called for the power test years later.I was in great shape, working out 4-5 days a week.CFD sent me a letter several weeks later,saying I had failed. CFD refused to tell me what portion of the test I failed. There was nothing hard about that test.
I am the one who wrote about the wall and the failure of most women to scale that wall. The two female officers who responded missed the point. My point was that the wall was the standard at the time. Not standard for hiring as there were no physical strength or agility tests for hiring back then. The standard was to scale the wall after so many weeks to get your star. I came on CPD in 1982, had been on a suburban PD before that and had taken many police tests over the previous few years. Every department I tested for had physical standards which had to be passed before moving on to the next phase of testing. Some had swimming tests or ladders to climb or heavy weights to carry. The point is is that standards existed elsewhere and were adhered to. The same can't be said for the CPD, we had no standards. Should the six foot wall have been a standard? I don't think so. But that was the standard at the time and I don't think it was an unreasonable standard. Perhaps I view it differently because having been in the infantry, obstacle courses were not new to me. How many times did I have to climb a six foot wall? Does a chain-link fence count? Quite a few actually, wouldn't even hazard a guess. In my last five years? Maybe two. On my last POWER test, at age 56, I still did the run in less than 13 minutes. I hold myself to higher standards, not complain about the existence of standards. I will, however, complain about the lack or laxity of standards. And I have worked with female officers. Many were great coppers. Like a great many male officers, however, many were not.
SCC: Sorry for the long post.
This city has been and continues to be run by pumpkinheads.One of the worlds greatest cities run by so many idiots, it's mindbending.Thank GOD for the real people that bust their ass every day. DO NOT hire some punkass kid/adult just to please the revrands and mediea.All clout jobs given to stupid moronic insipid boobs who cannot read or write .All you have to do is look at the airport for starters,you would not believe who runs it general.Start with security for a real eye opener. GOD help us!!!
Explain to me how a test or physical fitness requirement is racist? I am sick to death with all this fucking racial bullshit. Here's an idea, an old one but a good one. The best person for the job, period. Chicago is lost. Leave it for the entitlement bunch, get me the hell out of this state. Let them have it all and run it all, from top to bottom. See how long it takes before it degenerates into the African dicatorship scenarios.
Nothing like a 50 year old rookie fireman struggling to climb a ladder or drag a 100 pound water hose or carry a person to safety. The city and it residents would have been better off paying these gentlemen a settlement and not putting citi...zens and their co-workers lives at risk. One can imagine all the workers comps claims to be filed from strained necks and backs from these 50 year old rookies.
As a black person, it is insulting to think the mayor has done right by these men. Is Rahm going to issue an edict to all the firehouses to welcome these men with open arms ?
A 009th District Sgt kicked CFD truck 129 from the scene of a shooting at 50th Wolcott Wednesday night for blocking Wolcott for police vehicles to arrive. Officers had to run nearly a block to the crime scene they knew the CFD intentionally blocked with thier truck. Paramedics had already pronounced the victim but out "bravest" felt they didn"t need to move the rig even after the police told them that they needed to move police vehicles closer to the scene. Tey are starting thier shit again. Always remember what their heavy as shit Lt did to one of our marine unit guys. Fuck them...
The City needs to get rid of its quotas. Aff Action is outdated and discriminatory. If you can't pass the entrance exam you don't get in. That goes for whites, blacks. Men, women etc. The City is taking out loans to pay off the lawsuit that the City lost...years and years later. How in the hell can we pay this off? Millions of dollars. So many people are sick of quotas. This includes the Citys contracting requirements.
And the CFD Commissioner says he will hire more minorities and women but that probably won't happen. So now CFD will be down hundreds of employees, the City will be out millions and we are no better off.
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