Good Question
Missed this one earlier last week, but it's a fair question:
- The lawyer for the Chicago police officer charged with fatally shooting 17-year-old Laquan McDonald fired his first legal salvo at the prosecution case, asking Cook County prosecutors Thursday to specify how his client acted "without legal authority" when he shot McDonald 16 times.
In the filing, attorney Daniel Herbert noted that the law gave Officer Jason Van Dyke "the authority to use force, including deadly force, in situations including but not limited to making an arrest and preventing escape."
Herbert also asked prosecutors in the filing to identify "the particular shot or shots which killed Laquan McDonald."
As we understand it, this could make the First Degree murder charge to be invalid, something legal experts, lawyers and court watchers have said is probable, given the lack of premeditation.
This gives rise to the very real possibility we're seeing a Chicago version of Baltimore - overcharge to a political end to defuse a heated situation on the streets.
Chicago also risks a Baltimore-like backlash.
This gives rise to the very real possibility we're seeing a Chicago version of Baltimore - overcharge to a political end to defuse a heated situation on the streets.
Chicago also risks a Baltimore-like backlash.
Labels: general, info for the police
posted by SCC at 12:03 AM
48 Comments:
Both takes 1st degree murder off the table.
I hate to say it, but FUCK THE CITY, let it burn.
Sometimes a really sharp lawyer is a Godsend.
The officer will not spend a day in prison, the same as Dante Servin. No judge or jury in Chicago will ever convict a cop of anything especially considering the amount of violence the city is going through right now.
Dan is simply employing Rule #4 - Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules, from Saul Alinsky's 'Rules for Radicals'. In this case it is the ILCS.
Defense - Your Honor can the State tell us all which bullet out of the 16 fired by the defendant caused the death of Mr. McDonald?
State - Your Honor it was the bullet that struck Mr. McDonald in the heart.
Defense - Your Honor can the State say with any specificity which bullet out of the 16 fired by my client struck Mr. McDonald's heart? Was it the first bullet, the seventh bullet, or the sixteenth bullet?
Judge - State?
State - No your Honor.
Is there even anything left to burn in the ghetto ?
Oh yeah , urban pioneers .
Ya all are about to believe in guns .
No kidding SCC... We saw this coming from a mile away and long time ago. The elements are just not there for a murder one beef, they never were. How Rham convinced Anita to approve the charge to pacify the bloodthirst of the misguided and uniformed masses is beyond me. It would be only fair to expect these people to ethically serve the public without the political circus theatrics. But that was asking too much. Gary stood by and was inactive to do the right thing too whether he knew he and Anita were following an egotistical madman over the cliff sans parachutes or not. Of Course the ringleader always has an out, unfortunately for them they didn't.
Now the question is when this charge gets shot down, because it will even though this goof lost his shit he was still in the performance of his duties, what will happen to this city. All hell is gonna break loose. Hello Balitmore
The taxpayers needs to take up torches and axes and head over to rahm's compound and demand his head on a stake! Let that be ground zero for the riots!!
This will be an interesting case, just like a mysterious disease ravaging a loved one is interesting to a doctor.
I want the truth to come out, ALL of it! The good, the bad, and the ugly.
It will be interesting when the lawyer calls all the command staff in for them to testify why the claimed the shooting was justified.
"Chicago also risks a Baltimore-like backlash."
What do you mean?
Murders are already way up in Chicago, just like Baltimore.
The Police are almost as demoralized.
How many officers are bailing out?
(We already know the big white shirted rats are fleeing one step ahead of the investigators)
You know the DOJ is going to take over, it is just a matter of getting enough documented BS in their investigation.
About the only thing that has not happened is an incompetent, progressive political hack has not taken over the States Attorney Office. You do not have a Marilyn Mosby YET. But isn't there an election coming up soon?
What can you do to stop it?
I don't know, just keep voting Democrat and hope for the best!
Yes, Keep Voting Democrat! They are BLM Approved!
I've been waiting for this move but Why doesn't his attorney let the charge go to trial - he clearly didn't commit premeditated murder so it will be a non guilty verdict, correct???
bring em on!
Many salvos to follow.
"This gives rise to the very real possibility we're seeing a Chicago version of Baltimore - overcharge to a political end to defuse a heated situation on the streets."
The difference between Baltimore and Chicago is that the broad in Baltimore thought she REALLY had a case against all six officers.
Anita did it for political reasons.
A LOT of this "anger" against the CPD can, AND SHOULD, be defused by FOP.
Get out there and take a pro-active approach and start "educating" the public to "Stop and Drop". Get with the Program!! A Cop tells you to stop, YOU STOP! Cop tells you to drop (a weapon), YOU DROP IT! No running away or mouthing off back to the cop.
The more I think about it, it should be more than just FOP.
You have 50 Aldermen as well as a Mayor. Start a campaign to "educate" your constituents instead of wringing your hands like you cannot do anything to correct the situation.
THAT is what LEADERSHIP is all about!
What if McDonald had pulled that knife on a civilian in his own neighborhood? If that civilian shot him 16 times it would be considered self defense and the case would have been cleared immediately.
Anonymous said...
It will be interesting when the lawyer calls all the command staff in for them to testify why the claimed the shooting was justified.
8/22/2016 03:31:00 AM
I wonder, do these meetings have a secretary who records what transpires?
First Degree Murder never made sense to me. But that's just my opinion, I'm not a bottom-feeding democrat hack attorney so I don't think like they do. Manslaughter always seemed the appropriate charge (your mileage might vary).
A lot of those demonstrating will only be out there trying to get free stuff, they could care less about McDonald being killed.
Any guesses when the charges against van Dyke will be dropped? Because you'll want it to happen on the coldest day of the year. And Rahm's hoping for at least one day after he accepts a new job in Clinton's administration so he won't be around to deal with "The Great Chicago Fire-Part 2." And burn it will. Because gunfire will hold the FD back, and any smart coppers still around will be sub-fetal by then.
BLM will bus in miscreants from all over the country who won't want to miss a chance to destroy without consequences. Best to organize your own block security plan now with personnel, supplies, shifts, overwatch, etc, because it'll be a full out war when it comes.
Come on Dan, call in the white shirts, ask them on the stand who all was present and decided this was justified then call them in and ask them the same. I am so sick and tired of the politically appointed ass clowns (face it, not one of them earned anything ) getting away with the shit they caused and leaving the infidel blue shirts holding their bag!!!
Murder one is a deliberate over-charge. Manslaughter, maybe, but never M1. That way the non-thinking savages don't burn down your house when the "not guilty" verdict comes in but the cop who basically just did his job doesn't suffer too much. Money, time and the civil rights of people trying to get home around sit-in dummies, just so we don't have to admit to ourselves that certain elements of society don't even know how to pretend to be human beings.
We not headed for the collapse of American society, we're already there.
So the case gets acquitted and all the bad polices are fired, meanwhile nobody questioning or digging into Rahm's involvement or coverup.
Six million dollars of hush money and still no explanation is demanded.
Quietly everything will fade away.
First degree murder doesn't need to be premeditated.
If the DOJ takes over we all know it will be for the wrong reasons.
In dumbOcrap run cities with a dummerOcrap president, the pols. and police brass always come teflon coated.
It's the out of control street police that cause the inner city problems.
More tax dollars and we can fix it.
If Van Dyke is acquitted, of any charge, the city of Chicago will go up in flames.
Or at least the shitty parts of it will.
$20 says the office will walk.
Even better question when you see shit like this why are you not carrying? This black lies matter attacks must stop:
http://m.cleveland19.com/19actionnews/db_330498/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=7ZAUG3gt
Major Democratic Cities: Chicago, Baltimore ,Detroit, Milwaukee, Cleveland, NeW York, ! Anyone see a pattern here?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I've been waiting for this move but Why doesn't his attorney let the charge go to trial - he clearly didn't commit premeditated murder so it will be a non guilty verdict, correct???
Would you trust your life to twelve Chicagoans too stupid or too poor to avoid jury duty?
Remember Officer Porter from Baltimore? His jury trial ended up in a hung jury, when two people decided they didn't want to go back to the hood and explain how they didn't convict that poor schmuck of murder. I don't blame them, they would have been just another murder statistic themselves.
There's nothing in the statute for first degree murder requiring the state prove premeditation. Not sure why this keeps going around. Premeditation is an aggravating factor, not an element. Not siding with the State on this case, but if you are going to talk shit, you had better know your shit.
(720 ILCS 5/9-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 9-1)
Sec. 9-1. First degree Murder - Death penalties - Exceptions - Separate Hearings - Proof - Findings - Appellate procedures - Reversals.
(a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
(1) he either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
(2) he knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
(3) he is attempting or committing a forcible felony other than second degree murder.
A cop and a lawyer.
A cop and a lawyer.
8/22/2016 07:01:00 PM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Is the above trying to impress the loyal readers of the number blog in the country ?? few U.P.S on the midnights.? Your a Lawyer, wow, impressive !! There are 19 lawyers working 4 hour shift' throwing parcels on midnights at United Parcel service in Illinois. A FACT !!!.
Your like Dean. PhD, you got a Jurist degree in Law, Do to carry business cards "Esquire" after your name and cell phone number. You wasted the city' money getting this B.S degree to impress the ghetto mouths while working the 3rd watch traffic car in 005. You cited 720, wow, we never knew that about murder !
Lawyer' are now a dime a dozen and the part time grill man at "Steak and Egger" got more respect then Lawyer'. I know a couple of Harvard law grads, 10 years tenure selling shoes at J.C Penny'. The law firms are not impressed with any Lawyer' trying to find a spot. Business is bad, you should of went to a mail order college like Dean -PhD and be a gun smith.
Poor V.D is losing his mind by now and the people like you are bragging you got a Law degree. I bet you wear to law school 10 K gold ring like a Sr. in High School.
Sorry, SCC for the rant, the great CPD foot soldiers are in trenches in mud and this Lawyer wants us to be "Honored" for his words.
First degree murder doesn't need to be premeditated.
8/22/2016 01:36:00 PM
There's nothing in the statute for first degree murder requiring the state prove premeditation. Not sure why this keeps going around. Premeditation is an aggravating factor, not an element. Not siding with the State on this case, but if you are going to talk shit, you had better know your shit.
A cop and a lawyer.
8/22/2016 07:01:00 PM
The definition of premeditation is: consideration or planning of an act beforehand that shows INTENT to commit that act.
Synonym of premeditation: INTENT
1st degree murder requires INTENT.
2nd degree murder does not require INTENT.
A couple of you experts better go back to law school and/or the police academy.
Would you trust your life to twelve Chicagoans too stupid or too poor to avoid jury duty?.........
Plus some "judge" who got on the Bench by clout.
Next case.
8:45 AM
Lawyer must get every telephone record , Email of IPRA , Mayor , Mayors Staff , Superintendent , Deputy Superintendent from the Day of Shooting to the day the Officer was indicted .
Command Staff that agreed shooting was justified were 100% RIGHT .
COVER UP WAS TO ELECT TUTU
Is the above trying to impress the loyal readers of the number blog in the country ?? few U.P.S on the midnights.? Your a Lawyer, wow, impressive !! There are 19 lawyers working 4 hour shift' throwing parcels on midnights at United Parcel service in Illinois. A FACT !!!.
Your like Dean. PhD, you got a Jurist degree in Law, Do to carry business cards "Esquire" after your name and cell phone number. You wasted the city' money getting this B.S degree to impress the ghetto mouths while working the 3rd watch traffic car in 005. You cited 720, wow, we never knew that about murder !
Lawyer' are now a dime a dozen and the part time grill man at "Steak and Egger" got more respect then Lawyer'. I know a couple of Harvard law grads, 10 years tenure selling shoes at J.C Penny'. The law firms are not impressed with any Lawyer' trying to find a spot. Business is bad, you should of went to a mail order college like Dean -PhD and be a gun smith.
Poor V.D is losing his mind by now and the people like you are bragging you got a Law degree. I bet you wear to law school 10 K gold ring like a Sr. in High School.
Sorry, SCC for the rant, the great CPD foot soldiers are in trenches in mud and this Lawyer wants us to be "Honored" for his words.
".......
What's your point exactly? Who was bragging about anything back there? Go ahead and unbunch your panties pal.
The definition of premeditation is: consideration or planning of an act beforehand that shows INTENT to commit that act.
Synonym of premeditation: INTENT
1st degree murder requires INTENT.
2nd degree murder does not require INTENT.
A couple of you experts better go back to law school and/or the police academy.
.......
Really? I hope you're not on van dyke's legal time, because you have no idea what you are talking about. If you went to law school, you should ask for your money back.
The definition of premeditation is: consideration or planning of an act beforehand that shows INTENT to commit that act.
Synonym of premeditation: INTENT
1st degree murder requires INTENT.
2nd degree murder does not require INTENT.
A couple of you experts better go back to law school and/or the police academy.
8/23/2016 01:16:00 AM
Premeditation is not a synonym of intent. Premeditation requires "consideration or planning BEFOREHAND." The point the lawyer/cop was making is that premeditation is not required for first degree murder. If I walk into starbucks intending to get coffee, but I see a guy cut in line and just shoot him on the spot, there was no premeditation, but there damn sure was a murder. I intended to kill him without consideration or planning beforehand. I just saw him and shot him. That's first degree murder WITH INTENT but WITHOUT PREMEDITATION. You better go back to English class or Sylvan. Learn to read and understand what you read. Just because a definition for a word has another word in it, doesn't mean those two words are synonyms. This is basic shit.
To Copper/Lawyer - Can you represent me for a meter ticket I got in Lake Bluff. Please advise your retainer rate !
Mr. Lawyer is so smart that none of the gold stars, sorry one, Price' old job, have a Law degree. Cop/Lawyer, you got your Jurist degree from "Phoenix U posted inside your locker in district and stare at it everyday when you report to work on the 1st. watch.
China is looking for Lawyer' and will put you up in one of their Lawyer dorm' next to a smog cloud sweat shop. You can maybe be the lawyer for the Beijing Lodge 99 F.O.P. Ask you fellow PhD Dr. Dean for a reference there.
The poor Souls arrested by you must get an ear full of the Law from you and beg to hit the lock up for pissing on the public way. You must be a hit at your traffic key and telling the asa your a LAWYER too.
Does IVC cover my meter ticket ?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
A cop and a lawyer.
8/22/2016 07:01:00 PM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Is the above trying to impress the loyal readers of the number blog in the country ?? few U.P.S on the midnights.? Your a Lawyer, wow, impressive !! There are 19 lawyers working 4 hour shift' throwing parcels on midnights at United Parcel service in Illinois. A FACT !!!.
Your like Dean. PhD, you got a Jurist degree in Law, Do to carry business cards "Esquire" after your name and cell phone number. You wasted the city' money getting this B.S degree to impress the ghetto mouths while working the 3rd watch traffic car in 005. You cited 720, wow, we never knew that about murder !
Lawyer' are now a dime a dozen and the part time grill man at "Steak and Egger" got more respect then Lawyer'. I know a couple of Harvard law grads, 10 years tenure selling shoes at J.C Penny'. The law firms are not impressed with any Lawyer' trying to find a spot. Business is bad, you should of went to a mail order college like Dean -PhD and be a gun smith.
Poor V.D is losing his mind by now and the people like you are bragging you got a Law degree. I bet you wear to law school 10 K gold ring like a Sr. in High School.
Sorry, SCC for the rant, the great CPD foot soldiers are in trenches in mud and this Lawyer wants us to be "Honored" for his words.
8/22/2016 11:32:00 PM
Your grasp of the English language is impressive. No doubt your grasp of the law is the same. Go back to answering the phone at call back.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
To Copper/Lawyer - Can you represent me for a meter ticket I got in Lake Bluff. Please advise your retainer rate !
Mr. Lawyer is so smart that none of the gold stars, sorry one, Price' old job, have a Law degree. Cop/Lawyer, you got your Jurist degree from "Phoenix U posted inside your locker in district and stare at it everyday when you report to work on the 1st. watch.
China is looking for Lawyer' and will put you up in one of their Lawyer dorm' next to a smog cloud sweat shop. You can maybe be the lawyer for the Beijing Lodge 99 F.O.P. Ask you fellow PhD Dr. Dean for a reference there.
The poor Souls arrested by you must get an ear full of the Law from you and beg to hit the lock up for pissing on the public way. You must be a hit at your traffic key and telling the asa your a LAWYER too.
Does IVC cover my meter ticket ?
8/23/2016 08:40:00 PM
Do me a favor, google "argument ad hominem." Also, google "how to write complete sentences" and "the English language." Get back to me when you are done. Or go get your G.E.D. Either way.
Premeditation is not a synonym of intent. Premeditation requires "consideration or planning BEFOREHAND." The point the lawyer/cop was making is that premeditation is not required for first degree murder. If I walk into starbucks intending to get coffee, but I see a guy cut in line and just shoot him on the spot, there was no premeditation, but there damn sure was a murder. I intended to kill him without consideration or planning beforehand. I just saw him and shot him. That's first degree murder WITH INTENT but WITHOUT PREMEDITATION. You better go back to English class or Sylvan. Learn to read and understand what you read. Just because a definition for a word has another word in it, doesn't mean those two words are synonyms. This is basic shit.
8/23/2016 06:37:00 PM
You better go open up your dictionary because intent is one of the listed synonyms for the word premeditation genius.
Premeditation is not a synonym of intent. Premeditation requires "consideration or planning BEFOREHAND." The point the lawyer/cop was making is that premeditation is not required for first degree murder. If I walk into starbucks intending to get coffee, but I see a guy cut in line and just shoot him on the spot, there was no premeditation, but there damn sure was a murder. I intended to kill him without consideration or planning beforehand. I just saw him and shot him. That's first degree murder WITH INTENT but WITHOUT PREMEDITATION. You better go back to English class or Sylvan. Learn to read and understand what you read. Just because a definition for a word has another word in it, doesn't mean those two words are synonyms. This is basic shit.
8/23/2016 06:37:00 PM
Wow. You're not very bright are you. In order to pull out your gun, raise it up, aim it at a specific person, and pull the trigger, premeditated thought is required on your part even if it takes only a couple of seconds. You considered killing him for cutting the line and thought about doing it with a gun you're carrying by shooting him with it, knowing that it's an unlawful act that will likely cause great bodily harm or death. The fact that he cut the line is your MOTIVE for killing him.
I won't even get into second degree murder with your stupid ass. Go look up the statute to learn the difference.
Oh, and go look up the word premeditation and the listed synonyms for the word smart ass. Get back to us with your findings.
Really? I hope you're not on van dyke's legal time, because you have no idea what you are talking about. If you went to law school, you should ask for your money back.
8/23/2016 05:07:00 PM
No I'm not on his legal time or his legal TEAM. There's this thing called the Internet that will give you access to free dictionaries and lists of synonyms for words. You should go check it out before you speak on here and make a fool of yourself. Oh wait, too late.
Definition of premeditation
: an act or instance of premeditating; specifically : consideration or planning of an act beforehand that shows intent to commit that act
pre·med·i·ta·tion
priˌmedəˈtāSHən,prē-/
noun
the action of planning something (especially a crime) beforehand.
"the defendant said there was no planning or premeditation"
synonyms: (advance) planning, forethought, preplanning, (criminal) intent; malice aforethought
"the prosecution is trying to prove premeditation"
The terms premeditation malice aforethought deliberate, and willful are often used in statutes either along with or instead of intent to describe the necessary mental state for a crime. In some jurisdictions the premeditation has to occur only moments before the act, while in others it must precede the act by an appreciable amount of time.
I did it, I took the on line Couse at Phoenix University and got my law degree in 18 weeks, it was hard, but they give you answers after tests and you are allowed to change your wrong ones. The on-line bar exam for Arizona state is provided by this top ten law school. It' a 3 hour test and they give you 3 more hours for an additional fee.
I am going to be called a "Copper/Lawyer II" like the other genius poster citing chap 38 / Criminal statues. Why does he mention "Pre-Med", is the charge medically related ? I would bet the "Copper Lawyer I" grew up in Burr Ridge when the city hired him. Had a nanny and a BMW in boarding school.
You young groovy police out there, get that Law Degree and you can be called "Esquire or Doctor" , just ask Dr. Dean. It' a Road to bigger things, ask "Copper / Lawyer I " and framing your law degree on your locker door. People will notice You more !
Let's not stretch the definition of premeditation. Taken out to its logical extreme, whoever buys a firearm and makes the statement that the weapon is being purchased for self-defense is guilty of "premeditation." The specific thought must precede the specific action against a specific person in order to meet the burden of proof in court.
Making a generic statement about defending your property or person against "bad elements" in your neighborhood is hard to prove as "premeditation." Making a specific statement against a generic group is also hard to prove as "premeditation", such as saying something about "those kids down the block." It COULD be construed as premeditation, but may or may not weigh heavy enough to meet the burden of proof. Whether or not it can be proven depends on the specifics of the statement. A remark about "those kids down the block" isn't as damaging as a statement about how "those people in apartment 3G better watch their ass."
Specifically naming "that punk Bobby in 3G" is even more damaging. That's the wiggle room the attorneys play with, both for the prosecution and the defense. That's the so-called "judgment of a reasonable man" part of the law, and why the "one size fits all" approach does not and can not work in court.
There is the time element as well. A remark made last year or last month is one thing. That same statement made last week tips the scales in favor of the prosecution's claim of "premeditation." That same statement made only hours or minutes before the episode in question is really going to hurt your case. The "judgment of a reasonable man" standard again.
Quite a few people that get a carry permit make the mistake of thinking they have greater freedom to act. They don't. The courts have generally held that a civilian with a CCW has the greater responsibility to try to de-escalate the situation, because of the "disparity of force" rules that apply to potentially deadly situations. Some states allow for "stand your ground," in that the defender has no obligation to retreat from any place they are lawfully present. The "Castle Doctrine" allows for no obligation to retreat in your home or place of business, and in SOME jurisdictions, if your are in your personal vehicle on the public right of way. Other states make no such allowance, in that the defender must retreat until they can retreat no further. YOU MUST KNOW THE APPLICABLE LAWS IN YOUR AREA. Not just your home turf, but areas you travel to or through. The standards can vary quite drastically from state to state, and even within a given state. The standards for a "justifiable" self-defense shooting in Texas are quite a bit easier to prove than in Illinois, while Illinois' standards are easier to prove than in New York or California. If you have to ask yourself if you are justified in shooting, you probably are not justified.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Really? I hope you're not on van dyke's legal time, because you have no idea what you are talking about. If you went to law school, you should ask for your money back.
8/23/2016 05:07:00 PM
No I'm not on his legal time or his legal TEAM. There's this thing called the Internet that will give you access to free dictionaries and lists of synonyms for words. You should go check it out before you speak on here and make a fool of yourself. Oh wait, too late.
Definition of premeditation
: an act or instance of premeditating; specifically : consideration or planning of an act beforehand that shows intent to commit that act
pre·med·i·ta·tion
priˌmedəˈtāSHən,prē-/
noun
the action of planning something (especially a crime) beforehand.
"the defendant said there was no planning or premeditation"
synonyms: (advance) planning, forethought, preplanning, (criminal) intent; malice aforethought
"the prosecution is trying to prove premeditation"
The terms premeditation malice aforethought deliberate, and willful are often used in statutes either along with or instead of intent to describe the necessary mental state for a crime. In some jurisdictions the premeditation has to occur only moments before the act, while in others it must precede the act by an appreciable amount of time.
8/23/2016 10:45:00 PM
Read this and educate yourself. https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/2077052/people-v-williams/
If the premeditation you are talking about is the "technical premeditation which accompanies every first degree, intentional murder," that is the same thing as intent. Congratulations, you win. The state has to prove intent. No one ever said they didn't.
I'm done with this thread. You are all either trolling or incredibly ignorant. But what do I know, I'm just some rich spoiled kid with three years on the job, and a degree from an online university. I've never even worked a homicide. Ever.
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