Thursday, December 15, 2016

So, About That Advice...

Someone brought up some points that we figure need to be addressed concerning our post:
  • NEVER EVER meet with a Sergeant / Watch Lieutenant / Captain / Commander alone where he or she can threaten you.
We figured it was clear what we meant - meeting alone where he or she can threaten you. Evidently, it wasn't.
  • What a ridiculous statement. If you're given an order to report to the W/C or Commander's office what are you going to do, bring your partner or watch rep with you? So let's say you do just that, then the boss tells you to step in and close the door. Are you going to refuse unless your witness is present? You don't have the right to refuse an order. And you don't have the right to have a "representative" present since it's not part of an investigation or hearing. This is very bad advice that could get someone a big suspension for disobeying an order. I've seen first hand someone refuse to report to the Sergeant's office when ordered to do so and they got 30 days for disobeying a direct order after the CR investigation was completed.

    SCC, you're generally on point but on this one you're way off. You should think through your advise before posting.
So let's address it. If there is something to be said to officers in general regarding activity, or lack thereof, then Roll Call is an appropriate locale for the supervisors to bring it up. That's the purpose of Roll Call - to take the roll, inform officers of ongoing events, conflicts, changes in policy, etc. Get the word out there bosses - with 10 or 20 or 30 coppers present to witness it all.

For any sort of individual meeting though, it would be in the Officer's best interest to have a witness present. Supervisors do it all the time, especially when they have to give a direct order. There's always a second white shirt in the room. Always. So why can't an officer have a witness present? Well, does this apply?

Weingarten Rights provide the following:
  • During an investigatory interview, the Supreme Court ruled that the following rules apply:

    Rule 1: The employee must make a clear request for union representation before or during the interview. The employee cannot be punished for making this request.

    Rule 2: After the employee makes the request, the employer must choose from among three options:
    --grant the request and delay questioning until the union representative arrives and (prior to the interview continuing) the representative has a chance to consult privately with the employee;
    --deny the request and end the interview immediately; or
    --give the employee a clear choice between having the interview without representation, or ending the interview.

    Rule 3: If the employer denies the request for union representation, and continues to ask questions, it commits an unfair labor practice and the employee has a right to refuse to answer. The employer may not discipline the employee for such a refusal.
Do Weingarten Rights exist in CPD? If not, there's something called the Uniform Police Officers' Disciplinary Act that is codified in Illinois State Law (50 ILCS 725). There's plenty of loopholes to hang your hat on if you feel like trying, and in this atmosphere, why wouldn't you? Any "closed door meeting" is an invitation to abuse. It comes down to a "(s)he said, (s)he said" argument that you will almost always come out on the losing end of. So our caution to not get roped into a situation like that would be good advice.

We suppose we could offer the following advice instead:
  • If you are "ordered" into an office with the door closed for a private threat session or berating, pull out your phone and tell the boss you'll be recording this for your own and his/her own safety, just so there isn't any misunderstanding of what was said. That way, both parties are aware of existence of a recording. The supervisor can then choose to back down or continue with the meeting.
There's nothing in the Contract or Orders that say you have to sit for threats. In fact, there are numerous items that say you will be treated respectfully and professionally. We'd hate for there to be an unfounded accusation that threats were made without an impartial witness present. That couldn't possibly happen in this day and age, right?

Labels:

49 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Having personal experience in this sort of thing, don't automatically think your witness is going back you up.
If shit gets dicey they will have a case of amnesia, count in it.

12/15/2016 12:34:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

advocate 2.0: officer cannot use cell phone with camera/audio recording capability. Phones are being inventoried with personal info. where is f.o.p. legal guidance on cell phones or shall i say smart phones???? If they can take my phone,(which I don't agree with) then pay my phone bill and my land line that I'm supposedly supposed to have.

SCC please address this.....It affects everyone.

12/15/2016 12:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and another thing........ white shirts have been drinking kool aid and have lost their ducks.....and activity for that mattter......whats an isr?

12/15/2016 12:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great clarification. No need to refuse the order to appear, it's what you say when you get there. I've had this done to myself before, ordered to see the boss, began with an immediate berating. At which point I requested a union representative. That was it, meeting over and continued at a later time with a very different level of respect. Never be alone. We all have different comfort levels, but the conversation, even when it's disciplinary, should always be professional and respectful.

12/15/2016 01:45:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

These rules don't apply to a counseling session because a counseling session is not an investigation and non disciplinary in nature, as outlined in the Personal Concerns directive. I wouldn't hang your hat on this court decision.

12/15/2016 02:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If SCC and the posters are advocating having a witnesses to the admonishment then so be it. I'll record the meetings myself. Better yet I'll get on the radio and do it, BTXXX, please re-submit your report for the 6th time, this time correct all your spelling errors, BtXXXX, you have been late for roll call everyday for the last year, next time you will be spared. VRI Car XXXX, respond to the in-progress call a block away from where you have been sitting for the past 5 hours. Then the officer can acknowledge the admonishment and correct their actions, or they can respond with their excuse which will also be recorded, BtXXXX, Sorry sarg, making complete sentences and spelling have never been my strong suit. BTXXX, sorry sarg, we didn't hear any jobs over the volume of the Christmas movie we are watching.. Its a WIN-WIN everything will be recorded and everyone on the zone will be a witness to their bullshit.

12/15/2016 03:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should know in Chicago, Crook County, Illinois State Law carries no weight (ie. Kimesha and her felony retail theft edict).

12/15/2016 03:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"SCC, you're generally on point but on this one you're way off. You should think through your advise before posting."
SCC I agree with the above. You're off the deep end on this one.

12/15/2016 03:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

May individuals sue supvs, interactering in these times of behaviors?

12/15/2016 04:48:00 AM  
Blogger Mr. SouthSide said...

Whenever I meet with the boss, I bring him a PBR. it's all good.

12/15/2016 05:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You might was to take a look at less serious transgression #17.

12/15/2016 05:45:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From Supervisor's View: I always have a witness present for any conversation that addresses an action by a PO. I know I will not say anything inappropriate so it is for my protection against false accusations as well as the POs protection. It really is good for both parties to keep things professional and avoid any personal issues that may arise, I know there are a lot of aspiring Commanders at the Lt level so I can't speak for their actions but most POs that require addressing in private are usually the problem children likely to make a ridiculous complaint or try to take the conversation to an unnecessary level.

12/15/2016 06:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wouldn't be easier just to do your job then to go research some obscure rules? Typical dogs work harder at getting out of work than actually doing a little work. Also, your advice will get a lot of people suspended. You are correct though, that no one should be threatened. If a boss is resorting to threats - he or she isn't much of a leader to begin with.

12/15/2016 07:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This Nation has turned into a bunch of pansies. Take you r lumps. You had them coming. I have never seen a good copper doing nothing wrong yelled at, EVER.

The "everyone gets a trophy" generation.

12/15/2016 07:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

On this SCC you're talking like a child. It's not an investigatory interview at any point. It's the PO's ass if he refuses. And as far as recording the conversation, I believe that is against G.O. and would have to be agreed to by both parties even it it weren't a G.O.

You may want to give up on this one kid.

12/15/2016 07:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Be sure to whip out your cellphone when the rest of the watch surrounds you and confronts you about roll call now starting on time and checkoff is exactly 9 hours after roll call begins. It's like swiping with uniform inspection! Fun for everyone!

12/15/2016 07:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SCC, you are absolutely correct on this one.

I have brought in a witness on two separate occasions. Back in the 80s a WC really, really disliked female POs, so periodically he'd call one in his office, close the door and MF them and call them every name imaginable. On my second call in, I brought a witness. The WC said the Sgt wasn't necessary. My response was if I was doing such a poor job then I would assume my direct supervisor should be made aware of this. The meeting was over before it even started and I was never called in by that jag again.

And then there are some people you should never be alone with.

12/15/2016 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger grunt said...

When recording DO NOT USE YOUR SMART PHONE. Use a recording device, they are small and practical. Never go to any meeting without one. I trust no one in this merit cesspool of hacks

12/15/2016 08:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

After reading the exploits of the two officers who sued city and won a million each. The female officer was threatened with arrest and CR for allegedly recording a supervisor.

Is it worth it?

Look at past officers charged with nonsense and they have to pay out of pocket to defend themselves. Again is it worth it?

12/15/2016 08:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should have a camera microphone with you or a body camera, just turn it on. I turn my camera microphone on every time I deal with a complaining citizen so I have a record of the incident. If your boss is yelling at you just hold down the police radio key so it goes over the air, that will really piss him/her off.
After saying this, I don't think you should ever get into a pissing match with a supervisor. It is a no win for you. You may win the battle but you for sure will lose the war. Supervisors have way too much control over you to piss them off.

12/15/2016 08:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Leave the office get on your radio and say you didn't understand what was said, repeat what was said and ask if that's what they meant.

12/15/2016 08:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

315am to the Sgt who posted saying he will record the meetings. 1) did you make Sgt by test score or meritoriously? If off of test score good for you if not then keep your comment to yourself..2) I assume as a blue shirt you were 100% legit at all times right?. Blow that smoke up someone else's ass

12/15/2016 09:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have you been interviewed by the feds? They always have an extra agent present! That agent is the "witness office" that is the reason we need the same! For to long coppers have been lied on.

12/15/2016 09:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

great article. It helps. Many people on the job just don't read .

thank scc.

12/15/2016 09:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds to me a reason for body cameras.

12/15/2016 09:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just used to threaten the boss back.

I am sorry boss i thought every one only could work 4 hours a day.

I am sorry boss i thought i could switch my day off too so i can get holiday pay.

I am sorry boss i don't sign complaints for victims.

I am sorry boss i like watching my kids play soccer on company time in a squad car.

My favorite is spars because they mean nothing and i tell the boss man i have 2000 hours on the books but i will take the day and then call in sick. Don't cry just get even.

I aint on a TACT team and work solo on days i even got my original bump card go figure.

12/15/2016 10:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry to have to break it to you but having a witness in room did not help one bit. PO claimed he was not paying attention and did not know what was going on. Yet he was able to spread the word of what happen to everyone. I called FOP and my goodness once again they don't know crap but to say before you go against a white shirt know that's not a good idea. REALLY??!!! The abuse has gone one for long enough and I'm exhausted. Every little thing and it turns out to be BS. I was venting and was told by a seasoned officer to record every word said to me by LT. If the department will not help to file an EEOC complaint. No one will help your on your own.

12/15/2016 10:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Never trust a white shirt, especially on a late Friday afternoon.
Lester Burnham: How to deal with a Company man.
- from American Beauty

https://youtu.be/hJVXg1AHQTY

12/15/2016 11:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WOW somebody knows their shit well. Good job.

12/15/2016 11:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(OT) So a police officer chases a thug, thug has Gun copper shoots thug after thug points Gun now copper is charged stay fetal:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/ct-milwaukee-police-shooting-20161215-story.html

Being the real police listening to gold star club you could be next!

12/15/2016 12:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You also missed a big one SCC

If asked into a office by a supervisor of the opposite sex you may request another officer be present during this interview/questioning.

This comes from a incident that was adjudicated in federal investigation due to " sex misconducted " per supervisors ie; downtown ernie and sparkle pants lapa boy !

12/15/2016 12:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WOW a lot of white shirts making threats ! Oh please give me a order that results in injury or any loss ( boss )! and i'll show you how fast your sphincter muscle tightens up at a deposition.

Come on white shirts think the city or department is gonna back your play ?

12/15/2016 12:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OMG!

Look at all the supervisors whining because they
might actually be held accountable for their
conduct in how they treat their subordinates.

CPD culture really does have toxic elements.

Had one ignorant savage of a supervisor address
our recruit class (150+) during a lean & rest
group punishment session: (instead of lagging
jus the handful of known and notorious clouted
idiots who fucked-up)

"I've been fucked over by the best, so
I get to fuck YOU over..."

CPD will never progress until this silly
school-yard bullying nonsense stops.

Amusing...
Instead of contributing constructively
to the dialog, you supervisors with these
unevolved tendencies are posting snide
commentary and are trying to shout SCC
down regarding this topic.

In the corporate world, supervisors are
separated with cause for mistreating
subordinates.

Just you wait until the "lower standards"
Police start showing up in quantities and
this bad supervision ends up getting
cold-cocked, chin-checked and door-popped...

You'll be yearning for those days when
Policemen more or less abided by the
rules of conduct and had the wherewithal
to more or less abide by processes in place.

Not advocating anything other than for
foolishness to come to an end.



12/15/2016 12:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read the body cam order. You cannot use anyother recording device besides Dept BWC

12/15/2016 12:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow sarge you must be one of them real go getters
And I've worked some VRI where most of the common sense supervisors were satisfied if you were where you supposed to be and nobody got shot in their box
But you must be one of those guys that's pissed that the lowly blue shirt is staying fetal and protecting their pension
Probably eats at you every tour
Oh, you might want to proof read your posts for grammatical errors before you throw stones
Otherwise you too could be spared, er I meant sparred
Lol you must be great to work for
Retired after 31

12/15/2016 01:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Every situation is different. I generally have another supervisor, same gender as person talking to ion the meeting. I also have been asked to have a fop rep or another blue shirt present as well, never turned it down either way. My one stipulation, and I do it as an order, they are not allowed to say anything they are there as witnesses only. Mine have have been just a few and never completely adversarial. I know there are some complete asshole supervisors and po's, we as a department have morphed into a lot of new entitled supervisors and po's.
Not sure what our future holds but I know one thing on the verge of 25 years none of my city checks have ever bounced.
Please be safe and get home to your families, that is what truly matters.

12/15/2016 02:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did this douchebag just reference something he used to do "back in the 80s"? Like that fucking matters. Too funny...

"SCC, you are absolutely correct on this one.

I have brought in a witness on two separate occasions. Back in the 80s a WC really, really disliked female POs, so periodically he'd call one in his office, close the door and MF them and call them every name imaginable. On my second call in, I brought a witness. The WC said the Sgt wasn't necessary. My response was if I was doing such a poor job then I would assume my direct supervisor should be made aware of this. The meeting was over before it even started and I was never called in by that jag again.

And then there are some people you should never be alone with."

12/15/2016 05:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a retired lieutenant. I am upset and appalled that any supervisor would talk to a subordinate as it stated on this blog . I have never threatened any officer and have never raised my voice or swore at any officer. It is never called for and no officer should put up with it. Now, I can say that commanders have done both to me and I just walked away from them. I have had plenty of lazy officers work for me and there are other ways to deal with them. But, the atmosphere of the department these days is totally different. The department is crumbling before my eyes and is collapsing. Stay safe out there and I agree with many of the comments; stay fetal until you see how things will fall out.

12/15/2016 05:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I am a retired lieutenant. I am upset and appalled that any supervisor would talk to a subordinate as it stated on this blog . I have never threatened any officer and have never raised my voice or swore at any officer. It is never called for and no officer should put up with it. Now, I can say that commanders have done both to me and I just walked away from them. I have had plenty of lazy officers work for me and there are other ways to deal with them. But, the atmosphere of the department these days is totally different. The department is crumbling before my eyes and is collapsing. Stay safe out there and I agree with many of the comments; stay fetal until you see how things will fall out.


12/15/2016 05:42:00 PM

You're lucky you retired. The ones in this job will never amount to what police were of yesteryear. Now they are cell phone roaring crybabies that whine over having to do their job.

12/16/2016 01:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This crap happens all too often and in every unit. I was called in, told that it was a private meeting. Thought this goof Sgt just wanted to clear the air.

I entered a room with 2 more Sgts and the Lt. then I asked what was going on? Told that there were issues with the amount of time I spent on a job the night before. I asked for the fop rep and was informed he was rdo. I asked that the meeting be halted until a rep was available as the initial requesting goof started to expand his tiny little chest and started to get loud. I was told that this / these issues needed to be addressed now.

Then the questions and accusations flew h o t and heavy. I drew my pen and some paper from my pocket and began writhing who was present, the time, the office location and what was being asked and what accusations were being made. They ALL were upset over my action and peered at each other through squinting eyes. Once the accusations and highly aggressive questions were asked I addressed each question as I noted it on my paper. I was constantly attacked for each item with " well you should have this or that "
I then asked if that "They" had issues with any of my afore described routes of action and completion why wasn't that addressed by the Sgt that was supervising me at the time. Then I asked if they had spoken to him first before addressing me? They said no. I then asked if that supervisor has an issue with my work why didn't he address me during the five calls I made to him during the episode explaining the circumstances to him and getting his direction on how to continue. The the Lt said he would get to that Sgt later. I asked why later? he is sitting right there. Silence and very red faces were shared by the three Sgts present and the Lt. And I commented "well " as I addressed the supervising silent Sgt who looked like he wanted to jump out the window.

This slowed the accusations but they couldn't let the aggressive Sgt loose face for starting a witch hunt without checking the facts for which he wasn't involved in or present for.

The supervising Sgt reluctantly had to admit the accurate list of events as described and that the proper protocol and directions were followed just as he delivered and that no time or efforts were wasted in their completion.

This sent the aggressive Sgt and the Lt into a unrecoverable tail spin as I documented the supervising Sgt' s response.

After the eggs were washed from their face and they licked their wounds and they tried the same tactics on a few different occasions over different topics some job related, some personal but the results were the same. People should never use their positions to settle their personal scores due to their lack of knowledge and their own personal biases.

Dyla Hata

12/16/2016 06:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I just used to threaten the boss back.

I am sorry boss i thought every one only could work 4 hours a day.

I am sorry boss i thought i could switch my day off too so i can get holiday pay.

I am sorry boss i don't sign complaints for victims.

I am sorry boss i like watching my kids play soccer on company time in a squad car.

My favorite is spars because they mean nothing and i tell the boss man i have 2000 hours on the books but i will take the day and then call in sick. Don't cry just get even.

I aint on a TACT team and work solo on days i even got my original bump card go figure.

12/15/2016 10:03:00 AM

And you and arrogant bosses are whats wrong with this department.

12/16/2016 10:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a retired lieutenant. I am upset and appalled that any supervisor would talk to a subordinate as it stated on this blog . I have never threatened any officer and have never raised my voice or swore at any officer. It is never called for and no officer should put up with it. Now, I can say that commanders have done both to me and I just walked away from them. I have had plenty of lazy officers work for me and there are other ways to deal with them. But, the atmosphere of the department these days is totally different. The department is crumbling before my eyes and is collapsing. Stay safe out there and I agree with many of the comments; stay fetal until you see how things will fall out.

12/15/2016 05:42:00 PM


From another retired lieutenant, shut your yap. You are making assumptions about things you weren't privy to. You are retired. You are out of it.

12/16/2016 11:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


"This crap happens all too often and in every unit. I was called in, told that it was a private meeting. Thought this goof Sgt just wanted to clear the air.

I entered a room with 2 more Sgts and the Lt. then I asked what was going on? Told that there were issues with the amount of time I spent on a job the night before. I asked for the fop rep and was informed he was rdo. I asked that the meeting be halted until a rep was available as the initial requesting goof started to expand his tiny little chest and started to get loud. I was told that this / these issues needed to be addressed now..."

~Snip!~

"This sent the aggressive Sgt and the Lt into a unrecoverable tail spin as I documented the supervising Sgt' s response.

After the eggs were washed from their face and they licked their wounds and they tried the same tactics on a few different occasions over different topics some job related, some personal but the results were the same. People should never use their positions to settle their personal scores due to their lack of knowledge and their own personal biases."

Dyla Hata

12/16/2016 06:32:00 AM


Sometimes a Copper can just flat-out be snake-bitten by these bad
supervisors who whip-up other supervisors into co-signing their
personal, petty school-boy pissing contests.

And a lot of times the officer in question is wondering what is
going on because the supervisors are maneuvering in the shadows
to manufacture reasons to get the officer all fucked-up administratively.

It's insidious, dangerous, wrong and is a sign of failed supervision.


In that regard, CPD is like sixth grade with guns.


12/16/2016 11:35:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Record. Smile.

12/16/2016 07:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

they cant take my phone its not under my name its registered to my best friend...

12/16/2016 08:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I am a retired lieutenant. I am upset and appalled that any supervisor would talk to a subordinate as it stated on this blog . I have never threatened any officer and have never raised my voice or swore at any officer. It is never called for and no officer should put up with it. Now, I can say that commanders have done both to me and I just walked away from them. I have had plenty of lazy officers work for me and there are other ways to deal with them. But, the atmosphere of the department these days is totally different. The department is crumbling before my eyes and is collapsing. Stay safe out there and I agree with many of the comments; stay fetal until you see how things will fall out.

12/15/2016 05:42:00 PM


From another retired lieutenant, shut your yap. You are making assumptions about things you weren't privy to. You are retired. You are out of it.

12/16/2016 11:23:00 AM

No, YOU shut your yap "#2 retired Lt."
The first poster sure as hell is entitled to put in their 2cents worth on this blog. You however are a twit for berating someone else for no reason. I bet you were a jag of a boss.

12/16/2016 09:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Or just record the meeting without saying anything.

12/16/2016 10:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

".This Nation has turned into a bunch of pansies. Take you r lumps. You had them coming. I have never seen a good copper doing nothing wrong yelled at, EVER.

The "everyone gets a trophy" generation."


The career house mouse has spoken. Go run and get your boss another cup of coffee gump and while you're at it,GFY.

12/17/2016 01:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
they cant take my phone its not under my name its registered to my best friend...

12/16/2016 08:23:00 PM

Interesting. Wonder if it will work.

12/18/2016 09:45:00 PM  

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