Someone Enlighten Us
Maybe a Detective can answer this. If you've seen the Thursday Sun Times, Frank "crime reporter" Main writes about this new policy of informing witnesses that they are free to leave at any time during questioning.
Of course, defense lawyers are up in arms that police would dare try to solve any types of crimes by interviewing witnesses. God forbid someone should tell the police anything. And unfortunately, the clearance rate reflects this. Here's the question though: if you think someone has evidence or testimony that will be necessary or crucial to solving a case, why can't you just get a writ from a judge and hold them for obstruction? If Vice can get a warrant signed at two in the morning, there have got to be judges who'd sign a contempt order to hold some gang banger for a few days at County until he coughed up his story. There is no Constitutional right to withhold evidence that isn't self incriminating as far as we know. Is it the do-nothing ASA's? Is it a Department failure? Is it too much paperwork for a Detective Division buried in a detrius of deceased trees?
Of course, defense lawyers are up in arms that police would dare try to solve any types of crimes by interviewing witnesses. God forbid someone should tell the police anything. And unfortunately, the clearance rate reflects this. Here's the question though: if you think someone has evidence or testimony that will be necessary or crucial to solving a case, why can't you just get a writ from a judge and hold them for obstruction? If Vice can get a warrant signed at two in the morning, there have got to be judges who'd sign a contempt order to hold some gang banger for a few days at County until he coughed up his story. There is no Constitutional right to withhold evidence that isn't self incriminating as far as we know. Is it the do-nothing ASA's? Is it a Department failure? Is it too much paperwork for a Detective Division buried in a detrius of deceased trees?
posted by SCC at 7:11 AM
26 Comments:
You would have to identify who the person is and then subsequently subpoena them to appear before a Grand Jury.
I don't see a judge ordering that a person be held to tell their story to the police department.
If they don't answer questions to the Grand Jury they can be held in contempt but I can not see a judge ordering a person held as being a material witness.
The police can not compel testimony only the Grand Jury or a Judge can.
The first post has it right. I've been a detective for eight years and have never heard of any judge issuing such an order. Not that we wouldn't welcome it though.
We have not been officially notified about this new ruling, but then again, our Detective Division Special Orders are as infrequent as a Blackhawk victory. This new ruling will make the clear-up rate for murders drop even further.
You see guys like Locke Bowman in the newspapers and television and they have absolutely no clue on how uncooperative citizens are in homicide investigation. That involves their own friends and family members, not an anonymous victim.
Not only that if such a warrant for Obstruction were ever to be issued (Very Very Doubtful) i.e. a criminal act, would they not then be entitled to an Attorney?
The answer is ABSOLUTELY. No longer a witness who is not entitled to an attorney but an Offender who is.
Now they have the right to remain silent. Interesting eh?
The real point of this new ruling and my understanding is that it is being enacted is not to detain witnesses but to keep detectives from detaining suspects beyond the 48 hours without a probable cause hearing. Remember it was the detective division's idea to call suspects "witnesses" so as to avoid the 48 hr rule. It was done too often as these "witnesses" were not permitted to leave or were charged as soon as they attempted to leave thereby revealing the lie. Then when suppression hearings were held, the statements were ultimately quashed as being coerced because the suspect/witness had been unlawfully detained. The grand jury procedures for uncooperative witnesses is clearly the way to go. It's only the Feds who can jail material witnesses for refusal to cooperate. You want to try jailing an uncooperative witness for obstruction but I suggest you have a well-paying second job and deep pockets before you do and I doubt any watch commander will approve such an arrest on nothing more than a refusal to talk to the police.
suspects can't be held past 48 hours whether or not there are any witnesses. This directive regarding witnesses is a direct result of lawsuits against the city because of the detention of witnesses. There are too many negatives to even list that will come to pass out of the city's reaction in this matter
Most young pos don't have a clue about the crap the homicide dets have to deal with. Not from the street but from within the walls of the investigative "process".
The son who witnesses his fathers murder during the front porch drink fest ...during the interviews, refuses to cooperate, that's just typical and only one of a million stories we all never quite seem to accept or understand.
Some ASAs treat real witnesses like pieces of shit, more often than not. They insult their honesty, devalue their time and mistrust their motives of cooperation. Some Dets do too.
We let killers go all of the time dur to "Self Defense". One gang shoots at another, kills pookey, and the winner goes out to kill again.
One witness is never enough to approve charges. A 1st watch dick
finds a witness to a murder on the scene during the interviews.
The witness can be the character of Jesus Christ and without corroborating statement it's never enough.
Sorry about the long winded bs. It's too long to explain and too far out of the hands of the working police, all levels, to repair. Maybe O.J. didn't do it?
Right.
Don't let frustration make us fight one another, we are all we have to keep this world sane.
This is our city.
burned out beyond belief.
This is John Burge writng from Florida. All you Chicago dicks have turned into a bunch of pussies. I would never allowed witnesses to walk out the door or allow video taping of homicide interrogations!!!!
How dare you impune the character of the Office of the States Atty.
They are NEVER wrong because they don't think for themselves.
Everything that involves homicide must go through ME and I am never wrong. I am omnipotent, genius, and am not a shit for brains arrogant asshole running for future office in the grand world of politics. I do not give hand jobs to Dick D. either.
D. O'B. I.C.
10:07:55 A.M. is an IMPOSTOR.
12:46:03 is an impostor. Everyone knows that no one in A/2 Det. Div. can solve a crime.
Sherlock H.
11/04/2005 08:28:47 AM is really off base.
detectives have to consider how their case will be presented to an asa because they are going to look for an excuse NOT to charge. THAT IS THEIR JOB!
This judge's order regarding witnesses does more to hinder an investigation than to help us solve it. LIBERLS do not want more offenders in jail, although it does allow them only one place to stop when looking for votes.
Believe it or not, some witnesses do not want to tell the police anything, some lie and when asked again forget that lie and lie again to explain the changes. the only recourse is to hold them until we can find someone supporting their "story" or to find another "Truthful" witness and then confront the "liar" with the truth.
I hope none of the readers here ever have their family killed here, because without a videotape of the entire thing, charges will be very rare.
GOOD LUCK! BE SAFE! CYA!
Forget about all of this other nonsence, let the butchering of fill kline and bald baby kline begin.
i say let all these gangbanger on gangbanger homicides go unsolved. who cares!!!! concentrate on the homicides where the victims matter!!! if you are a dic working a homicide where the vic is a banger, who gives a shit if it gets solved. make as much overtime as you can on it but as far as solving it who gives a shit!!! focus your efforts on the innocent victims. the city and liberals have tied our hands when it comes to solving murders so lets not bother solving them unless they worth solving. after all, its up to us whether they get solved or not. rape the city for as much o.t. on the bull shit homicides by running lineups, taking statements, etc. etc. focus doing real detective work on the homicides where the victim matters and laugh all the way to the bank as the clearance rate falls to historic levels!!!
Anonymous said...
How dare you impune the character of the Office of the States Atty.
They are NEVER wrong because they don't think for themselves.
Everything that involves homicide must go through ME and I am never wrong. I am omnipotent, genius, and am not a shit for brains arrogant asshole running for future office in the grand world of politics. I do not give hand jobs to Dick D. either.
D. O'B. I.C.
11/04/2005 10:27:33 AM
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I came on the job looking to get a law degree. I have since fell in love with it and could care less ab law school (until I keep getting fucked in the promo process--i better find me some answers....).
Before coming on The Job, I worked for the 2nd largest law firm in Chicago. Every one there has J.D.'s from Harvard, Yale, Northwestern, U of C, U of I, Princeton, etc blah blah..... Most of them get there because they are trust fund babies. More than half were clerks for US Sup Ct justices. Many of them in their older years are so wealthy they establish their own Foundations. A one year after school makes $125k / yr, a partner makes $1M+ / yr. The firm had former JFK laywers and former Bush 1 lawyers.
These lawyers make the CC SA office a LUGHING JOKE! ASA's are the bottom of the barrel of students from the bottom of the barrel of law schools. A new ASA MAYBE makes $35k / yr. I have no clue of how they pay for their law school debt. If they came from a good school, they have alterier motives for being there.
All that being said you have an insiders view of who you are dealing with. I'm not saying that ALL ASAs are slobs. It's a great place to learn the battlefield technics.
Yeah and if you had a highschool degree you could spell, you are one dumb fuck, destined to be in a beat car for 29 years and a day!
Ha! You beat me to it!
11/04/2005 08:28:47 AM
"Remember it was the detective division's idea to call suspects "witnesses" so as to avoid the 48 hr rule."
Please tell me when this decision was made? Another know it all who has never done it. Please don't say "I heard it from" because that does not give you credibility. Cite your experience if you wish to speak as an expert. From where I sit you are a clueless motherfucker.
9:10:28, Pray tell, why did you leave the high class law firm to work with the masses? Could it be you were just the copy boy. You still are a dumb prick, have a happy 29 years and a day! MAKEN COPIES THE COPATOLA BOY!
Remember, The ASAs only had one class of Criminal law and one class of criminal court procedure throughout three years of law school.
They get hired by the CC SAO and after about a year in appellate review and misdemeanor court they are sent to Felony review.
This of course makes them experts in criminal investigations.
You are all forgeting about the big picture. Do you for a minute think I give a fuck if I solve the case when Mookie shot Pookie for selling blunt on the wrong corner.
Get your head out of your ass! It's all about the 1st and the 16th!!!
The D unit is just a spot, like oh so many others in this department. It's alot easier to get there when you have the answers before you take the test. So sit there and collect your D2A pay....and shut the fuck up!
I love the look in an ASA's eyes when you answer their question: Well, how much does a cop make? It's absolutley beautiful! Yes, that's right, you dropped $100,000 on John Marshall and now you are screwed. Shit, a copy boy can make $30k with a little OT.
11/05/2005 05:53:27 PM
That's right, I'll sit here and collect my D2A and my 2K a month overtime check. You keep fucking up basic police work and I'll keep counting the money.
Hey 11/05/2005 05:53:27 PM,
THEY DIDN'T GIVE YOU THE ANSWERS? EVERYONE ELSE GETS THEM. WHERE DOES ELVIS LIVE? DID YOU HEAR THE CIA BROUGHT CRACK TO THE U.S.?
HOW ABOUT THE GUY WHO INSURED HIS EXPENSIVE CIDARS AGAINST FIRE, THEN COLLECTED THE MONEY AFTER SMOKING THEM?
Let the outing of fill kline and bbk (bald baby kline)begin.
I object to the last post. My nickname is "BTK", not "bbk".
I've met new friends at the El Dorado Correctional Facility--Reginald and Jonathan Carr. You may have heard of the Carr brothers from "The Wichita Massacre.
BTK
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