IPRA Online
The independent body charged with investigating Chicago police conduct will -- for the first time --begin posting shooting investigation results on its website, authorities said.
The decision by the Independent Police Review Authority marks a dramatic change in how members of the public can follow up, and understand, results of the investigations, experts said.
"It's a sea-change,'' said Prof. Art Lurigio, professor of criminal justice and psychology at Loyola University. "I think for most large urban police departments, this is a major step forward in police accountability to the public. It opens up lines of communication. . . That builds greater trust.''
And initially, we're of the opinion that this will lead to even more second guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking. Most people don't understand what happens in those milliseconds when the decision is made to shoot, not shoot, deploy OC or any other type of force. It takes time to explain and dissect actions in those circumstances - time that isn't available when the decision is being made.
Also, almost all citizens and even most cops (including SCC) lack the complex understanding of dynamic physics involved in shooting; why a bullet went this way, why the trajectory through a body resulted such-and-such a wound, what the positioning of a body resulted in this outcome and not another, the physics of shooting at water, metal, brick backstops, car windows, other glass, etc. All of this is processed in an instant (or not processed at all) and now IPRA is opening up coppers to a lot of speculation as to actions being justified at the time.
Like we said, a wary eye. And we aren't really confident about it based on who and what staff IPRA and the current Administrations, both Department and political.
Also, almost all citizens and even most cops (including SCC) lack the complex understanding of dynamic physics involved in shooting; why a bullet went this way, why the trajectory through a body resulted such-and-such a wound, what the positioning of a body resulted in this outcome and not another, the physics of shooting at water, metal, brick backstops, car windows, other glass, etc. All of this is processed in an instant (or not processed at all) and now IPRA is opening up coppers to a lot of speculation as to actions being justified at the time.
Like we said, a wary eye. And we aren't really confident about it based on who and what staff IPRA and the current Administrations, both Department and political.
Labels: info for the police
posted by SCC at 10:14 AM
51 Comments:
"...It opens up lines of communication. . . That builds greater trust."
No, it opens up a window for everyone to become experts in shooting incidents, and it allows public opinion to sway investigations and lawsuits.
Things like this will never build trust, because the trust was never there and they don't want to trust the police. Lawyers are drooling at this like Pavlov's dogs.
Score another one for the liberal agenda!
Oh, hi Chalkie. Guess it's time to ensure we have plenty of ink in our pens for all those General Case reports we'll be handing out this year to mom.
another reason why the back of the park, a portable radio, and a long lunch never looked so good. you catching a brutality beef = you are being investigated by ipra which is composed of civilians who have never been the police and don't understand our job. all they know is "little pookie" told them that the big bad police slapped them around and now you are the bad guy. officer, come on down to 35th and state with your attorney to explain yourself. yeah officer, we know that "little pookie" has 40 pinches and has been to idoc twice but we still need your statement. which is why bird watching in the park is so appealing right now.
Fuck It I am even more done than ever! Why don't they just take our guns? This city is going down fast and the asshole in charge of ipra a cali lib! where is mayor freido on vacation as usual that pos!
This liberal city created a monster by allowing citizens to put their noses in police business in the first place.
Who in their right mind still works in ghetto districts? If you have time on and still work in ghetto you, my friends, are losers.....
How about also posting the booking picture of the "complainant", his/her criminal history, how many times they have made "allegations" and their criminal histories.....
Off The Topic: How is it that a sgt in 016 who has 25yrs on the job and six as a sergeant gets dumped to midnites while a certain female sgt who has 8YRS ON THE JOB AND 1 AS A SGT stays on days while assigned to midnites. Oh she also has Sat and Sun off. Riccio we thought you were better then that. Well it seems as though F.V. has brought her skills to 016. And they are NOT police skills. Those from 024 know exactly what Im talking about!
Capt list out
Thank God for SCC! Whether my dog pukes on the carpet, the car won't start, my little soldier won't come to attention, or a lop-earred skinny fruit is elected president, I can count on going to your site and being cheered up. To partially repay for value received, I offer the following advice.
Take your time responding to jobs. It's amazing how may things resolve themselves w/o police involvement. At the worst, you'll have to clean up a mess and write some reports. Big deal.
Never stop for hand wavers. Nothing good has ever resulted from stoping for a hand waver.
Use you gun only to save your life. Anything that results is thus small potatoes compared to not shooting.
Learn a trade, preferably something you can work under the table. Things can't go on the way they are, and you don't want to be left with no options but being a greeter at Walmart.
Meanwhile, keep documenting the insanity. It makes my problems look insignificant.
If you are not making stops you are probably not going to have to shoot anyone.
If go to a call and have to use deadly force, you can blame the caller.
I'd sit back and wait for them to come to you!
Captains list;
Gene Dembowski 011
Leo Panepinto 012
Charlotte Delatore 013
Kenneth Barnas 023
David Jarmusz 021
Anthony Ceja 025
Ronald Pontecore 124
Lupe Pena 126
David McNaughton 142
Dennis Walsh 177
Brian Daly 188
Christopher Fletcher 189
Kevin Navarro 189
Laurel Bresnahan 620
James Jones 620
And initially, we're of the opinion that this will lead to even more second guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking. Most people don't understand what happens in those milliseconds when the decision is made to shoot, not shoot, deploy OC or any other type of force. It takes time to explain and dissect actions in those circumstances - time that isn't available when the decision is being made.
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think of it as an opportunity to educate the public at large. as long as these kind of investigations are done in secret without any public oversight, the public at large is right to think there is a lot of opportunity to fudge the results.
its a lot harder to believe the investigations are not upfront if there is even a little light shown on them.
long run - a very good thing. short run - maybe some confusion as part of the learning curve.
Recently handled a police officer shot. The asshole confessed in the emergency room in front of several doctors. One of the political hacks from IPRA came to the hospital, advised asshole of his rights and he confessed to the IPRA Idiot, too. Guess What? We made the IPRA Idiot PART AND PARCEL to the asshole's confession and let the IPRA Idiot know he is now a witness and will be getting a subpoena to appear in court so when the asshole and his attorney swear we beat the confession out of him MR. IPRA can take the stand on OUR behalf. MR IPRA was taken aback, to the say the least, and started stuttering saying, "I don't go to court". YOU WILL NOW!!!! AND the doctors also heard the guy confess to MR IPRA and to us. SEE YA AT 26TH STREET MR BIG TIME INVESTIGATOR....
If you dont do anything...then you dont have to worry. Wake up and give this toilet of a Police Department what it wants..NOTHING!
What does it take to wake some of you knuckleheads up?
OFF TOPIC!!! WARNING! WARNING!
Saturday: March 7 2009
4701 S King Drive
doors open 1800hrs show starts 1900hrs
CHICAGO HIP HOP CLASSIC!!!
Last time patrons were entering ARMED!! 002nd/003/021th dst be prepared......
This is nothing more than another tool for shitbag lowlife attorney's to review while hunting for their next "innocent victim" to represent against all the other taxpayers of this city.
What do you call it when the city administrators absolutely refuse to stop finding new ways to dole out cash to the families of criminals, or the greedy families of victims whose sole intent is to profit from the family member's death?
This jagoff Daley just flat out REFUSES to stop dreaming up new ways to create frivolous lawsuits to transfer taxpayer dollars into the hands of shitheads and their shithead attorneys....
What do you call that? Insanity? Is there a lobbyist group representing ambulance chasers down at city hall? Or is it that he's just trying to enrich his select lawyer buddies in the only legal way he can find at the moment?
Off Topic...
Kass ripped into "King Shortsjanks today...atta boy, john !
Geez. It reminds me of an incident in Florida, I believe, where a landlord was attacked by a former (read: evicted) tenant with a club/hatchet/machete (something guaranteed to ruin your whole day). The landlord was able to draw his handgun but didn't shoot until he felt endangered (when the other guy started his swing). The dynamics of the landlord ducking, the attacker following through, and the reaction time for the landlord to pull the trigger ended up with the dead guy being shot in the side once and four times in the back. The DA charged the landlord with murder, ignoring the dynamics described above and the fact that someone threatened will usually shoot until their gun runs out of ammo in most cases (training can alter this behavior).
Now, they're going to put their findings on the internet? Monday morning quarterbacks report to your computers (or the ones at the library).
ECS
Can't wait to see who gets indicted for doing their jobs in killing a bad guy [I mean future president]!
One of the political hacks from IPRA came to the hospital, advised asshole of his rights and he confessed to the IPRA Idiot, too.
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Why are they advising people of their rights? They're not the police, not part of the police department, and not sent there as agents of the police department.
OT but funny.
The Tribune had an article about a dispatcher in Hillside suing the department because she was fired because she has narcolepsy. That is some funny S*it.
how can you be a dispatcher and fall asleep on the job.
O/T.... anyone know about a drive-by shooting @ the marathon gas station @ 81 & pulaski on wed afternoon???? 2 cars shooting at each other. Coppers kids car took some bullets, but luckily he was'nt hit.
3/05/2009 02:10:00 PM
That broad has wrecked more marriage than Angelina Jolie.
Can I volunteer for the Independent Police Review Authority?
Here's what I know about shooting:
1. I know the four rules of gun safety and the practical application of same.
2. I know that in a handgun shooting competition (practical carry, for instance) I will most generally finish in the middle.
3. I know that all police - that means all of you with a badge - should be able to out shoot me on the very worst day you ever had. Most cannot.
4. I've never been in a gun fight and I don't want to be in a gun fight.
5. I know that good old fashioned, everyday brawls do not go the way I see them in the movies and TV. Ditto with gun fights.
6. I know that the experienced police officer is going to be right much more often than not, and in any case knows a whole lot more about police work than I do. So, you see, I'm willing to be educated.
I'm not a cop, but here are a few questions I've heard about police and shootings from a few of my liberal acquaintances (the answers or responses are mine):
Q: Couldn't he just shoot him in the leg or something?
A: No. I couldn't make that shot, and I'm good at it.
Q: Well why didn't he fire a warning shot first?
A: Because that bullet has got to go somewhere. What goes up comes down, you see. Case in point, look what happened at Kent State.
Q: Then fire a warning shot into the ground, Mister Big Shot!
A: Well, that's not a bad idea, except that the bad guy isn't going to do that. The bad guy is trying to fire HIS warning shots into the cop.
Q: Well...
A: (continuing) That cop has a wife and children who love him. Don't you think they should get to see him tomorrow?
Q: How does the cop know the bad guy is shooting at him? Maybe he's trying to shoot over their heads or something.
A: The bad guy shouted, "I'm gonna kill you!" (cleaned up) before he started shooting.
Q: But how do they know? Maybe the bad guy was just trying to scare them. Did you ever think of that?
A: The thought had crossed my mind, yes (Lord, please forgive me for lying). But I would guess, then, that the bad guy was successful and the cops were afraid of losing their lives.
- At this point I was interrupted by several other gun and police hating liberals who started siding with the police on this shoot. All their arguments were based on emotion. "Oh come on! Haven't you ever been scared? I'd have shot him too! Well, maybe I'd have shot him."
Q: The bad guy didn't deserve to get shot! What did he do, anyway?
A: He imbibed in a half dozen or so controlled substances, then he beat his wife so badly she had to be hospitalized. He also beat his five year old son, who is now hospitalized. He beat his three year old daughter with a belt. This is the third time this week that the police have been called to his home by concerned neighbors, but this time the man decided he didn't want to go to jail. So, when the police arrived, he opened fire on the police. The police decided to return fire.
Q: So the bad guy shot first?
A: Yes, the bad guy shot first.
- long silence
Q: What about bullet proof vests? Don't police wear bullet proof vests?
A: Yes, they do. But bullet proof vests don't work like you think they do. (followed by along explanation about soft armor)
Q: So what's it like to get shot when you're wearing a vest?
A: Like being hit with a hammer wielded by a large man.
- silence
That's about all I can remember. So, do I get the job?
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think of it as an opportunity to educate the public at large. as long as these kind of investigations are done in secret without any public oversight, the public at large is right to think there is a lot of opportunity to fudge the results.
its a lot harder to believe the investigations are not upfront if there is even a little light shown on them.
long run - a very good thing. short run - maybe some confusion as part of the learning curve.
3/05/2009 02:36:00 PM
WHO THE FUCK WROTE THIS? LOEVY AND LOEVY?
Anonymous said...
If you dont do anything...then you dont have to worry. Wake up and give this toilet of a Police Department what it wants..NOTHING!
What does it take to wake some of you knuckleheads up?
3/05/2009 03:10:00 PM
Amen to that.
Back each other up always/
Off The Topic: How is it that a sgt in 016 who has 25yrs on the job and six as a sergeant gets dumped to midnites while a certain female sgt who has 8YRS ON THE JOB AND 1 AS A SGT stays on days while assigned to midnites. Oh she also has Sat and Sun off. Riccio we thought you were better then that. Well it seems as though F.V. has brought her skills to 016. And they are NOT police skills. Those from 024 know exactly what Im talking about!
Cause she is ALOT better to look at than you! Ask guy with tatoos on mids.....
OT: James Scherr resigned as chief executive officer of the United States Olympics Committee (USOC)today, effective 31 March, the week before Olympic committee (IOC) officials come to visit. He gave no reason, but earlier in the week he discussed staff cuts and a money shortage. Oops.
This has been the biggest mistake this Department has made over the years. Every single officer involved shooting should be publicly disclosed and publicly explained BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT when the investigation is completed. Instead, this department has allowed the criminal class to create an ignorant perception that officers must be about to get shot before they can shoot. And now, this cowardly command staff has passed the burden of explaining police shootings to the morons at IPRA, who just learned about the use of force 3 months ago.
Except for a very few incidents over the past 20 years, every single police shooting where the offender was killed has been 100% justified under the law of this state. The civil judgements to the contrary were all the result of biased federal judges and ignorant juries.
Fear of ridiculous lawsuits have created a department that describes every single police shooting as some kind of Western draw down, where the police officer announces his office just before the offender pulls his gun and points it at the officer, but the officer is faster to the draw and shoots down the offender first.
If an offender has a gun and is fleeing the police and refuses to drop the gun, the officer can and should shoot the offender. Yes, even in the back.
If an offender is using a gun to commit a crime, the officer can and should shoot the offender. He does not need to announce his office. He does not need to give the offender an opportunity to shoot him first.
If an offender shoots at an officer and misses, the officer does not have to wait until the offender is facing him again to shoot the offender.
But all these legal and justifiable explainations have been pushed to the side because this cowardly department wants one textbook explanation for all shootings that will appease this city's criminal class. This formula explanation has erroded the entire public's confidence in the department's truthfulness and created a public perception that officers must give offenders a "fair" gun fight in a justified shooting.
Meanwhile, the officers involved in justified shootings have been pressured to formulate their account to fit in with the cowardly command staff's ignorant explanation.
It is a miserable disgrace that this deparment has refused to stand before the public, give an articulate account of a police shooting, and explain why the shooting is justified under the law.
Thanks "Mad Jack"...Well Said BTY-You got the job
think of it as an opportunity to educate the public at large.
Well this statement can only come from someone who actually believes the bullshit they've been told by their boss while working for the IPRA.
Listen idiot, spend some time watching the news and while doing so, analyze what you are watching instead of listening to the words.
The only thing that will EVER come from putting investigations in front of the public for their scrutiny is that they'll tell YOU you're doing YOU'RE job wrong. YOU will now require investigation yourselves because YOU obviously can't do your job as well as all those ghetto genious' can.
YOU, the IPRA, will now have the great benefit of your buddies, the west side ministers and their ilk, telling you that YOU don't know what YOU'RE doing and they'll then proceed to tell you how THEY want the investigations done so they can get their 'satisfaction' rate increased.
One day you'll realize that the only thing the public wants is to FUCK the police in the ass for writing them tickets, costing them money by catching them fucking up, and locking their asses up.
The PUBLIC thinks it's their right to hold final judgement over the law and NOT that the law has final judgement over them. People can't tolerate being told what to do in ANY fashion anymore. They're lives just aren't worth shit if they can't tell someone else what to do. This is the exact reason why people don't follow lawful police orders and try to SUE to get their own way against the enforcement of the law.
It's idiots like the head of the IPRA and Daley that think the PUBLIC gets to write and or bastardize the law to fit their OWN needs at their own particular time.
You'll soon find out what it means to have the lowest form of human life telling YOU how to investigate until the results come back the way THEY want it to, regardless of how it disregards the law. Enjoy your own demise you liberal idiots.
long run - a very good thing. short run - maybe some confusion as part of the learning curve.3/05/2009 02:36:00 P
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Ok u first, Curve Boy
F.V.'s got MAAAAD Clout!!!
Off Topic!
Think this could happen in Skokie or the Federal Courthouse and the DAley Center where they make us locker our guns???? You Bet!
Good job to the ARMED detective who shot the puke dead.
Officer Safety Alert
SAN FRANCISCO – Investigators on Thursday were trying to figure out how a murder suspect sneaked a 6-inch metal spike into the Stockton courtroom where he attacked a judge with the handcrafted weapon before a detective shot him to death.
Investigators said a family member had warned them last month that David Paradiso had a weapon, but searches of his jail cell had turned up nothing.
The San Joaquin County Sheriff's office released photos of the weapon investigators said the 29-year-old Paradiso used Wednesday to attack San Joaquin Superior Court Judge Cinda Fox during a recess in his trial. Fox suffered minor injuries before a Lodi police detective shot Paradiso in the head and shoulder.
The sheriff's office said bailiffs were in the back of the courtroom at the time of the attack, ejecting Paradiso's mother and brother after the two caused a disruption.
That's when the defendant lunged at Fox, grabbing the judge from behind and striking her, witnesses said.
The spike was found in the slain suspect's hand, authorities said.
Blogger Mad Jack said...
Can I volunteer for the Independent Police Review Authority?
Mad Jack, we aren't allowed to fire warning shots anymore but if you make it to IPRA you'll surely learn those little intricacies. I do pray I never have to shoot anyone and I hope I never have to. It's not just that I don't want to do anything like that, I don't want to be second guessed like I have been in the past (non shooting related). I honestly believe that the IAD investigator and his crony made up their minds on the matter long before I even entered the building to give my side of the story. I took time for that, grieved it and got my time back but what I couldn't and won't get back was that I thought I would be treated fairly, that was not the case. I don't trust this department and I certainly don't trust this city, I really don't trust the IPRA.
Anonymous said...
OFF TOPIC!!! WARNING! WARNING!
Saturday: March 7 2009
4701 S King Drive
doors open 1800hrs show starts 1900hrs
CHICAGO HIP HOP CLASSIC!!!
Last time patrons were entering ARMED!! 002nd/003/021th dst be prepared......
3/05/2009 03:28:00 PM
why warn stay away and then just get the shovels and clean up!
Are things this bad in the rest of the US????
Great, they can even file the complaints on-line.
Anonymous said...
Who in their right mind still works in ghetto districts? If you have time on and still work in ghetto you, my friends, are losers.....
3/05/2009 12:31:00 PM
Coward!
I know this is completely STUPID question. Why can't they put some of you retired coppers on the board ?
Have any of you actually bothered to visit the IPRA website and read their reports on shooting incidents? There are only two reports up so far, but they both do a pretty good job of explaining why the officers were exactly right to shoot.
But no, it's so much more fun to talk about how this will be the end of CPD.
you are being investigated by ipra which is composed of civilians who have never been the police and don't understand our job. all they know is "little pookie" told them that the big bad police slapped them around and now you are the bad guy. officer, come on down to 35th and state with your attorney to explain yourself. yeah officer, we know that "little pookie" has 40 pinches and has been to idoc twice but we still need your statement.
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so go down and give your statement. its on the clock isn't it?
No, it opens up a window for everyone to become experts in shooting incidents, and it allows public opinion to sway investigations and lawsuits.
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This is 2009. You can't hide these incidents anymore and figure no one is going to care. It just is not going to work.
Put them out in the open and let people see them for what they really are.
in the long run it will be a good thing, even if in the short run it is mildly painful.
in any event, public opinion is already driving these lawsuits. its not just the money grubbing lawyers. those guys were around 20 years ago too. what has changed is the mood of the public.
people are frustrated with government, and LE represents government. they don't trust government (for very good reasons most of the time), so why should they trust LE who's primary function is to maintain government control?
The sheriff's office said bailiffs were in the back of the courtroom at the time of the attack, ejecting Paradiso's mother and brother after the two caused a disruption.
That's when the defendant lunged at Fox, grabbing the judge from behind and striking her, witnesses said.
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no doubt it is a complete coincidence that the family members distracted court security giving this thug his chance at the judge.
The PUBLIC thinks it's their right to hold final judgement over the law
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This is America. Thats exactly the way things are supposed to work. If the public does not like the way things are, they vote in new politicians to change things.
It is a miserable disgrace that this deparment has refused to stand before the public, give an articulate account of a police shooting, and explain why the shooting is justified under the law.
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amen. trying to cover up things makes you look guilty even if you aren't.
One of the political hacks from IPRA came to the hospital, advised asshole of his rights and he confessed to the IPRA Idiot, too.
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Why are they advising people of their rights? They're not the police, not part of the police department, and not sent there as agents of the police department.
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They are there as an agent of the state. Whether they are police or not may not be relevant.
A guy I knew used to be a states attorney's investigator. he said they usually do the same thing too. just making sure that whatever information is volunteered can be used later.
The perp's lawyer is not a cop either. No doubt he told him much the same thing.
Did you see this? Now you can file a COMPLAINT AGAINST AN OFFICER ONLINE!! Unbelievable!!
www.iprachicago.org
Boy am I glad I'm an "old" RETIRED guy!!
Be very, very, carefull out there!!
"The dynamics of the landlord ducking, the attacker following through, and the reaction time for the landlord to pull the trigger ended up with the dead guy being shot in the side once and four times in the back."
--ECS
--3/05/2009 04:05:00 PM
You bet your ass it did. Guy's trying to chop your head off. You can't turn and run, and you're not going to stand there and wait for him to jerk that machete back out of the woodwork and come at you again a second later.
Tremendous achievement to stand fast, stay on target, and hit, hit, hit.
This is a sudden, explosive fight for your life in a dirty hallway where you could trip on the torn carpet, not a decorous 18th-Century duel in the dappled sunlight on the village green.
Excellent description. THIS is what the public needs to understand.
Maybe IPRA can run through some "fun house" drills; after they have to change their shorts, maybe they'll understand a little better.
Hundreds of police involved shootings and you NEVER see one asshole from our illustrious FOP on the news defending the actions of any of the police officers involved. Instead you get the always inarticulate Monique "Ghetto Mess" Bond mumbling some nonsense that no one can understand.
DUMP DONAHUE and the whole crew the next time we get the chance. Twenty Months without a contract, WTF???? The city knows our union is a paper tiger and WE are a bunch of lemmings allowing these idiots to negotiate anything.
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