Round Tables Out
- Chicago police officers who wound or kill someone in a shooting no longer have to participate in a debriefing in which they recount details in front of police commanders and Cook County prosecutors, officials said today.
The debriefings, known as round-table discussions, have been abandoned. They had allowed police brass to quickly hear an officer's version of events and make a preliminary ruling on whether officers acted within departmental guidelines in firing their weapon.
FOP and review authority officials agreed to end round tables but disagreed on one major point: Review authority officials want to take statements from officers immediately after the shooting, while union officials want to give officers a 48-hour "cooling down" period.
The two sides hope an arbitrator will settle the dispute.
First up, fuck IPRA. Secondly, fuck IPRA again. Third, here's another great big fat pitch, right out over the center of the plate that J-Fled could hit out of the park with minimal effort - don't the feebs get 48 hours? How about other major departments? Minor departments? J-Fled is probably going to whiff on this one, too.
Discharging your weapon in defense of your life, your partner's life or the life of another is about the most stressful situation an officer undergoes. Expecting perfect recall and instant statements is ridiculous. Trained psychiatrists say it's impossible, yet IPRA and bottom-feeding lawyers are going to judge the entire incident based on shifting perceptions, faulty memories and inconsistencies among different vantage points gathered haphazardly within 2 or 3 hours of a shooting?
We're glad to see the round tables go, but we're more than a little concerned about what comes after. Especially with three separate investigations (Administrative, Criminal, IPRA) running parallel at the same time, none of which have the same goal.
Discharging your weapon in defense of your life, your partner's life or the life of another is about the most stressful situation an officer undergoes. Expecting perfect recall and instant statements is ridiculous. Trained psychiatrists say it's impossible, yet IPRA and bottom-feeding lawyers are going to judge the entire incident based on shifting perceptions, faulty memories and inconsistencies among different vantage points gathered haphazardly within 2 or 3 hours of a shooting?
We're glad to see the round tables go, but we're more than a little concerned about what comes after. Especially with three separate investigations (Administrative, Criminal, IPRA) running parallel at the same time, none of which have the same goal.
Labels: department issues
posted by SCC at 12:05 AM
94 Comments:
Keep the blinders on! If you do get into something, keep the mouth shut and call FOP. Until otherwise notified (at least for me), the blinders are on and here's your couple of parkers and here's a couple of super special case busting contact cards! To me, that's bringing in nothing without bringing anything onto yourself. FTC
There should be a debriefing, but it should consist of something in private like a chaplain, a trained counselor, maybe the partner and/or other involved officers. First things first -- is the officer alright? Give the officer time to decompress and talk it out, have something to drink, couple aspirins, get back down on the ground after the fear and "time dilation" and shock. Might want to take a hot shower and change; the guy's insides might be all over him. Fine. Then later, the FOP attorney and brass can get a statement. Everyone's getting paid for their time...what's the big tearing hurry?
Let's get human.
This is from the FOP's Update page.
Officer Involved Shootings
We had been in talks with the Department and IPRA to find a way to eliminate the round tables and all parties agreed the usefulness of the process has past.
All parties were in agreement that the officer would give a formal statement at a time after the shooting where the officer has time to relax after this stressful event. There was discussion on the university and law enforcement studies done on this issue and time periods for an officer to go to IPRA to give a formal statement at a later date. There was discussion on how the process is done in different cities as well as in other agencies around the country.
There was much discussion as to how where and to whom the officer would give a statement on the shooting scene. Unfortunately this is where these talks have degenerated to the point where the Lodge had to file a grievance and is going to expedited arbitration.
Until this grievance is resolved when an officer is involved in a shooting with a hit there will be no roundtable. As always call the F.O.P. immediately so that the on call officer can respond to the scene.
The shooting officer is required by General Order to give a brief statement to the first supervisor that arrives on the scene. The officer is not required to give any further statements until the F.O.P. representative arrives on the scene. Once your F.O.P. representative arrives the following will happen:
1. A walk through with the officer, the F.O.P. rep, and the Detectives.
2. The public safety walk through will be done with the involved officer and the OCIC.
3. IPRA can do a walk through with the OCIC, not the involved officer.
4. Go to the appropriate Detective Area for the investigation. A Lodge attorney will respond to the appropriate Area.
At some point during the investigation if IPRA wants to a statement from the officer they will confer with the OCIC. If the OCIC gives the officer a direct order to answer IPRAs questions then a formal statement will be taken with a Lodge attorney present. There can be no question that this is a compelled statement.
Our goal is to have our officers to give a statement at a later time when the stress of the shooting has subsided and to have the offender charged with a felony. We are hoping to have an arbitrator hear this issue the first week of October
SCC, in debates like this, I have to ask:
A non-badged citizen shoots an intruder in her home.
Does she get 48 hours to cool off?
Or are the cops going to press her for a detailed statement on the scene, while she's still shaking with fear, grief, and adrenaline?
For this discussion, I'll ignore the question of licensing; I know you're opposed to that, at least in the prohibitive way it's currently imposed.
But that aside: will you give us the same grace you expect?
Upon hearing this news both of the Loevys suffered incontinence as well as impotence and incompetence. Viagra was of no use. Both father and son rushed to Cook County for an immediate mojo insertion.
meanwhile, as we speak, SkinFlint Taylor is barricaded in his office, babbling incoherently. Efforts to extricate him is met with rounds of laughter by responding police units.
and R Eugene Pincham has just rolled over in his grave again. It seems he's only done on one side.
The feebs get 72 hours to make a statement. Just ask the A/4 guys who were working the day Joe Airhart got shot.
Not only did those spineless weasles run out (sound like anyone we know?) and leave him laying on the floor, the refused to give a statement until they had to.
I'd like to see round table stay and only wish it would occur 48 hrs after. If round table is replaced it could be a political which hunt to answer to all three investigations at once.
Ilana Rosenzweig pressed her 2nd in command for what they do after a shooting on the LAPD where he is from. The reply was 72 hours. Rosenzweig didn't want any cooling off period, she wants IPRA to be able to compel an officer's statement immediately after a shooting.
Fuck her, fuck IPRA, that is one reason FOP will always send out an attorney for an officer(s) after a shooting.
Someone please pick up that phone and notify FOP 24/7 immediately after a shooting. The on duty field rep and an attorney will respond ASAP.
IPRA wants us to give a statement under oath within an hour of a use of deadly force incident? I say fuck them! Fellow brother and sisters….if you are involved in a deadly force incident please, please do not let this make you hesitate. That hesitation can mean the difference between you and your partners going home or the shitbag going home. Pull that trigger until that threat is neutralized. If IPRA shows up and wants a statement from you…..ask for an ambulance. You just went trough a traumatic incident. Your body and mind are under a great deal of stress. You might even come to the point of hyperventilating. Tell the doctor at the hospital your situation. He should prescribe something to calm you down. I guarantee IPRA will not be able to take statements from an officer that’s under doctor care and under the influence of doctor prescribed medication.
Want a laugh? Read the Scum Times Article about the Stroke Farce. Bunch of arrogant asshats. Let the masses know how they don't go after "Joe Six Pack" (as stated in the article, yet 4 cars go in on a bag of weed, they actually lock people up for riding their bicycle on the sidewalk. These units need to be disbanded hey Sean, they bangers are really saying here comes the 44 cars, you're screwed for the bag I just sold you. What a joke.
Keep Working!!
One of the things that happened with Round Tables was that "witnesses" were also brought in to tell their stories.
Before they were grabbed and threatened and coached by gang leaders or greedy lawyers.
round tables out
district commanders won't need take home cars now
maybe we can use the commanders car in tact
O/T but important...
Any additional word regarding a march on City Hall by the hunted and captive tax payers of this city?
A joint effort by citizens, Police, Fire and other municipal employees who are tired of being scape goats for the criminal fiscal incompetence of crime king and the alderfools?
Politicians and flies... The more we see of the former, in higher esteem do we hold the latter...
Anything? Anyone?
SCC, you're more than welcome to play this one forward if you're so inclined.
FYI-The round table helped work out all the details of the incident. It gave the officers involved a chance to go over the incident so that any inconsistancies could be resolved. When involved in a shooting it takes some time to calm down and focus on what had just taken place.The round table was designed to help the officers and not hurt them. Before the officer/officer's even went to the round table , several walk throughs were conducted with the detectives assigned to the case. After everything was clear it was done one more time with the street Deputy. Finally there was the round table.
The problem now is that IPRA, (mainly Ileana)was put into place to find the rouge officers and charge them criminally in all these bad police shootings that the media and hood rats were calling questionable. The only problem is that to date, all police shootings have been justified and now IPRA is being questioned as to how all police shootings are justified. Ileana wanted to sit in on the round table and question the officers immediately. She wanted to be involved in the walk through process and was denied.Ileana wanted to catch officers that were still shakin up from the incident and get catch them saying the wrong thing.This is the reason that the round tables were discontinued.
Maybe there needs to be a state law giving anyone involved in a similar situation (cop or not) a 48 hour breather before they can be questioned.
Off topic..
I got to witness some good old fashioned copper humor yesterday when I was bringing prisoners to 11. A ScumTimes reporter was at the desk trying every trick in the book to get info from the desk crew about Strogers niece. Wont reveal his name, but one of the old timers fed this media whore soooo much MISinformation, it had her head spinning and clearly pissed off. A mugshot of some anonymous hysterically crying F-1 crackhead was "accidentally" left within view of this asshole reporter to have her think it was Strogers Chief of Staff. She immediately took a couple pix with her cell phone and was overheard calling in that she had an exclusive mugshot photo of the big story. Fuckin' priceless!!! It was nice to see the media whores get a taste of their own medicine. One idea, desk crew...next time go out and hang parkers on the news vans for parking in the busstop for even more fun and games.
SCC, it appears the race is on to see who gets the best 'advance publicity' from the press in their quest to become the next Supt. here.
Have you seen today's Sun-Times?
Cmdrm 'old man' Roussell appears to be in rare form in several quotes.
It brought back nightmares of Leroy Martin's 'toughest gang in town' speech. This interview had to be a production of Merit RayRay and 3M. It's too silly to be anything less.
OT who are we supporting for mayor? i think that is kind of an important issue. This IPRA thing ties into that somewaht because im thinking if meeks or emmanuel get in its going to be worse than dick daley. Im personally hoping Dart runs. Not really a big fan of him either but i will take the least evil of the bunch and at least he lives in a neighborhood WITH US as opposed to the way rich rahm and the ghetto Meeks
There's good research that says someone who's been through a traumatic experience cannot accurately recount that experience for a day or two. Simple as that.
IPRA's just afraid that they're going to lose a rich source of violations that arise when a shaken officer is debriefed within minutes, and then again later when he's functioning better. I've seen it. They do it. The shooting is good, no problem there, yet IPRA enthusiastically jumps in and nails an officer for making a false police report.
It's all about the numbers.
djmoortex: if a citizen shoots someonr and the police are questioning them, all they have to do is ask for a lawyer and the questioning will stop.
Remember one thing...any statement that is given can be used in a criminal trial or civil case. We do have rights! The statements are audio recorded by IPRA. Make sure you say that you are giving the statement because you are ordered to and that you are giving the statement under extreme duress. Any statement made under duress is not admissable in any court. WE DO HAVE RIGHTS AGAINST SELF INCRIMINATION.
Experienced homicide detective
How about the Garrity vs New Jersey ruling? Can we use that as shooting officers ?
To djmooretx:
Ever hear of your fifth amendment rights? You don't have to say shit to anyone...we on the other hand, are compelled to give a statement or we will lose our jobs or if IPRA gets a hard on for you they will request the Cook County ASA look at the "evidence" that they found which is a farce because IPRA has no legal investigative authority and is not a public saftety agenency and its employees are all hacks that have one goal in mind-fuck over whoever for whatever they can. Know what the arguement is before you open your can. Asshat.
"There should be a debriefing, but it should consist of something in private like a chaplain, a trained counselor, maybe the partner and/or other "
Nothing stays private unless its a conversation with an attorney1
"IPRA wants us to give a statement under oath within an hour of a use of deadly force incident?"
We dont lie under oiath! but I'll be damned if I remember anything right away!>
Nobody has gone to the fed pen for not remembering! But if you lie you r fuckd
SCC, in debates like this, I have to ask:
A non-badged citizen shoots an intruder in her home.
Does she get 48 hours to cool off?
Or are the cops going to press her for a detailed statement on the scene, while she's still shaking with fear, grief, and adrenaline?
For this discussion, I'll ignore the question of licensing; I know you're opposed to that, at least in the prohibitive way it's currently imposed.
But that aside: will you give us the same grace you expect?
10/05/2010 12:53:00 AM
The non badged citizen has the right to say nothing!
djmooretx said...
SCC, in debates like this, I have to ask:
A non-badged citizen shoots an intruder in her home.
Does she get 48 hours to cool off?
Or are the cops going to press her for a detailed statement on the scene, while she's still shaking with fear, grief, and adrenaline?
For this discussion, I'll ignore the question of licensing; I know you're opposed to that, at least in the prohibitive way it's currently imposed.
But that aside: will you give us the same grace you expect?
10/05/2010 12:53:00 AM
___________________________________
You have that grace. It's called the right to remain silent! We do not have that right. In other words, your right is not to say anything.
This is for COMPELLED statements in regards to our internal investigation regarding whether the department policies were followed, not one in which there is a determination whether or not we violated the law. We simply do not have the right to state, "I do not wish to make a statement" when it comes to an internal investigation.
Big difference there pally. The citizen inquiry you spoke of is strictly whether or not a crime was committed not whether they violated a department policy.
So yes, the un-badged citizen can state, I do not wish to make a statement at this time and I wish to speak to a lawyer.
We do not have that right. It's apples and oranges.
We have the right against self-incrimination but we don't have the right against not answering every question asked by IPRA in determining whether or not we followed rules and regulations in a shooting.
Off topic...is it true that a certain female Sgt. in 001 who plays the race card everytime she fucks up(which is on a daily bases), is in trouble with I.A.D.?...word is ...she gave her cell phone # to a certain narcotic dealer in the district...and told him to call her any time a certain officer would stop him...she also supposedly told the same narcotic dealer to call I.P.R.A.on the same officer , if he wanted to stop being harrassed...now mind you, this narcotic dealer just got taken out by narcotics...guess what he might be telling them?...UH OH...can this finally be the end of this crooked ass Sgt?...lets wait and see.
If it happens I will like most should immediately have chest pains to the hospital cannot talk,sorry but these jags are not going to get anything from me until I am represented, the bosses tell you "we got your back kid", true but then the knife turns as they "forget" they said anything like that! "A boss is a boss of course of course never heard of a talking boss,I am Mr. Brown"!
The post about requesting an ambulance is correct. Immediately tell your supervisor you want to go to the hospital! Every shooting is a very tramatic event in my opinion. You want to collect your thoughts before you go on the record! B-Safe my brothers and sisters........
Anonymous said...
Ilana Rosenzweig pressed her 2nd in command for what they do after a shooting on the LAPD where he is from. The reply was 72 hours. Rosenzweig didn't want any cooling off period, she wants IPRA to be able to compel an officer's statement immediately after a shooting.
Fuck her, fuck IPRA, that is one reason FOP will always send out an attorney for an officer(s) after a shooting.
Someone please pick up that phone and notify FOP 24/7 immediately after a shooting. The on duty field rep and an attorney will respond ASAP.
10/05/2010 07:37:00 AM
Bullshit Rosenwieg is from La County Sherrifs she knows the deal.......... get it right you o you are part of the problem
"Expecting perfect recall and instant statements is ridiculous. Trained psychiatrists say it's impossible..."
Had a bad night once; a week later, I was still saying "Austin" when I meant "Central."
...or was it the other way around? (grin)
Always exercise your Constitutional Rights. Don't say ANYTHING you might regret later. Remember, you are under duress, even though you might not realize it.
Does that mean no more pizza courtesy of the FOP? You just don't know how good it tastes after a Police involved shooting. Man this job really sucks.
I don't know SCC, I always thought it was a good idea to get the alleged witnesses before a round table with Police personnel and ASA present as soon as possible.
If their statements were bullshit it was much easier to discredit them in front of everyone instead of waiting until they could make up a story after talking to bottom feeders.
Regarding the involved Police Officer(s), if he/she/they were feeling ill statements could be taken from him/her/them at a later time.
Just remember, this job is not worth going to jail for!
djmooretx said...
SCC, in debates like this, I have to ask:
A non-badged citizen shoots an intruder in her home.
Does she get 48 hours to cool off?
Or are the cops going to press her for a detailed statement on the scene, while she's still shaking with fear, grief, and adrenaline?
For this discussion, I'll ignore the question of licensing; I know you're opposed to that, at least in the prohibitive way it's currently imposed.
But that aside: will you give us the same grace you expect?
But a citizen has the right not to give a statement. We don't ...
OT re: the mobile stroke force article on the suntimes: not once did i see them in 007 help the beat cars shut down parties. saw tru a couple times but thats another story. good time to add more p.o.'s to that unit now that it's getting cold and agg batts and 0110's decrease during the colder months. a few months from now, maybe in february or march they'll be saying "see, i told you we bring the numbers down"
2. The public safety walk through will be done with the involved officer and the OCIC.
What is a public safety walk through and who is the OCIC?
OT:
Some positive press for once:
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/police.officers.honored.2.1947673.html
Congrats to Det. Ciccola!
The awards ceremony also recognized the heroic acts of Officers Christopher L. Davis, Brian D. Gaffney, Robert A. Ontiveros, Robert J. McGee, Darin L. Macon, Sean M. Lewis, Ricky Rivera, Adis Klincevic, Tony Ramirez, Thomas E. Olsen and Ryan M. Delaney, and Sgt. Michael G. O'Malley
Officer and Alejandro Valadez and Sgt. Alan J. Haymaker received posthumous honors.
I guess it would be too much to ask for IPRA and any other group of Daley appointed idiots to read up on the subject and agree that 48 hours is the minimum required for recall of events.
At least two sleep cycles are needed to get over 50% recall of traumatic events. The research is there, but our useless city hacks are too stupid to pick up on that.
off topic: blackhawks take the ice in colorado thursday night at 2100 hrs chicago time and versus will carry the broadcast---- scc, thank you for the threads last season as many officers are huge hockey fans... GO BLACKHAWKS.....
What bothers me is they claim that one of the reasons they are getting rid of the "round table" is bacause the officers involved were most always deemed justified in the shooting. So, what they are saying is they don't believe us and are looking to hang someone? Funny- they strive for us to be perfect- and in a situation that is as serious as that, we are right 99.9% of the time. But that's a RED FLAG? Are you fucking kidding me? God forbid I get in another shooting- I will tell IPRA to fuck off- if they won't fuck off- get me an ambulance- I am feeling faint from all the undo pressure! Combined pays $300 for the ride too!
But that aside: will you give us the same grace you expect?
****************************
What you, and all other non-police fail to recognize, deliberately or not, is that YOU, the civilian are merely asked what happened for a single preliminary investigation and you are under NO obligation to talk to anyone at any time and you certainly are NOT in threat of losing your livlihood because you forgot something.
OTOH, police officers ARE being investigated by multiple departments at the same time, two of which are more than happy to feed them to the wolves if they think it will benefit them personally regardless of true guilt, and ONE of those departments has a single responsibility to find a police officer guilty of some petty rule violations at a minimum.
THAT'S the difference between the police shooting someone, and YOU shooting someone. YOU can refuse to talk about it and make everyone around you have to work to find out what happened, answering only when an attorney tells you what to say. POLICE have to answer all questions without protection of any attorney and are subject to being put on a bread line because some civilian thinks they violated some petty work rule.
Case closed.
My chest hurts, I need to go to the hospital. Please may I have some narcotics to calm me down.
to djmooretx
the answer of course is yes all any citizen needs to do is state "no i want to see my lawyer" and all questioning will stop and never continue unless the citizen requests it to.
round tables may be out but favortism is still in: how come if one of us goes to court on company time for a civil matter, IAD is on our ass. But wnen one of them (IAD) went to court on a civil matter numerous times against his brother cop, nothing happened.
I am Mike Chasen, I invented the round table, I did, I did. Just ask any of the lowly detectives that used to work for me.. I did invent the round table, I did.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/breaking/Two-Cops-Accused-of-Robbing-an-Undercover-Officer.html?dr
Anonymous said...
The feebs get 72 hours to make a statement. Just ask the A/4 guys who were working the day Joe Airhart got shot.
Not only did those spineless weasles run out (sound like anyone we know?) and leave him laying on the floor, the refused to give a statement until they had to.
10/05/2010 02:50:00 AM
The FBI refused to make the agents involved available to CPD detectives for 72 hours. FBI policy. Unknown whether they gave statements to FBI during those 72 hours.
Anonymous said...
2. The public safety walk through will be done with the involved officer and the OCIC.
What is a public safety walk through and who is the OCIC?
10/05/2010 01:29:00 PM
Ask your sergeant or watch commander.
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Ilana Rosenzweig pressed her 2nd in command for what they do after a shooting on the LAPD where he is from. The reply was 72 hours. Rosenzweig didn't want any cooling off period, she wants IPRA to be able to compel an officer's statement immediately after a shooting.
Fuck her, fuck IPRA, that is one reason FOP will always send out an attorney for an officer(s) after a shooting.
Someone please pick up that phone and notify FOP 24/7 immediately after a shooting. The on duty field rep and an attorney will respond ASAP.
10/05/2010 07:37:00 AM
Bullshit Rosenwieg is from La County Sherrifs she knows the deal.......... get it right you o you are part of the problem
10/05/2010 12:01:00 PM
2nd in command numbnuts. He sided with CPD to her chagrin. The whole fucking organization is the problem. I am on the way out, soon, very soon. And I won't miss this crap one bit.
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/Cop-Trashes-His-Million-Dollar-Home-104353638.html?dr
in debates like this, I have to ask:
A non-badged citizen shoots an intruder in her home.
Does she get 48 hours to cool off?
Or are the cops going to press her for a detailed statement on the scene, while she's still shaking with fear, grief, and adrenaline?
For this discussion, I'll ignore the question of licensing; I know you're opposed to that, at least in the prohibitive way it's currently imposed.
But that aside: will you give us the same grace you expect?
10/05/2010 12:53:00 AM
hey jagbones; all u ahve to say is i want an attorney and thats it till then 4 u.. we in turn will be ordered to give one... so don t compare apples to oranges
To 10/05/2010 12:53:00 AM
Are you really that clueless or was your comment fueled by alcohol?
What bothers me is they claim that one of the reasons they are getting rid of the "round table" is bacause the officers involved were most always deemed justified in the shooting. So, what they are saying is they don't believe us and are looking to hang someone?
***********8
What they said was that the officers are deemed justified, but then the city is still paying out lots of $$ in lawsuits.
What THEY fail to realize is one has absolutely nothing to do with the other... Juries almost always find against the city because the city is looked at as the BIG RICH MONSTER, taking advantage of the poor and downtrodden, has nothing to do with the facts of the case. Civil litigation is far removed from criminal or even employment law... but the "civilian" populace who really want to crucify each police officer involved in a shooting have no idea of the reality of the situation.
Why would any police officer in his right mind shoot someone without being justified according to the law and the department policy? It is certainly not worth the trouble no matter how pure the shooting is... it is a major hassle, the most minor of discrepancies causes a multitude of questions/possibilities for punishment... Unfortunately, because of this, our officers sometimes shy away from shooting, and they pay for it in other ways.. Contrary to public opinion, officers only shoot in a fraction of the instances where they would be perfectly justified in shooting a subject....
mobile stroke force
*******
come on, they are too special to help the measly beat cop.... all they do is create chaos and crime by wasting time picking up a few small bags of dope, so they can have all of them come in to a district (of THEIR CHOICE, against department policy) and spend 4 hours or more processing one stinking arrest, something that one guy should be able to do in about 30 minutes.
They are a waste of manpower and resources, no matter what the " " (fill in your own word) in charge may say or even think.
OT --
Lake In The Hills always struck me as a moneyed retirement spot -- airline pilots, ex-military officers, etc. Look at it today --
LITH man accused of driving drunk with kids in car
"CRYSTAL LAKE – A Lake in the Hills man is accused of driving drunk with four children passengers on a license suspended from a previous DUI arrest that allowed him to drive only a car with an alcohol monitoring device.
"Ruben Rodriguez, 42, of 416 Prides Run, was charged with driving under the influence of alcohol, driving with a suspended license, four counts of endangering the life of a child, improper lane use, speeding, and using an electronic communication device while driving.
"According to Crystal Lake Police, an officer observed Rodriguez about 5:22 p.m. Sunday driving on Route 14 in an erratic manner, typing on a cell phone and speeding.
"The officer stopped Rodriguez, who appeared to be impaired and was transporting four children between the ages of 11 and 12, police said.
"Rodriguez's license had been suspended from a past arrest for allegedly driving drunk and he had been issued a monitoring device driving permit. This allowed him to only drive a vehicle equipped with a Breath Alcohol Ignition Interlock Device, and the vehicle he was driving on Sunday did not have it."
http://www.nwherald.com/
articles/2010/10/05/
58742917/index.xml
You can't go far enough out to get away from this anymore without running right into it again...
OT--
Stroger aide charged with defrauding county of $300,000
Boy, did Carla Oglesby look good in cuffs today. She's resigned her post, and her parents have been unable to make bail for her.
Her whole snug little world just ended.
Carla will be marching out to breakfast with the ho's in the Women's Division -- and a nastier, more foul-mouthed bunch you never saw.
It's a pleasant thought.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/2774390,stroger-oglesby-arrest-100510.article
"A mugshot of some anonymous hysterically crying F-1 crackhead was "accidentally" left within view of this a__hole reporter to have her think it was Stroger's Chief of Staff. She immediately took a couple pix with her cell phone and was overheard calling in that she had an exclusive mugshot photo of the big story."
--10/05/2010 09:04:00 AM
A. If the woman whose picture was used in the news finds out about this, she's just hit the Ghetto Lottery big-time on the TV station. Damages? Whoo!
B. Carla Oglesby herself didn't look any different from your description on TV just now...
Thanks for those who pointed out that in these investigations, cops do not have the right to remain silent; I take it they give it up when they take the badge. I did not know that.
That being the case, I absolutely support a cooling off period before giving compelled testimony.
It also means that any LEO who would continue to press a self-defense shooter after they've declared a desire to remain silent gets no sympathy for me if the tables are turned.
I know the cops here are honest and would do no such thing, but I keep running across accounts of such dealings.
"There should be a debriefing, but it should consist of something in private like a chaplain, a trained counselor, maybe the partner and/or other "
"Nothing stays private unless it's a conversation with an attorney!"
--10/05/2010 10:30:00 AM
Yeah, you got me there. I was thinking like a decent human being for a minute. No percentage in that in this town.
In this day and age only an uneducated idiot would demand to have an accounting from a participant in a shooting without allowing time for decompressing, bleeding off of the adrenaline and, first and foremost, a trip to the ER for the "uninjured" officer to insure that he/she is not about to stroke out with elevated blood pressure, etc.
I guess that is the root problem here, you ARE dealing with uneducated idiots.
Something very important to remember after you're involved in a shooting: DO NOT TALK TO IPRA WHILE YOU'RE ON THE SCENE. Most Watch Commanders know to keep them away from you, so does a good detective. If they come up to you and tell you that you have to give them a statement while you're on the scene, and they will, just tell them you will...later. Then walk away. You do not need to talk to them out there. Make sure your representative from FOP is notified and on the scene.
I wonder if IPRA is actually legal??? Maybe that organization should be challenged in a Court. Credentials? Investigative Authority? What? Seriously? Some sham created by shortshanks.
Off Topic ...not need for the Ro Giambalvo legislation since this one covers everyone.
House Passes LEOSA Amendments Bill!!! 09/29/2010
Chuck Canterbury, National President of the Fraternal Order of Police, hailed action in the U.S. House of Representatives, which passed S. 1132, the "Law Enforcement Officers' Safety Act Improvements Act," by voice vote under a suspension of the rules.
Senator Patrick J. Leahy (D-VT), the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, was the sponsor of S. 1132. With the active support of the Judiciary Committee's Ranking Member, Senator Jefferson B. Sessions III (R-AL), the legislation was favorably reported by that committee in March of this year and passed by unanimous consent in May.
"I want to express my deep appreciation to Chairman Leahy and Majority Leader Hoyer for their commitment to this issue," Canterbury said. "Both of these gentlemen are FOP champions who worked very hard, first to win passage in the Senate and then to get the bill on the calendar for action in the House before the end of the regular session. They deserve a lot of the credit for today's victory."
The House companion bill, H.R. 3752, as introduced by Representative J. Randy Forbes (R-VA) and championed by Representatives Steny H. Hoyer (D-MD), the House Majority Leader, and Lamar S. Smith (R-TX), Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee. Representative Robert C. Scott (D-VA), Chairman of the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security and an opponent of the original LEOSA, had previously announced his intention to hold the bill in subcommittee, which would have killed the bill for the year. FOP members in his home State and District, as well as continuous contact with the FOP's Washington staff and personal contact with Chairman Leahy eventually prevailed on Rep. Scott to release the bill for a floor vote.
"Many of our retired officers are facing significant hurdles because some States have failed to implement the law as intended by Congress. This bill, which the President has promised to sign, will help them overcome those obstacles," Canterbury said.
The bill, which was crafted in large part by the FOP, was given a high priority by the organization. No other law enforcement organizations or police groups took played any role in its successful passage despite intense interest in the bill on the part of active and retired officers. The legislation will improve certain provisions of the Law Enforcement Officers' Safety Act (LEOSA), especially with respect to retired law enforcement officers, and will make clear that law enforcement officers employed by the Amtrak and Federal Reserve Police Departments, as well as those employed by the executive branch of the Federal Government who are classified as a GS-0083 branch—especially the U.S. Department of Defense—meet the definition of "qualified law enforcement officer" in current law. The bill would also lower the aggregate years of service needed to meet the definition of "qualified retired law enforcement officer" from fifteen (15) to ten (10) and removes confusing language related to that same definition.
The bill will be transmitted to the President to be signed into law.
"Round Tables Out"---
King Arthur does not approve.
OT but there should have been a roundtable on this scumbag instead of a clemency hearing:
---
Fraternal Order of Police Chicago Lodge #7
Current Update
October 5, 2010
Clemency Hearing Ronnie "Mad Dog" Carrasquillo was sentenced to between 200 and 600 years in prison for killing Chicago Police Officer Terrence Loftus in 1976.
Loftus was trying to break up a gang fight on the city's North Side when he was shot to death. Carrasquillo has filed a petition for executive clemency. A public hearing will be held on Friday, October 8, 2010 at the State of Illinois building located at 100 W. Randolph, Chicago, IL. The hearing is scheduled for 9:00 am in Room 9-034. Carrasquillo has had support from some noteworthy public officials in past attempts to gain parole, including U.S. Congressman Luis Gutierrez. The Lodge is encouraging all members, active or retired, to make every effort to attend this hearing. Your presence does make a difference.
---
Again, the hearing is Friday, October 8, 2010 at the State of Illinois building located at 100 W. Randolph, Chicago, IL.
The hearing is scheduled for 9:00 am in Room 9-034
no worries...IPRA's newest supervising investigator is the daughter of two PO's and mom PO works in HQ with masters
*******OT******
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/2772930,CST-NWS-strikeforce05.article
More cops moving to mobile strike teams
What if the offender is not dead and the officer waits 48 hours to give a statement?
Do we release the offender until the officer tells an ASA what happened?
A juvenile offender must be charged in 24 hours. How can he be charged without an officer's statement?
Police related shootings are always legally justified. The fact is that officers never have any intent to commit a crime when they respond to these life and death situations. They simply react to what a criminal does.
Some shootings may violate the ridiculous policies this department has put in place over the past 10 years. But many of these policies void themselves when the officer's life is in danger, which basically sums up every single shooting.
If you are in a shooting, these minor discrepancies with our nonsense general orders is the least of your concerns. Simply explain what happened. Unless you accidentally fired, the bottom line is, you were justified.
have you forgotten, iad takes care of its own
SCC. I have wanted to ask this for years. Why are the posters majority of the people posting on this on this site unable to spell rogue, lose and morale?
MAN, the Roussel article sure sounds familiar/maybe the media should look up the articles when TRU first started. It sounds like the exact same mission and the exact same goals that Cline had? Actually, maybe the media should look up the fact the roussell worked in TRU and none of these ideas were his.
To hell with IPRA and their compelling of an officer to talk.
Say you're not feeling well and demand hospitalization.
If you are refused medical treatment, they are fucked.
Let a nurse give you something to calm you down....
no statement can be taken from a person medicated !
Thanks for those who pointed out that in these investigations, cops do not have the right to remain silent; I take it they give it up when they take the badge. I did not know that.
If a police officer is the object of a criminal investigation, he has the same constitutional right against self incrimination as any citizen of the United States. Until this is clear in your heads, it would be a good idea to avoid any shooting incidents.
If a police officer is the object of a criminal investigation, he has the same constitutional right against self incrimination as any citizen of the United States. Until this is clear in your heads, it would be a good idea to avoid any shooting incidents.
Try telling that to Ardaleen (sp?) whose compelled testimony was used against him in criminal proceedings.
Now we will not have to see the IPRA Investigators fall asleep anymore at the round table during the debriefing. I am 100% serious! I didn't believe it when I saw it. Drooled on the arm even.
Exit stage right!
If you are ordered to give a statement and do not have representation with you simply request an Ambulance and relate you are having chest pains and you are requesting to go to the Hospital.
No exempt in their right mind is going to deny you medical aid. Then tell the hospital staff you do not want to them in the room as you feel more stressed with them in your presence.
CPD Detective
Anonymous said...
If a police officer is the object of a criminal investigation, he has the same constitutional right against self incrimination as any citizen of the United States. Until this is clear in your heads, it would be a good idea to avoid any shooting incidents.
Try telling that to Ardaleen (sp?) whose compelled testimony was used against him in criminal proceedings.
10/05/2010 11:52:00 PM
True enough about your right against self incrimination. However, it may also violate your rules of employment and your employer might terminate you for it.
You don't have the same rules in the CPD. They can compel your statement. You do have the fundamental criminal right to refuse, you also may be looking for work if you exercise that right.
You should exercise that right only if the choices are staying employed or staying out of prison.
It also means that any LEO who would continue to press a self-defense shooter after they've declared a desire to remain silent gets no sympathy for me if the tables are turned.
I know the cops here are honest and would do no such thing, but I keep running across accounts of such dealings.
10/05/2010 05:33:00 PM
Really DJ? You keep "running across" accounts of P.O.s running roughshod over self defense shooters? I'm in the business and I can't remember seeing all these stories you keep "running across".
As Police Officer, I and my fellow Police Officers are thrilled to chalk one up to self defense. In fact, I am sure you see them posted on this blog. We love them.
On the other hand, if we believe otherwise, then we investigate. It's kind of our job.
Down time, cooling off period, what the fuck is that?! My God, you guys are the police. If you can't tell why you shot or killed someone that was trying to hurt you or someone else, then maybe you shouldn't have done it. If you are distraught over shooting some asshole that tried to hurt you or someone else, then maybe you chose the wrong job. This job isn't school, its real life!
I only remember one copper going to jail for a shooting and that was back in I think 1978. His excuse for killing the guy was "I was feeling policey"! If thats the best you can come up with, maybe you belong in jail.
Before the f.o.p. and before the round table it took twelve hours to complete this bullshit. You had to tell the story to almost everybody that showed up on the scene. Sergeant, field lieutenant,watch commander, detectives, states atty, ops, street deputy and the deputy's driver! All individually!!
There is nothing wrong with "I shot him and this is why"
Now, all you school children in the crowd can jump all over me.
Who was the SAC when Airhart got shot and refused to allow any of his men to be interviewed?
As usual the point is lost in hysteria. If a person, even a police officer, is the suspect in a criminal case and is being questioned the Miranda Warnings are required. Once that happens silence is golden. Provide no evidence. The Department can not legally coerce a statement, although they may try. Take the suspension. When all is said and done the aggrieved party will be made whole. This issue was litigated 30 years age. The CPD culture of ignoring the rules and the SOP's in favor of the shortcut because it's all "BS" leads to problems. When it's time to pay attention, do.
By the way, in the case mentioned the charges were dismissed because the evidence was illegally obtained.
David Snethen said...
Down time, cooling off period, what the fuck is that?! My God, you guys are the police. If you can't tell why you shot or killed someone that was trying to hurt you or someone else, then maybe you shouldn't have done it. If you are distraught over shooting some asshole that tried to hurt you or someone else, then maybe you chose the wrong job. This job isn't school, its real life!
I only remember one copper going to jail for a shooting and that was back in I think 1978. His excuse for killing the guy was "I was feeling policey"! If thats the best you can come up with, maybe you belong in jail.
Before the f.o.p. and before the round table it took twelve hours to complete this bullshit. You had to tell the story to almost everybody that showed up on the scene. Sergeant, field lieutenant,watch commander, detectives, states atty, ops, street deputy and the deputy's driver! All individually!!
There is nothing wrong with "I shot him and this is why"
Now, all you school children in the crowd can jump all over me.
10/06/2010 08:16:00 AM
Boy, truer words were never spoken and it is good to hear them from one who knows. Some goof in this thread even wants the Chaplin involved. What the fuck?
Dave is right about the purpose of the roundtable. It was to eliminate the repeating of the story over and over. That is where the danger of a mistake lies. On the other hand, I have been on many roundtables and for the most part they are a waste of time. It is seldom that an adverserial witness is available immediately after a shooting. generally they come out of the woodwork at a later date.
Dave is also correct in saying that there are almost no instances of a PO being charged criminally in a police shooting. The fact that the city pays civilly has no bearing on that. In fact the real reason for the mind numbing, over investigated procedures is civil liability. Hopefully, finding all the bullets and their holes will prevent some asshole from saying he was hit by a stray shot.
If involved please remember to always, no matter who talks to you, give exactly the same version of what happened. Remember also that you must assist in finding any bad guys that may still be at large. I suppose it is also advisable to remember that if you are totally wrong, and know it, it is best to keep your mouth totally shut. Job preservation would then be secondary.
If there was no round-table back in 03 - Schalk and Bogucki wouldn't be emptying their pockets for low lifes
8:49 AM
Jody "J-Fled" WEIS
R.I.P.: Det. Joe Airhart
Can we still get the Pizza?
Been in three shootings on duty during my time on the job. The first two were before the implementation of the round table. Snethen is 100 percent correct about the original purpose. Giving all those seperate statements took hours and opened you up to the possibility of making contradicting statements out of fatigue alone. The concept of being too traumatized to talk is ridiculous we are the police and should be able to do our job
SCC. I have wanted to ask this for years. Why are the posters majority of the people posting on this on this site unable to spell rogue, lose and morale?
10/05/2010 10:02:00 PM
Good job moron! Why don't you try asking that one again genius? At least you spelled all the words right though!! Now it's time to work on sentence structure.
Our bosses took us out to lunch at Bar Louie after a shooting round table.
Thanks
SCC. I have wanted to ask this for years. Why are the posters majority of the people posting on this on this site unable to spell rogue, lose and morale?
10/05/2010 10:02:00 PM
Good job moron! Why don't you try asking that one again genius? At least you spelled all the words right though!! Now it's time to work on sentence structure.
Thanks for the lesson on sentence structure. Usually my sentences run on for paragraphs. Glad you are so understanding of the concepts of sarcasm and silliness.
There is no right to have a job as a cop. Part of the deal when you take any job is the employer gets to set the rules.
You are not being compelled to make a statement in such a case that has anything to do with any right what so ever.
I think it sucks to be expected tell what happened before you have a chance to calm down but that is what cops expect the average citizen who may have been involved in a self defense shooting to do. Cops call it suspicious if that citizen wants a lawyer present and try and con the poor guy who is likely to be an emotional wreck into talking.
OTOH, cops claim they have all this special cop training that makes them special so they have special rules that only apply to cops. Bull. The rules should apply equally to all.
It's a double standard that needs to go away. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Anonymous 10/05/2010 08:33:00 PM:
Police related shootings are always legally justified.
Does that include cases where a no-knock raid on a dope house led to a gunfight with the residents - and the police had the wrong address?
The fact is that officers never have any intent to commit a crime when they respond to these life and death situations. They simply react to what a criminal does.
Or perceived "criminal", like Amadou Diallo in NYC. The Diallo shooting was IMO an honest mistake by officers who were surprised in a dangerous area. Diallo is still dead.
Three months ago there was the shooting of Erik Scott by the Las Vegas Police Department. Scott, a 38-year-old former Army officer (and CCW licensee), was shopping in Costco with his fianceé when a store clerk saw his concealed holster under his shirt. The clerk made a hysterical phone call to LVPD about a drug-crazed man with a gun, and LVPD's response ended with three officers confronting Scott with drawn guns as he came out of the store, all shouting contradictory orders - then shooting him 7 times (4 times in the back).
Mysteriously, all four of the video surveillance cameras covering the store entrance malfunctioned - according to the LVPD.
Was this deliberate murder? No. Was it gross incompetence, verging on criminal negligence, followed by an obvious cover-up? Sure looks like it - and not just to me. And definitely not "legally justified".
I support the police. I cheer when a lowlife is removed from society
permanently. (Though such incidents are dangerous to police and thus undesirable.) My blood boils when demogogues set out to lynch officers for actions that were fully justified or at worst honest error - and craven officials go along.
But great authority must be balanced by full responsibility. Mistakes must be answered for, not covered up. To say "shootings are always legally justified" is to deny the possibility of error and exclude responsibility.
Just A Civilian (who really does support the police, but not on the rare occasions when they are wrong)
10/07/2010 05:06:00 PM
Blogger Rich Rostrom said...
Anonymous 10/05/2010 08:33:00 PM:
Police related shootings are always legally justified.
------
A good rule of thumb on police shootings, if you weren't there and/or, you don't have access to all the evidence including the copper, you don't know what happened.
I'm not singling you out, I mean that for everybody, coppers and civilians. The media NEVER knows what happens.
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