Not Privileged Conversation
So while the Department was busy pulling all the hard drives for every single vehicle that was on scene of the Poice shooting on Erie the other night, they weren't just pulling video/audio to defend a lawsuit - they were pulling audio to actively screw the officer(s) - from the comments:
- They pulled the police cars that the officers were sitting in while talking to their fop reps to see if the camera mics picked up the conversations. That's not a protected conversation. The fop needs to start sending an attorney out on every shooting since charging the officer is the new norm.
This commentator hits the nail exactly on the head - the FOP better start sending out lawyers to shooting scenes. A Union Rep conversation is not privileged in any way at all, and if the city wants the audio out of your squad, it will be 100% admissible against you and your interests.
This makes our suggested Disclaimer re-vamp all the more important and necessary. We as a group have to start thinking more about job preservation and remaining free from a political drive to deny you your Rights and potentially, your Freedom.
This makes our suggested Disclaimer re-vamp all the more important and necessary. We as a group have to start thinking more about job preservation and remaining free from a political drive to deny you your Rights and potentially, your Freedom.
Labels: info for the police
posted by SCC at 12:33 AM
43 Comments:
Never talk about anything in a department vehicle that you wouldn't feel comfortable about saying in public. If anything, get into the private vehicle of the FOP rep. And don't forget to turn off mics or remove them when discussing a shooting incident in private.
Anything you say will be used against you in a criminal prosecution, a civil suit and a C.R. to fire you, if the powers that be need to throw you under the bus.
Say nothing without asking for an attorney. Since we're the new bad guys, it makes sense.
Wow ! This shit just gets better and better every fucking day .
So how many cops are worth one politicians career ?
I think we might end up finding out .
Get and stay fetal boys , a shit storm this way comes .
Step one is easy; avoid discussing shootings in or around any department supervisors, vehicles or IPRA representatives until the FOP starts sending out legal counsel.
Step two is difficult; trying to get it through the thick skulls of the powers that be down on Washington that their current gameplan (what it is nobody knows), that they need to start protecting officers rights.
What makes you think they were pulling the audio to specifically listen to the calls to the FOP reps? Sounds like paranoia and jumping to conclusions. Relax, and don't say anything you don't want to hear on TV or in court while the mic is recording.
We have many officers working these days that have a law degree. I wonder if it would be possible to put some system in place, informally, such that when an officer has a weapon discharge incident, that officer can give a buck to a copper on scene with a JD, have representation, and therefore not be required to answer questions, or at least cause those questions to then be privileged.
Not sure if its possible, but may be worth looking into.
listen to me and listen good. If you get into a shooting, get with your supervisor and request to go to the hospital. After that intense situation I have no doubt you will be feeling shortness of breath, tightness in your chest and a lightheaded feeling.. Yea, I'm sure it's just the adrenaline but please be safe and get checked out immediatly... Also, with you under the care of a doctor nobody can come question you about the shooting. And will not have your gear/microphone with you. A supervisor, fop rep and appropriate detectives may come talk with you but if you are in a hospital IPRA MUST wait until you are fully discharged to talk to you or give any type of statement... Make sure you remember this for yourself and any other officer that you see get into a shooting like this...
You need to get more protections written into your contracts. Lot's of departments have mandatory cooling off periods before the officer can be interviewed.
I'm pretty sure Herbert was on the scene but I could be wrong but I don't think so.
Audio conversations that are recorded by any police vehicle system and by the body camera systems can be the subject of a FOIA by the media, lawyers and activists.
If you are in a domestic dispute with your significant other your conversations with your partner can be the subject of a FOIA.
If you are involved in a civil rights law suit Loevy & Loevy and Flint can subpoena all conversations you had in your vehicle for months to try to find you said something inappropriate.
IAD and IPRA can review these tapes to find if you used inappropriate language.
You have no privacy!
Except for any type of force situations, ALL of our actions should be done with job protection in mind.
Only write expired plates/no insurance and no D/L. None of these can be disputed in court.
Only arrest upon signed complaint.
No more foot chases. No more vehicular pursuits.
No more "running into traffic" reckless conducts.
No more narcotics arrests. Your reasonable suspicion/probable cause to arrest are no longer believed-and the public wants narcotics legalized anyways.
Finally, no more activity of any kind that is based upon your judgement. Your judgement is no longer valid to the public, and it is our judgement calls that are most heavily scrutinized.
If they can't send a lawyer, how about a priest?
All you hard chargers should think before talking to FOP.
Ask what happen with FOP and Former Officer Krupa in 10th Didtrict.
Krupa got fired, FOP rep was accused of distracting investigation into misconduct by Krupa.
The Department determined FOP conversations are not privilege. And can be used to investigate accused.
Krupa may or may not have commited misconduct but FOP involvement caused microscope and heat being
turned Krupas way. So he got fired and FOP had nothing to say
Simple, Do not talk with FOP Rep's. Only with Attorney that is only Privileged conversation.
Who at Fop has the experience that any of us have confidence that they could help us if we were involved in a shooting? The rep that came out on the McDonald shooting was not helpful at all. Many of those officers are going to be fired because of the reports that were submitted. Reports that Fop reps look over before they are submitted.
The also need desperately to bring back the "orange one," Pat Camden. He was there to give a version of the incident from the Officer's side. C'mon FOP, spend a buck for image.
FOP is useless. They work for Ram more that you.
Can we join some alternative legal collective? We all start chipping into a pot to hire or own counsel?
The FOP can't even handle simple grievances much less come up with an idea to protect members from any harm that's about to come from the current political climate in our city. As far as our Collective Bargaining Agreement, they will throw that to the way side to advance their own political agenda. Sick of the silence, the back door deals, and the inability to make a stand against anything. Stay Fetal F.O.P.!! I Can't wait until your OUT.
Great points SCC and I agree however your required to turn on your mic when involved in enforcement action so when your involved in a shooting or any traumatic incident that may require you calling/contacting FOP turn off your mic, remove it from your person and have your conversation in person or via phone at a distance from other vehicles. Another option may be having any conversation and decompressing in a tact or detective vehicle which do not have cameras or mic's.
Rahm is Hillary with a Tutu, and he will do anything to punish those who impeded his political aspirations to Rule, not Govern the U.S.! The Police destroyed Rahm's dreams, now the Police will pay, as will the taxpayers. Consider this fact: when the City of Los Angeles Police Department came under Federal Govt. control, the Feds ordered "unfunded" changes to be implemented! Those changes totaled in the tens of millions of dollars, and the key word there is Unfunded. In other words the Feds come in make demands, and the taxpayers eat the bill. Rahm will be gone back to making millions on Hedge Fund scams for the wealthy and those of us stupid enough to remain here will be left with the bill. Sort of like when The Stuttering Dwarf left us holding that bag. "Baby G"
In today's news Baltimore Mayor is planning on major changes to reduce police officer administrative Rights.
In this virulent rabidly anti-police environment the best idea is for everyone at the scene too
LAWYER UP!!!
If you were on the scene of a police shooting the City and Department are going to screw you. So look out for #1 and don't step in #2.
LAWYER UP!!!!
The FOP rep that responds to police shooting should be driving a van than officers can converse in without being overheard.
Any labor related conversation with your FOP field rep is protected by state law. There is also a recent federal case where a judge did rule in favor of a CPD officer involved in a police shooting. The field rep was called as a witness and was NOT required to reveal protected conversation between the member and rep.
But the picnic planing is going well.
No wonder all the audio on those squad cars has been disabled, not fixed, just left to rot, circumvented, not properly handled, lost parts, damaged, sabotaged or just plain fucked up. Can you blame anyone.
It's not like an airliner cockpit voice recorder where the pilots and crew know that the purpose of the device is to record their decisions and speak for them post mortem after a crash or other catastrophic event. This is just plain gotcha eavesdropping and should not be used in anyway shape or form.
Is the FOP listening, is the ACLU listening.
What makes you think they were pulling the audio to specifically listen to the calls to the FOP reps? Sounds like paranoia and jumping to conclusions. Relax, and don't say anything you don't want to hear on TV or in court while the mic is recording.
=====
Because as we detailed in the e-mail to SCC, they had their conversation out of the weather in Watch Lieutenant's car, which didn't arrive on scene until nearly a half hour afterward. What video about the shooting could the Lt's car have if they even bothered to log into the camera?
Answer: None.
Hey SCC, this commentator did not nail this exactly on the head.
2005 Illinois 735 5/Code of Civil Procedure
Part 8-Priviledged Communications
735 ILCS 5/8-803.5 Union Agent and Union Member
(a) Except when required in subsection (b) of this Section, a union agent, during the agency or representative relationship or after termination of the agency or representative relationship with the bargaining unit member, shall not be compelled to disclose, in any court or to any administrative board or agency arbitration or proceeding, whether civil or criminal, any information he or she may have acquired in attending to his or her professional duties or while acting in his or her representative capacity.
(b) A union agent may use or reveal information obtained during the course of fulfilling his or her professional representative duties:
(1) to the extent it appears necessary to prevent the commission of a crime that is likely to result in a clear, imminent risk of serious physical injury or death of another person;
(2) in actions, civil or criminal, against the union
agent in his or her personal or official representative capacity, or against the local union or subordinate body thereof or international union or affiliated or subordinate body thereof or any agent thereof in their personal or official representative capacities;
(3) when required by court order; or
(4) when, after full disclosure has been provided,
the written or oral consent of the bargaining unit member has been obtained or, if the bargaining unit member is deceased or has been adjudged incompetent by a court of competent jurisdiction, the written or oral consent of the bargaining unit member's estate.
(c) In the event of a conflict between the application of this Section and any federal or State labor law to a specific situation, the provisions of the federal or State labor law shall control.
So hold off of your revamping the disclaimer, sometimes less is better.
YOU'RE A FOOL IF YOU TALK TO A REP ON ANY HIGH STRESS SCENE!!
Your conversation is not privileged and is not protected. That means the officer you're talking to can be compelled to reveal every bit of your conversation and don't think for second he will help you! There is no cop out there was going to give up his house and livelihood to make sure you stay out of jail. You may have done nothing wrong but you will still be drag before a court on trumped up charges like Evans, Van Dyck, or the Ferguson officer.
I heard one bosses say we should still be working hard because they're good and honest citizen still out there. F'them, they all voted in this piece of trash and the rest of his crew that will crucify an honest hard-working officer for the sake of political gain. The minorities and liberal white students hate your guts and side with criminal scum with CB# and rap sheets full of arrests. Write every NW student and tell them why they get no breaks - because I'm on camera thanks to your kind and can no longer give breaks but keep up the Marxist cause. Screw the ghetto, we bust our ass to keep a bunch of ungratful parasite safe as they suck up the tax dollars we pay. On top of that we are rewarded by the city and county with higher taxes because we raise respectful emotional mature kids and have secure families thus creating the best neighborhoods in the city and for that they raise our taxes, put water metters on our buildings, double fine us as employees for any violations. Then they create law to use our own taxes to bus the criminal raised parasites to school with our kids and force housing developers to contribute residences so they live amoung us and steal our stuff while were at work.
I'm so sick of this city and can't wait for my retire date so I can say good bye Shitroit 2.
12/29/2015 01:26:00 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
What makes you think they were pulling the audio to specifically listen to the calls to the FOP reps? Sounds like paranoia and jumping to conclusions. Relax, and don't say anything you don't want to hear on TV or in court while the mic is recording.
12/29/2015 01:53:00 AM
You've obviously been vacationing off planet Earth if you're SO unaware that the media, the mayor, the department and the citizens want to tar and feather any and every police officer they can fabricate a case against.
Or, maybe you're a Fed. And you're here to 'help' us. Yeah, that must be it.
Blogger Sir Donkey, esq said...
We have many officers working these days that have a law degree.
If an officer has a law degree and is still on this job I would question his capabilities in the area of law.
I agree with the prior post, with experience. Go to the hospital!!!!!!! Pains in the chest, trouble breathing, whatever. I've been on shootings where this has occurred. Gives you time to gather your thoughts and legal assistance. Ive seen the Feds do it also and in that case the detective was told that the officer had mild sedation which meant no one could talk to him for 24 hours. .
Anonymous Anonymous said...
What makes you think they were pulling the audio to specifically listen to the calls to the FOP reps? Sounds like paranoia and jumping to conclusions. Relax, and don't say anything you don't want to hear on TV or in court while the mic is recording.
12/29/2015 01:53:00 AM
---------------------------
The above post is kinda alright in a perfect world but we don't live in a perfect world.
ANYTHING you say can be easily twisted or taken out of context by anyone so inclined.
Me? Now a days, I'd go the lawyer route just to be safe if the circumstances deemed such.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
The FOP rep that responds to police shooting should be driving a van than officers can converse in without being overheard.
12/29/2015 09:49:00 AM
?????
Would that be a portable "Cone of Silence?"
From a suburban PD FOP rep.
Please take a look at the following state statute: 735 ILCS 5/8-803.5 (Union Agent/Union Member Privilege). This statute gives a privilege to union members communicating with their representatives. If CPD is pulling audio to try and use those communications in criminal prosecutions or administrative proceedings, this statute will come in handy.
Also, for any officer that is a member of the FOP, look at the FOP Legal Defense Plan, www.foplegal.com. If your ever sued civilly or charged criminally as a result of your work as a PO, the plan covers all costs and you get your choice of plan attorneys. The annual premium is $64. Worth every penny!!!! And Dan Herbert is one of the plan attorneys. It's a no brainer.
https://www.policeone.com/social-media-for-cops/articles/5984091-Why-cops-have-fewer-rights-than-criminals/
Because as we detailed in the e-mail to SCC, they had their conversation out of the weather in Watch Lieutenant's car, which didn't arrive on scene until nearly a half hour afterward. What video about the shooting could the Lt's car have if they even bothered to log into the camera?
Answer: None.
12/29/2015 11:30:00 AM
So, why would audio/video even be recording in the Lieutenant's car that arrived a half hour after the shooting? If the Lt. didn't log into the camera, it's very unlikely that any audio was recorded. Also, the audio is recorded through the microphone, not the car. The officers' microphones would be recording to their vehicles' hard drives, not the Lt's car. You're saying the audio was pulled from the Lt's car to find out what the officers said to the FOP rep, but that audio wouldn't have been captured on the Lt's microphone, unless the Lt. was recording and his microphone was in the car at the time of the conversations. I would assume they pulled video/audio from every vehicle that was on scene, regardless of when they arrived or what conversations occurred in them. So, again, it sounds like paranoia and speculation. But, back to the important part of my post, don't say anything while that mic is recording that you don't want to hear on TV or in court.
"I am the master of the word unspoken,
Once uttered I am its' slave. "
FOP is not on your side! I contacted the F.O.P regarding a suspension that I believed to be a "bully move" by I.A.D. My options were to "take the suspension or else", specifically , coming from the ranks of I.A.D(they have no sanctions , they have no rules, they can do as they please, two to three tiers of discipline depending on who your Daddy is) for a CR# that resulted in DOUBLE the amount of suspension to which other officer's had received in similar sustained CR's# ... When is there going to be rules for I.A.D. to follow, when is the F.O.P. going to stop the I.A.D. bullying? When is F.O.P going to start backing your members who pay dues who should be treated fair like all the rest? We need a new F.O.P.!
Krupa fucked up, do not say that the FOP had anything to do with his situation.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
What makes you think they were pulling the audio to specifically listen to the calls to the FOP reps? Sounds like paranoia and jumping to conclusions. Relax, and don't say anything you don't want to hear on TV or in court while the mic is recording.
=====
Because as we detailed in the e-mail to SCC, they had their conversation out of the weather in Watch Lieutenant's car, which didn't arrive on scene until nearly a half hour afterward. What video about the shooting could the Lt's car have if they even bothered to log into the camera?
Answer: None.
12/29/2015 11:30:00 AM
Throughout the 2nd and 3rd watches, they had every car that was on the scene, brought to the area so the video guy could try and and retrieve audio/video, even if there was a ticket. Then again on 1st watch the next night, they called for the LT's car a second time because "the camera was on while the officers were sitting in there, talking to FOP."
And FYI, the Lt arrived almost right after the officers called out the shots fired by the police.
Anonymous said...
Blogger Sir Donkey, esq said...
We have many officers working these days that have a law degree.
If an officer has a law degree and is still on this job I would question his capabilities in the area of law.
12/29/2015 02:08:00 PM
He or she may have a Law Degree (Juris Doctorate), but does he or she have a license to practice law. I have been in several professions and known a few non-practicing lawyers. They were not practicing because being a lawyer SUCKS. A lot of pressure, deadlines, papers, papers and more papers and everyone ends up hating you especially your clients. I know I ended up hating a lawyer I hired.
Time to dump FOP.
REALLY!
So tired of hearing about their non-performance. Just another unit for eventual merit promotions, nothing more.
Doesn't anybody have the balls to tell them they are doing a SHIT job?
Glad I am not on CPD.
And another thing, get a candidate primed for State's attorney. Put him/her up as a Republican and support the shit out of them.
"If an officer has a law degree and is still on this job I would question his capabilities in the area of law."
Hear, hear!!! I would question his capabilities in any area of the law if he/she is still on the job. If he/she is so good, why are they still working for the Police Department?
Retired over 4 years. Remember when I was on, heard that there were a few hundred lawyers on the job. It's a tough degree to get. And now its a tough degree to market as there are so many of them out there.
If FOp gets a van for shootings and shooting officers can have private conversation does that mean FOP will have to sell that 55' SeaRay up at Diversey harbor?
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