Sunday, May 22, 2016

Ammo Questions in NYC

In light of CPD's recent ammunition issue, this was mentioned in the comments:
  • Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown failed to penetrate his jacket — which was not bulletproof — and the NYPD will now check the weapons for malfunction, law enforcement sources told The Post.

    “The bullets we have may be defective and that’s very disturbing,” one source said. “When we fire our weapons, we want to make damn sure that our bullets hit our target — neutralizing our target.”

    A sergeant and an officer fired a total of nine rounds at 46-year-old Garry Conrad on Wednesday, with one of the shots killing the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue.

    Four of the bullets got lodged in Conrad’s Carhartt jacket, sources said, adding that he was not wearing a bulletproof vest.
The Carhartt we owned once was a canvas-like material with a heavy weave - weather and water proof as we recall. Still, nothing we'd suspect as capable of stopping a decent sized round. Can any of our New York readers clue us in who was the manufacturer of the cartridges in question?

Labels: ,

94 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This could be a defense for shooting someone 16 times, "I did not know if the bullets were penetrating the subject as he was still moving"!

Sounds like a winner!

5/22/2016 12:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speer Gold Dot 124gr according to one article.

5/22/2016 12:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's amazing is that their knife wielding offender was shot and killed with no protests like we would have had here.

5/22/2016 12:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Buy and use your own ammo that falls under the Department's GOs! if you go on YouTube there are several groups that test ammunition according to FBI standards. They fire into bare gellatin and thru heavy denim and test for both penetration and expansion. I used to think just get hollow points and the rest will take care of itself, but watch these videos and see for yourself how all these different rounds perform in the caliber you're using. Many do great in the bare gellatin but then plug up and don't expand thru the heavy denim. I've found that the round that the City uses performs well. Was somewhat surprised there's been such issues with it but seems to be the Manufacturer (I hope). My personal favorite is Federal HST. A very consistent performer in all calibers IMO. Good luck finding it though.

5/22/2016 12:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the rounds were that underpowered, I am surprised they cycled the semiautomatic?

5/22/2016 12:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Carehart save lives

5/22/2016 12:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Recently, NYPD has had a reputation for being mediocre marksmen at best. In the past it has been known for some cops to spray their pistols down with WD-40, or gun oil, with the magazine and bullets still in the pistol. The WD-40, or oil, penetrates the primer or powder and either inactivates it, or weakens the powder. Not saying this is what happened, but it has happened in the past. Cops have also been known to lightly oil their ammo.

5/22/2016 12:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's with Garrys with two r's in New York? That's the question.

5/22/2016 12:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They hit him with more than four of the nine rounds?

With a twelve pound trigger, they are either better than average, or the guy got really close?

5/22/2016 12:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A liberal and catered-to constituent fantasy...

"Safe" department issued ammo.

Hallelujah for practical tactical, 5in.
double-stack .45 ACP semi-auto pistols
of 13+1 to 15+1 capacity.

Doubly so for being able to purchase
your own high performance ammo in the
1100 to 1200+ fps performance realm.

"It's your hide.
How much do you value it?"

A quote credited to a famous
early to mid 20th century upright gunman.

Can't remember if it was Elmer Keith,
Jeff Cooper or Bill Jordan.

All proponents of big-bore revolvers and
semi-auto pistols that knocked big holes
into and through people/places/things
that badly need big holes knocked into
and through them by upright and determined men.

5/22/2016 01:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fuck that range ammo, invest $30.00 and buy your own. In all my years otj, after the annual, when you could make it !!! Reload with your own. Us wheel guys were given 38 Special rounds that bounced off windows. Lot of us carried 45'- 1911, and a snub. No one really cared.

5/22/2016 01:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NYPD We carry Speer Gold Dot +P rounds

5/22/2016 01:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Get the RIP ammo.

5/22/2016 01:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Paul Kersey said...

Non-functional ammunition?

Doesn't this sound like it should be championed by the FOP (or NYPD's equivalent in NY)?

This is a REAL life-threatening job issue.

This sounds like a bigger issue than finding out how many pizzas to order for a meeting.

Is anybody on it? The ammunition issue - NOT the pizza order.

Stay fatal.

5/22/2016 01:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CPD academy will start quals again around June1st

5/22/2016 01:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rumor Mill:

I know this is just a rumor right now however it has come down through the grapevine from some good sources.

Supposedly Rahm wants to offer a flat $10.00 an hour raise on the next contract.

The catch: FOP would give up a good deal of disciplinary rights in the contract.

If FOP does not bite, he would offer $20.00 an hour more raise.

Now this would be a large increase in salary but he is determined to gut the contract as it is.

SCC;

I think this is a good argument for discussion.
I say fuck selling out.
FOP should NOT give up any disciplinary rights.
They would be selling out just like the sergeants did last time.

5/22/2016 01:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nine shots, four in the jacket, one in the ?head?, and one grazed a bystander. What happened to the other three rounds? That is my nightmare, just because you miss the bad guy, doesn't mean you don't hit someone or something. Just look at the kids and grandmas hit by the thugs shooting up the neighborhood!

5/22/2016 01:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" . . . the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue. "

------------------------------------------------------

Broadway stagehand?

Shit, I'd be depressed and suicidal too.

5/22/2016 01:35:00 AM  
Anonymous Thurston Howell III said...

Egads, this is so ridiculous. Who do you buy your bullets from? Gilligan Enterprises?

You should create some Charitable Fund, like "Working Bullets for Working Cops". That could be a good write-off for me.

Hmmm, maybe I should buy Winchester or Remington and make my own brand of bullets?

Of course, Howell bullets would be Gold-tipped. Gold-tipped Howell Hollowpoints - you MUST say, that has a good ring to it

I know everyone at the Country Club would buy some boxes.

Now where did I park my Rolls?

5/22/2016 02:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Bklyn North said...

We have had no complaints about the NYPD's standard 9 mm round: Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P HP.

Check this topic on THEE RANT.

5/22/2016 02:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown..."

No, no, no. That just started out wrong. You can't call him a "madman" nowadays. And you definitely can't shoot at him without de-escalating, calling for CIT officer, going to the tazer, shooting him in the leg, etc. first!

Those cops are out of control!

5/22/2016 02:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Steve F. /Retired CPD said...

What Brand of ammo / caliber / bullet weight & description / Hollow Point ? Full Metal
Jacket ? That information is important to see what the Hell happened ?

5/22/2016 03:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Ex-cop with ties to reputed wiseguys hires Garry McCarthy’s firm" ,headline story from Sun times, (apr)
According to the article he will be working for Richard Simon, along with his buddy from NY

5/22/2016 04:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Rumor Mill:

I know this is just a rumor right now however it has come down through the grapevine from some good sources.

Supposedly Rahm wants to offer a flat $10.00 an hour raise on the next contract.

The catch: FOP would give up a good deal of disciplinary rights in the contract.

If FOP does not bite, he would offer $20.00 an hour more raise.

Now this would be a large increase in salary but he is determined to gut the contract as it is.

SCC;

I think this is a good argument for discussion.
I say fuck selling out.
FOP should NOT give up any disciplinary rights.
They would be selling out just like the sergeants did last time.

5/22/2016 01:32:00

You're an idiot and a troll.rahm will try to gut the contract alright but not at that price. by the numbers you provided it would cost a quarter to half a billion to pay the department that much . 20k to 40k per officer, more if you're a white shirt.

5/22/2016 06:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What's amazing is that their knife wielding offender was shot and killed with no protests like we would have had here."

5/22/2016 12:17:00 AM

Garry Conrad, 46, was white.

5/22/2016 06:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Memorial Day weekend overtime for all. Please Please work overtime so Rahm is expecting a massacre just like last Memorial Day. Not me I will be spending time with family. Stay safe

5/22/2016 06:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i hope the cops don't get fired for discharging their weapons before saying "pretty please drop your knife"

5/22/2016 06:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5/22/2016 01:32:00 AM

Sadly if this is one of his proposals then there will be plenty of fools who will take Rahm's offer. Oh trade in our disciplinary rights for a mere $10 raise? Just watch all of those coppers who can use the extra $10 raise.

5/22/2016 07:21:00 AM  
Blogger Mr. SouthSide said...

New York. New York. It's a helluva town....

5/22/2016 07:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rumor Mill:

I know this is just a rumor right now however it has come down through the grapevine from some good sources.

Supposedly Rahm wants to offer a flat $10.00 an hour raise on the next contract.

The catch: FOP would give up a good deal of disciplinary rights in the contract.

If FOP does not bite, he would offer $20.00 an hour more raise.

Now this would be a large increase in salary but he is determined to gut the contract as it is.

SCC;

I think this is a good argument for discussion.
I say fuck selling out.
FOP should NOT give up any disciplinary rights.
They would be selling out just like the sergeants did last time.

Won't happen, because that would all be pensionable, and we know how Ballerina feels about our pension.

5/22/2016 07:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any manufacturer can have an issue. You have to check your ammunition no matter who made it. Mechanical things fail. Bad rounds can come off the press. Check your ammo and make sure you maintain your weapon. Keep oil away from the ammunition. That is all.

5/22/2016 07:34:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bullet performance when it hits a target is impossible to reliably test. The effect of clothing on bullets can be startling. A Carhart jacket is not a flimsy item.

Years ago the NRA among others ran tests of shooting into various outer garments. Puffy down filled jackets turned high performance hollow point bullets into Ball ammo.

As for buying your own street ammo, a very good idea. And shoot a few rounds from the box just too be sure.

5/22/2016 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger B said...

Even seriously degraded rounds tend to have enough velocity to penetrate a Carhartt jacket.

But cops tend not to change out their carry rounds, from what I see (I'm not a cop, but I am a firearms instructor) I always recommend changing your carry ammo every 90 days or so, but I have seen cops with magazines that haven't been emptied in *Years*.If the top round in your magazine isn't shiny brass or the bullet is dark, it is time to change your carry ammo. For many cops I meet, the gun is just a symbol of authority, not a tool to defend. (not saying this is true for all police officers, but it is for some).

If my life was going to depend on my gun and the ammo in it, I'd change it out regularly.

YMMV.

5/22/2016 07:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://wgntv.com/2016/05/22/wgn-exclusive-rev-jackson-addresses-violence-epidemic-in-chicago/

WGN had revrun Jesse on this morning.

Interviewer begins his segment discussing the shootings and homicides, and then asks, "Is the CPD alone in the blame on this, or there something the communities are able to do?"


unreal....blame CPD for gang banging idiots killing each other.

Im blaming Jesse because my sandwich is low on mayo

5/22/2016 08:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NYPD must get their shit the same place as CPD.

5/22/2016 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger woodchuck said...

Not a cop, but a 50+ year shooter...tens of thousands of rounds....I cast my bullets, and load my own....I prefer a .44 special @ 1100 fps. with a hard cast .240 gr. bullet. It makes a BIG hole AND penetrates. The 9 is CRAP. I have seen head shots that did not stop the "shootee"..Back in the day, when the evil "BLACK TALON" was on the shelves at Walmart, I learned quickly that the would not penetrate even in 45 ACP. The .40 short & weak is another poor performer. It is the cut down version of the 10 mm, which is a real round. It was taken away from the FBI because the girls, and girley men couldn't stand the recoil. Recoil is natures way of telling you that your kicking someones ass...Misses never count, put 1,000 rounds through your personal firearm on real targets at known ranged. When you can hit a center mass target reliably at 50 yards, you won't miss at 7....

5/22/2016 09:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/crime/dallas-police-having-trouble-recruiting/199705564



Dallas PD cannot get people to join. Chicago's future?

5/22/2016 09:16:00 AM  
Anonymous God help us if this is intentional said...

Its the new mob, i mean crowd pleasing ammo. The first 13/16 rounds are rubber with only the 14th or 17th round (depending on what you carry) being real. Thats the mob mentality to protect criminals committing criminal acts from outta control police

5/22/2016 09:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

know this is just a rumor right now however it has come down through the grapevine from some good sources.

Supposedly Rahm wants to offer a flat $10.00 an hour raise on the next contract.



Will never happen. And where is all of this money going to come from?. They can't afford the pension payments in your current salary. Same reason they will never let us sell back 200 hours a year like the supervisors. The budget can't handle it.
Stop with the false rumors.

5/22/2016 09:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the rumor spreader that Rahm will offer $10 an hour raise. Smoke some better weed, right now he is not wanting to give, he will try to entice you with some benefit issue but beware, he wants to get out of the insurance business. You will pay more for benefits. Look for job protection not a 2 percent raise. I'm 65 onmedicare, wife not medicare age and have 1 dependent yet. I pay 1500.00 per month for city insurance after 30 yrs. Onjob.

5/22/2016 09:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
How come there is no ammo at the ranges to qualify?

-----------

You were supposed to have qualified by the end of April for duty weapons.
You ONLY had since 1 January to do this.

Did you even file your taxes yet or are you one of those dimwits who still have your W-2 sitting at the desk?

-----------

Nice comment there, especially with the name calling from somebody who clearly has no clue. Qualification this year didn't start until mid-March and was stopped mid-April because of the ammo recall.

-----------

So you had a MONTH to do a 20 minute qualification and still didn't do it until you had to be reminded.

5/22/2016 01:48:00 AM

20 minute qual? I agree with somebody else who said you're obviously above the rank of sergeant because you obviously didn't have to sit and wait with the plebs until the range staff was ready for you. Not to mention they did a combination firearm/taser qualification this year.

5/22/2016 09:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I only carry Hormady "Critical Defense".
Invest the money- the life you save may be your own.

Anyone who trusts the free city ammo when the chips are down is soft in the head.

5/22/2016 09:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If FOP does not bite, he would offer $20.00 an hour more raise.

Now this would be a large increase in salary but he is determined to gut the contract as it is.
Anonymous said...
SCC;

I think this is a good argument for discussion.
I say fuck selling out.
FOP should NOT give up any disciplinary rights.
They would be selling out just like the sergeants did last time.


5/22/2016 01:32:00 AM

Whoa there junior! Let's not rewrite history! The SEARGEANTS VOTED THEIR CONTRACT DOWN!

5/22/2016 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Long Ridge Deer Camp said...

Niners, go with Remington Golden Saber 124 grn +P (non bonded)
45'ers stick with the Remington 185 gran GS +P.
You'll be well armed, and NO, NEVER let your rounds be
lubricated.

5/22/2016 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger Long Ridge Deer Camp said...

Niners should go with Remington GS 124 grain +P.
45'ers stick with Remington 185 grain+P GS. NEVER lube your rounds.

5/22/2016 09:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

how come no one is taking about McNauton? and his (alleged) getting served by the IG

5/22/2016 10:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I pull the bullets in our issued ammo and dump the powder. I then reload my own for extra penetration and stoping power. I do this for six others and they love the round for its accuracy and reliability. If you have to use your weapon, the ballistics are focused on the bullet not the powder charge. The powder charge is gone when you fire the weapon.

5/22/2016 10:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I searched Carhartt's page and they do not list a welding jacket. Many other brands of welding jackets are made with Nomex or Kevlar. If that is the case I am not surprised that hollow points did not penetrate.

5/22/2016 10:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shot placement is most important. Still, a .45 185gr is a pretty good round. .45 model 1911 has been around for quite a while.

5/22/2016 10:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's amazing is that their knife wielding offender was shot and killed with no protests like we would have had here.

5/22/2016 12:17:00 AM


What's even more amazing is that the story didn't talk about how the police "unloaded" on the poor man with an additional story about the poor souls life and how the police ended it....but that's the Chicago media now, isn't it.

And to the media just catching up on McCarthy: when the New York boobs cleared their offices out of The Public Safety Building (or whatever they are calling Headquarters today) they drove right over to the "reputed wiseguy's" place and set up shop. They probably used the company car to do it.

It's the Chicago way. Those are Rahm's Chicago values. He hired him.

5/22/2016 11:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Richard said...

Federal HST2 does a perfect job of expanding as a JHP should and greatly reduces over penetration. Can Chicago Peace Officers carry any grain they desire or are your hands tied up regarding that?
A 147 grain JHP in 9mm is a potent round today and should perform as desired. The polymer tipped JHP's are designed so that they do not open until having traveled through an hit muscle mass or bone.
Please do not be cheap with the equipment that can save your lives. The best prices I have found is at sgammo. Not promoting them but trying to save good officers a few bucks. My officer dad never said he was cheap, just thrifty. Now I walk around turning the lights out just like that thrifty son of a gun.
Be safe officers!
Richard, son of LEO!

5/22/2016 11:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I could see the round cut a doughnut hole out of the cloth, becoming essentially a ball round, but the failure to penetrate is disturbing.

5/22/2016 12:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rumor Mill:

I know this is just a rumor right now however it has come down through the grapevine from some good sources.Supposedly Rahm wants to offer a flat $10.00 an hour raise on the next contract.

The catch: FOP would give up a good deal of disciplinary rights in the contract.
If FOP does not bite, he would offer $20.00 an hour more raise.
Now this would be a large increase in salary but he is determined to gut the contract as it is.

No way that would be 20,000 to 40,000 a year raise... There is not a chance in hell.

5/22/2016 12:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SCC;

I think this is a good argument for discussion.
I say fuck selling out.
FOP should NOT give up any disciplinary rights.
They would be selling out just like the sergeants did last time.

5/22/2016 01:32:00 AM

You mean, just like the sergeants did NOT, despite the union leadership's attempt at an end run.

5/22/2016 12:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

seems like the savage thugs have no problems getting ammo that wounds and kills! What a disgrace the CEO of this city allows to happen in less than 24 hours 20 shot but only 1 dead maybe they need practice, or are they using bad ammo?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-shootings-chicago-violence-20160521-story.html

Rahm is the academy running 24/7 yet? Just got back from Lagrange 10 minutes from Garfield ridge area 811 beat, thought the Cartel of Zalewski,Burke,and Quinn plus the top dogs Madigan and Lipinski were going to "rejuvenate Archer Av" but guess not! La Grange had so many people out enjoying the day, then i drove back along archer from Harlem to Cicero WTF!

Maybe Rahm since you had that not so secret meeting with Zalewski and others and approved building 2 brand new schools 1 at 65 and Nottingham and the other by Byrne school 5301 S Oakpark, this means you have found more hundreds of millions correct? Why else would you even open your mouth or it's nit a "little fib" naw you would never lie sir your the mayor.

You could use that money to institute the once touted Archer Ave. revitalization plan, but you would rather pander to the illegal invaders, and the welfare breeding thug crowd. Sorry to quote Urkel "Did I just say that?" Just another pesky question mayor on this public forum the 550 million tax increase you and the fifty cent crew approved for police pension funding why is it still being held by the city? Are you going to do the old "backdoor" routine and not pay it?

5/22/2016 01:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

4 killed 29 shot since Friday:

http://abc7chicago.com/news/4-killed-29-shot-in-chicago-since-friday/1350155/

Tell us again about the police being bad mayor the 50 flaky. They should be happy this is not corporate America the ceo rahm and the 50 advisers would of been fired long ago!

5/22/2016 01:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Buy and use your own ammo that falls under the Department's GOs! if you go on YouTube there are several groups that test ammunition according to FBI standards. They fire into bare gellatin and thru heavy denim and test for both penetration and expansion. I used to think just get hollow points and the rest will take care of itself, but watch these videos and see for yourself how all these different rounds perform in the caliber you're using. Many do great in the bare gellatin but then plug up and don't expand thru the heavy denim. I've found that the round that the City uses performs well. Was somewhat surprised there's been such issues with it but seems to be the Manufacturer (I hope). My personal favorite is Federal HST. A very consistent performer in all calibers IMO. Good luck finding it though.
Agreed! Federal HST +P is an excellent round!

5/22/2016 01:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First issue with NYPD is that they have 10 pound triggers unlike the 5pound that is stock direct from the manufacture. Once you fuck with the triggers on any gun you open the possibility of having malfuntions. NYPD does carry excellent ammo, Speer goldot, I am thinking there are issues with the weapons and not the ammo, but I could be wrong.

5/22/2016 02:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Off topic someone start the idiot judges list.

When Zavala told Elizondo to leave his sister alone, Elizondo punched him in the face, causing Zavala to hit his head on the pavement, prosecutors said. Elizondo then continued to repeatedly punch Zavala in the face.

Zavala died on July 20, 2013, mostly from the injuries he suffered in the July 4 beating, authorities said. He lived with the family in the 4400 block of South Wolcott.

Judge Angela Petrone sentenced Elizondo to 24 years in prison Tuesday, according to court records. He will receive credit for 1,480 days served in the Cook County Jail.

Elizondo previously served seven years in prison after he pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter in a 1987 incident in which he punched and stabbed to his victim to death on Christmas Day. He also served a four-year sentence for receiving/possessing/selling a stolen vehicle for a 1991 case.

He was booked into the Stateville Correctional Center to begin serving his sentence Thursday, according to IDOC records.

7 years for a prior manslaughter, then another 4. This one should be life in prison easy, fuck the credit.

5/22/2016 02:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is what happens when you buy your ammunition from Vanecko, Vanecko and Daley Enterprises.

5/22/2016 02:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whatever happened to Mcarthy's driver he made meritorious sergeant and it was found out after he graduated sergeant school that he didn't even take the sergeants test. I know he spent a couple of days working as a sergeant in the 007th district and then he was whisked away. Did they ever demote him or is he still a sergeant somewhere???? Enquiring minds want to know???? Especially with all of this promotional testing scandals going on.......

NOBODY knows what happened to this guy????? Come on someone does???

Still a Sgt. up north and his boyfriend is in Sgt. class right now
5/20/2016 10:11:00 PM

I really hope this is not true, the guy didn't even take the test!!!!!

5/22/2016 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger Tyler123b1 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/22/2016 02:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would be very curious to see if the rounds stuck in the jacket expanded or not. It's plausible they plugged up, and it's less likely they would have expanded if they were at reduced velocity.

If they expanded and stopped that may be business as usual for that ammo, if they weren't expanded and stopped that is likely a big mess!

5/22/2016 04:51:00 PM  
Blogger 011 2nd Watch DOG said...

Anonymous 1127X said...
Same type of pseudo threatening message was communicated yesterday in 011.
A certain Sgt basically warned 2nd watch MANAGEMENT peeps, that if they don't start upping their ISR production, their former watch awaits.
Aint that some shit?

5/21/2016 07:27:00 AM

Sorry a little late but it was the 2nd watch LT (D,M) who called in some of the management officer and asked them about their lack of ISR's. She is very nice but a goofball who thinks officers are willing to go out and violate civil rights just to stay on their best cars.
765B

5/22/2016 05:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SCC maybe some readers with autopsy/homicide experience will chime in as well. I've seen a couple 9MM shootings with Speer 124 +P Gold Dot JHP - gets excellent penetration. But I saw a 5'6" 145 lb. guy take 5 rounds center mass to put him down. I've also seen 5.56 Federal bonded 62 gr. torso hits which were essentially survivable, close range hits.

Another poster mentioned WD-40 and oiling rounds. No joke, saw a bad guy who got the drop on the cop - his round made it halfway down his barrel before he was killed. Reason - good ammo, but he'd been soaking his rounds in oil for some unknown reason. It can happen I guess.

Small and fast does well against barriers like sheet metal, auto glass, etc. Big and slower does well against human tissue and bone structures (handgun rounds anyway).

One load I would NOT recommend from personal experience is PMC 124 Starfire JHP. Not impressed with my use of it.

5/22/2016 05:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dunno. Smells like a .380, or even a .32 Kel-Tec. Maybe an off-duty-involved?

5/22/2016 05:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look $%^*$ yeah u know who om talkin to. Keep up your bs the city going to burn to tge ground little LIBS. Trunps gonna win and fire all u idiots anyway. Good luck on your Marshall law plans. I AINT doing shit
.

PS
freedom of speach and G-D bless 2nd Amendment.

Go get another PHD in liberalism %$^& ^%^& g%&^^^ %^$% #%^& #%$$ #$%% $^%....

5/22/2016 06:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Off topic someone start the idiot judges list.

When Zavala told Elizondo to leave his sister alone, Elizondo punched him in the face, causing Zavala to hit his head on the pavement, prosecutors said. Elizondo then continued to repeatedly punch Zavala in the face.

Zavala died on July 20, 2013, mostly from the injuries he suffered in the July 4 beating, authorities said. He lived with the family in the 4400 block of South Wolcott.

Judge Angela Petrone sentenced Elizondo to 24 years in prison Tuesday, according to court records. He will receive credit for 1,480 days served in the Cook County Jail.

Elizondo previously served seven years in prison after he pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter in a 1987 incident in which he punched and stabbed to his victim to death on Christmas Day. He also served a four-year sentence for receiving/possessing/selling a stolen vehicle for a 1991 case.

He was booked into the Stateville Correctional Center to begin serving his sentence Thursday, according to IDOC records.

7 years for a prior manslaughter, then another 4. This one should be life in prison easy, fuck the credit.

5/22/2016 02:10:00 PM


Think daleys nephew killed David koschman same way got what 1 month in jail protective custody the lieutenants Walsh and company skated after hiding evidence where are the Feds? 2 sets of rules! Don't forget the brother got 60 million from our police pension fund lost it all no investigation who gave him "our money?" Where are the Feds again?

5/22/2016 06:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rahm is the academy running 24/7 yet? Just got back from Lagrange 10 minutes from Garfield ridge area 811 beat, thought the Cartel of Zalewski,Burke,and Quinn plus the top dogs Madigan and Lipinski were going to "rejuvenate Archer Av" but guess not! La Grange had so many people out enjoying the day, then i drove back along archer from Harlem to Cicero WTF!

Yeah waste money rejuvenating archer so the hillbilly over there can still complain about how expensive Lawlors and chili bar is since beers cost 3 bucks. Or how they are really splurging and going to portillos. There is a reason no decent businesses open on archer and that's because the cheap cops and hose draggers won't spend any money.

5/22/2016 07:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I searched Carhartt's page and they do not list a welding jacket. Many other brands of welding jackets are made with Nomex or Kevlar. If that is the case I am not surprised that hollow points did not penetrate.


5/22/2016 10:31:00 AM


I must say, you would be better off being a welder than a policeman.

5/22/2016 07:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last year, a copper with 25+ years walked into area 5 to qualify. He asks if we'll give him replacement ammo, I tell him yes. He asks if he can shoot that and keep the good stuff for the street. I ask him what he considers the good stuff, he says "black talons baby!" I tell him to go out on he rang and shoot one magazine, he does. 4 out of 15 were duds. His ammo was at least 10 years old. The new +P duty ammo is excellent with great performance and penetration. Get rid of your old stuff!

5/22/2016 07:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
First issue with NYPD is that they have 10 pound triggers unlike the 5pound that is stock direct from the manufacture. Once you fuck with the triggers on any gun you open the possibility of having malfuntions. NYPD does carry excellent ammo, Speer goldot, I am thinking there are issues with the weapons and not the ammo, but I could be wrong.

5/22/2016 02:02:00 PM

This is the height of liberal/progressive crazy.

They somehow think that this is making
Police sidearms "safer" for a shit-head
who is in desperate need of being shot?

"We want The Police to think really hard
before they pull the trigger."

No duty, rightful burden or responsibility
for the m/fer doing the fool in such an
alarming manner as to merit possible
lethal law enforcement intervention?

"The Police are the problem..."
intervention

5/22/2016 07:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NYPD issues Speer GoldDot 9mm +P 124gr

5/22/2016 07:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Get the RIP ammo.

5/22/2016 01:15:00 AM

Garbage fantasy ammo.Nothing wrong with the Speer 9mm+P 124 GoldDot,has good street creds.

5/22/2016 07:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

45ACP 230gr ball ammo worked just fine between 1911-1985......

5/22/2016 07:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear God

5/22/2016 08:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like the Speer 147 grain subsonic crap they used to make us carry. Those rounds would bounce off windshields and not penetrate Shithead's Pele jackets.

5/22/2016 09:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“When we fire our weapons, we want to make damn sure that our bullets hit our target — neutralizing our target.”

And when they do hit their target, you want to make sure it doesn't take 16 of them to neutralize it, because then they'll charge you with first degree murder.

5/22/2016 09:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rahm is the academy running 24/7 yet? Just got back from Lagrange 10 minutes from Garfield ridge area 811 beat, thought the Cartel of Zalewski,Burke,and Quinn plus the top dogs Madigan and Lipinski were going to "rejuvenate Archer Av" but guess not! La Grange had so many people out enjoying the day, then i drove back along archer from Harlem to Cicero WTF!

Yeah waste money rejuvenating archer so the hillbilly over there can still complain about how expensive Lawlors and chili bar is since beers cost 3 bucks. Or how they are really splurging and going to portillos. There is a reason no decent businesses open on archer and that's because the cheap cops and hose draggers won't spend any money.

5/22/2016 07:00:00 PM

disagree with your comments! the real problem is the taxes and regulations are so overwhelming the businesses cannot justify the expense! You mention portillos, it is across the street in Summit always extremely busy,and then you guy by 58th and Harlem they are building a "Jimmy johns plaza" with that place and other stores, durbins opened recently but again in summit! But we have a new super Aldo coming soon they bought land from Joe & Franks and are tearing down the block east side of Harlem soon, so at least a new business is opening on Chicago side better than nothing! But you drive down Archer and it looks old and beat up! Archer is known as banker's and Doctor's row from Cicero-Harlem don't believe me drive and look! The millions wasted everywhere could be easily invested on this strip but it is not downtown and not the Northside!

The obvious point is our politicians don't have the clout to get things done simple as that!

5/22/2016 10:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I bet if the officers were CIT trained, they could have talked to the nut job and not have to kill the poor, aspiring actor. Nice job officers! You went home safe.

5/22/2016 11:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doesn't anyone carry shotguns anymore? 3 rounds of "OO" and the rest deer slugs....

5/23/2016 12:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


SGAmmo has HST +P for $25.95 for 50 rounds.

5/23/2016 05:45:00 AM  
Blogger chitownsfinest said...

It was already said here but I'll say it again:
BUY YOUR OWN AMMO THAT CONFORMS TO DEPT STANDARDS FOR THE SEEVICE WEAPON YOU ARE CARRYING ON THE STREET!!!!!!"

Hornady critical duty( not critical defense) is the best ammo for our pistols period end of conversation. It is a jacketed hollow point (so it conforms to dept orders) is +P (so it travels faster) and has a polymer plug inside the hollow point so that it doesn't get clogged up on an offenders clothing and fail to expand. It is the only bullet ever that is guaranteed to expand on impact which is really unheard of in the ammo world. 3 mags full of it will run you almost 50 bucks but it is the best stuff out there!

5/23/2016 08:24:00 AM  
Anonymous George Matheis said...

I had a fatal police involved in 2000 where I used one round of Federal 147 grain Hi Shok and 4 rounds of OO Buck, other officers shot him with the same 9MM round and the sheriff's had 40s, I forget what round. He was wearing a leather jacket over a denim jacket. Many of the 9, 40, and most of the OO buck, most from under 7 yards got stopped by the described clothing. There were two different altercations, one he was standing and I fired the first shot, then a foot chase to a wounded area where he was located, laying down and wounded. I fired two rounds of OO and others fired handguns, and he slumped, ambulation after death occurred when he pointed the gun at us again. We all fire again. The COD was one of my pellets went down through his neck into his descending aorta. What stopped action was a pellet blowing off the thumb on his gun hand. Took a lot to stop him and even more to kill him. People soak up rounds like sponges. The only way you will get good visual feedback on a hit is if you hit the central nervous system or the structural system composed of bones, muscles, ligaments and tendons. Most rounds will effect the circulatory system. Rounds to the circulatory system are likely to lead to death, but do a very poor job at stopping the violent action. Shoot and move.

5/23/2016 08:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Think daleys nephew killed David koschman same way got what 1 month in jail protective custody the lieutenants Walsh and company skated after hiding evidence where are the Feds? 2 sets of rules! Don't forget the brother got 60 million from our police pension fund lost it all no investigation who gave him "our money?" Where are the Feds again?

5/22/2016 06:51:00 PM

Why do people like this always ask where the feds are? They investigated the Koschman case and found what they found. Did you think anything else would happen? And there was nothing illegal about a connected guy working with pension funds. They know the law and use it to their advantage, and you do not know the law and bitch. You better start by voting anything but democrat for a change and start attending some of the FOP and pension board meetings. Bet you never hit even one of them.

5/23/2016 08:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXfDcY-0gU

5/23/2016 12:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9x19mm Luger Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot slow motion ballistic gelatin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHqJw8BzUhM

5/23/2016 12:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"First issue with NYPD is that they have 10 pound triggers unlike the 5pound that is stock direct from the manufacture. Once you fuck with the triggers on any gun you open the possibility of having malfuntions. NYPD does carry excellent ammo, Speer goldot, I am thinking there are issues with the weapons and not the ammo, but I could be wrong."

Well the guns (both of them) made the ammunition go bang, so I'm not sure what more you expect the weapons to do.

And since there were two guns involved, it'll be interesting to see if they can determine which gun(s) fired the ammo that failed to penetrate the jacket. Can it be traced back to the brand and type of ammo? Or if one of the officers was in the habit of wiping his ammo down with WD40?

If one officer's ammo worked as designed while the other guy's didn't, there'll be some interesting lessons learned from this.

Right now

5/23/2016 01:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Supposedly Rahm wants to offer a flat $10.00 an hour raise on the next contract.
The catch: FOP would give up a good deal of disciplinary rights in the contract.
If FOP does not bite, he would offer $20.00 an hour more raise.

5/22/2016 01:32:00

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Just to play along in fantasy land,:
There is only one possible way that this fictitious plan would be financially beneficial to the city.

Step 1: If after the new contract takes effect, the city moves to fire EVERY officer with 10-20 years on the job to dump pension responsibilities.

Step 2: Increase the cost of retiree health care (the door was already opened to allow that in the last contract) thereby increasing the likely hood that anyone with over 20 years, will continue working (ideally until they die either on the job or very shortly after reaching the mandatory retirement age which he will also raise to 65 to help make that happen). **note, older spouses= less spousal benefits as well**

Step 3: In the following ten years, they make the same move to fire a large number of officers approaching the 20 year mark so they can avoid paying their pensions as well. This way, very few even make it to the 20 year mark.

I wouldn't put it past the city to play this kind of game, after all, everyone ran to the last contract with their hands out not even realizing what they were losing just for a few "base salary only" retro shekels. But this is way to obvious and has too much of a start up cost for this to fly. Also, they would need to have massive hiring and they do not have enough people interested in the job now. Imagine the quality of applicants that would be willing to take the job after something like that.

5/23/2016 03:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Buy and use your own ammo that falls under the Department's GOs! if you go on YouTube there are several groups that test ammunition according to FBI standards. They fire into bare gellatin and thru heavy denim and test for both penetration and expansion. I used to think just get hollow points and the rest will take care of itself, but watch these videos and see for yourself how all these different rounds perform in the caliber you're using. Many do great in the bare gellatin but then plug up and don't expand thru the heavy denim. I've found that the round that the City uses performs well. Was somewhat surprised there's been such issues with it but seems to be the Manufacturer (I hope). My personal favorite is Federal HST. A very consistent performer in all calibers IMO. Good luck finding it though.
Agreed! Federal HST +P is an excellent round!

5/22/2016 01:58:00 PM

If you are going to research different rounds, keep in mind that the barrel length of the test firearm effects their performance. Try to find testing that is done with the same barrel length as your weapon. Also, make sure the person testing it is using calibrated gel and suitable clothing (heavy denim) to accurately compare to other rounds. Avoid the backyard jug or watermelon shooting hillbillies.

5/23/2016 03:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hornady critical duty( not critical defense) is the best ammo for our pistols period end of conversation. It is a jacketed hollow point (so it conforms to dept orders) is +P (so it travels faster) and has a polymer plug inside the hollow point so that it doesn't get clogged up on an offenders clothing and fail to expand. It is the only bullet ever that is guaranteed to expand on impact which is really unheard of in the ammo world. 3 mags full of it will run you almost 50 bucks but it is the best stuff out there!


This is inaccurate. We did a very thorough ballistics gelatin test of the hornady ammo described. We used denim and tshirt as well on the outside. The test was with an engineer from ATK. We found the hornady to frequently over penetrate and on most occasions not even open up! I would still still stick with our Winchester jhp duty ammo. It does work. As BB says "it's all about holes in the bucket."

5/23/2016 08:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had a fatal police involved in 2000 where I used one round of Federal 147 grain Hi Shok and 4 rounds of OO Buck, other officers shot him with the same 9MM round and the sheriff's had 40s, I forget what round. He was wearing a leather jacket over a denim jacket. Many of the 9, 40, and most of the OO buck, most from under 7 yards got stopped by the described clothing. There were two different altercations, one he was standing and I fired the first shot, then a foot chase to a wounded area where he was located, laying down and wounded. I fired two rounds of OO and others fired handguns, and he slumped, ambulation after death occurred when he pointed the gun at us again. We all fire again. The COD was one of my pellets went down through his neck into his descending aorta. What stopped action was a pellet blowing off the thumb on his gun hand. Took a lot to stop him and even more to kill him. People soak up rounds like sponges. The only way you will get good visual feedback on a hit is if you hit the central nervous system or the structural system composed of bones, muscles, ligaments and tendons. Most rounds will effect the circulatory system. Rounds to the circulatory system are likely to lead to death, but do a very poor job at stopping the violent action. Shoot and move


Finally a veteran telling the Truth . Yep Hairgels and Co. this is how it really goes down

5/23/2016 08:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I pull the bullets in our issued ammo and dump the powder. I then reload my own for extra penetration and stoping power. I do this for six others and they love the round for its accuracy and reliability. If you have to use your weapon, the ballistics are focused on the bullet not the powder charge. The powder charge is gone when you fire the weapon.

5/22/2016 10:28:00 AM

You're a goof.

5/24/2016 06:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just to put a nail in this, turns out the story was a total non-issue. While technically it's true that the bullets didn't pass through the back of the jacket, that was after they had already passed through the front of the jacket AND the body of the assailant. The bullets acted exactly as they are designed to - they penetrated the jacket, dumped almost all of their energy into the body of the attacker, then exited the body without enough energy to cause further harm to bystanders.

This is why hollow points are recommended for carry.

The Bearing Arms Blog called BS on this story from the get go:

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

Now it is being confirmed:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-police-bullets-didn-bounce-knife-wielding-psycho-article-1.2659348

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06/03/claims-carhartt-jacket-stopped-nypd-bullets-false/

Speer Gold Dot is great ammunition. I carry it and Federal HST with confidence.

6/03/2016 02:00:00 PM  

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