IPRA Says What???
Recall back before J-Fed and before Ilana Rosenzweig, there existed an organization known as OPS.
The Office of Professional Standards was despised by the reverends and portions of the public because they cleared about 95% of the cases put before them. They were also hated by the police because they sustained 5% of the cases based on some of the most asinine, arbitrary and capricious reasoning known to man. Of the 5% sustained, most were overturned by the Superintendent, Police Board or various arms of the court. They were truly between rocks and hard places.
Now comes this item in the Sun Times:
The Office of Professional Standards was despised by the reverends and portions of the public because they cleared about 95% of the cases put before them. They were also hated by the police because they sustained 5% of the cases based on some of the most asinine, arbitrary and capricious reasoning known to man. Of the 5% sustained, most were overturned by the Superintendent, Police Board or various arms of the court. They were truly between rocks and hard places.
Now comes this item in the Sun Times:
The office that investigates Chicago police misconduct released its annual report Thursday afternoon, providing for the first time an accounting of its cases.
The report includes a breakdown of complaints and the outcome of investigations by the Independent Police Review Authority.
- The report said 42 of the 2,158 investigations closed by IPRA between September 2007 and August 2008 were sustained by IPRA — meaning the complaints were determined to be true.
Calculator Time!
- 42 = (unk)% of 2,158
- 42/2,159 = 0.01946
OPS is widely thought to have sustained around 5% of the cases it handled. IPRA sustains 1.9% of the cases against officers? Wow. Should we be thanking Shortshanks for the better investigations that actually clear officers and close bullshit ones?
Labels: department issues
posted by SCC at 12:07 AM
73 Comments:
In there big release did they have any figure showinghow many of the liars / cons / frauds were charged for filing TOTALLY FALSE COMPLAINTS?
Didn't think so.
Does that mean OPS is coming back?
"Investigating
People's
Ridiculous
Accusations"
OFF TOPIC SO IT MIGHT BE SEEN-
stupid rookie said...
stupid question here, but if you are written and approved for a d.c and you have not recived it yet, can you buy the ribbon and wear it, or do you have to wait until you physically receive the award in a ceramony or in the mail? ok, now let the stupid rookie comments start...but atleast answer my question if you can...then you can rip on me..that is all
10/09/2008 05:11:00 PM
A reasonable querry -
Run your complementary history on I CLEAR, if finalized/approved, it will be reflected here.
Buy the ribbon and wear it proudly, if you wait for the city to send or present it to you, you won't even remember the event itself some 3 years later.
Cost of awarding a DC to a deserving PO in the multi-purpose room at HQ with the accompaning cookies and lemonaid - 21.6 cents the last I heard.
Cost of awarding a DC to a deserving PO in the multi-purpose room at HQ, raising his morale and encouraging him to continue to do good work - Priceless
Anything this City or police department does is never in the advancement of doing it better. It is a joke.
Here is an ATOM BOMB revelation!
Maybe most (almost all of them)complaints lodged against members of the police department are complete bullshit!
Civilians who beef almost always don't know the law and they certainly don't know department policies and procedures. Most are just unhappy that baby's daddy (who they usually called on) got locked up. They want somebody to hear them and tell them everything is going to be okay.
All the complaint process does is give the citizens of Shitcago yet another forum to complain about their miserable lives.
The poor and the uneducated will always hate the Police, its a shame that the city give them an opportunity to voice their concerns. That task is best left to the criminal justice system.
A suspervisor who knows...
This is way off topic but must be shared with all. please take the time to watch this video, this video is of Comm. Charles Ramsey, Philidelphia P.D. giving the Eulogy at Officer Patrick McDonald. It is was awesome and shows the kind of man he is.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6423389
Wonderful...
July 2006: An officer allegedly slammed someone against a squad car in the Austin District, handcuffed the person without justification and cursed at the person. IPRA found the officer and the officer’s partner failed to complete a "contact card." IPRA recommended a 10-day suspension for the officer and two days for the partner.
Contact Cards will be completed for each and every stop. Heads are just gravy.
Wow! Time to sign up for the "super strike force"
Then again who is doing anything anymore since all these NEW entities came about??????
I used to always hear coppers and ASA's talking how only a quarter of the department did most of the work locking people up and those same coppers were always in court the most.
I would say the most active court right now is traffic court with our P/O's and the heinous beefs do not exist as much due to inactivity on locking dude up!
Signed
Outside looking in now...and from the cheap seats watching and rooting for you all since I can't afford to get dumped any further!
I am just sayin....
Now that's an improvement!
This goes to prove that most complaints are "Bullshit"!
The whining reverends and police hating public have nothing to hang their sorry asses on!
Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?
Political hacks hired as Investigators can only help the case, since they haven't a clue as to what investigation means.
Good for everybody. They get paid, can't sustain a conversation, let alone a case.
LET THE LAY OFFS BEGIN....
HEY SARGE GET READY TO START DOING CR NUMBERS FULL TIME. I KNOW ALL YOU SGT R GREAT INVESTIGATORS.
WHENEVER I ASK A SGT A QUESTION THEIR ANSWER " IM NOT SURE CHECK THE COMPUTER." THE FUTURE IS BLEAK.
from the slumtimes - - -
• November 2006: A drunk off-duty officer allegedly struck someone in the head in the South Chicago District. The alleged victim refused to cooperate with IPRA, so that allegation was dropped. But IPRA recommended a 30-day suspension because a Breathalyzer showed the officer was drunk.
While during the same month -
• November 2006: IPRA recommended a five-day suspension for a probationary officer who inadvertently discharged his weapon.
10/10/2008 02:23:00 AM
Anonymous said...
This is way off topic but must be shared with all. please take the time to watch this video, this video is of Comm..........
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank you for that post...incredible
July 2006: An officer allegedly slammed someone against a squad car in the Austin District, handcuffed the person without justification and cursed at the person. IPRA found the officer and the officer’s partner failed to complete a "contact card." IPRA recommended a 10-day suspension for the officer and two days for the partner.
20 years ago, my FTO told me something that stuck and now I remind my officers all the time: If you have to put your hands on him, he goes to jail.
Your best weapon is your pen. A good writer can always justify his actions in the narrative.
The IRPA/IAD still send most of the true bullshit CRs back to the accuseds' units for investigation because they know we will take care of them the right way and kill them on paper. They can thank the district/unit supervisors for the 1.9%.
You're welcome, Ms. Rosenzweig.
Several beefs I have had were because the complainant was "advised" by some douchebag copper that he knows to register a complaint. Listen, don't be a douche and tell your friends to beef on other coppers! What goes around will come around to you someday, assholes.
I have talked to some IPRA investigators after some police involved shootings. They get pissed off at these goofs who get on TV and say the offenders were choirboys and were A+ students turning their lives around and couldn't have been shooting at the police. They get to know the truth and they gag when they hear that.
Stay safe, the truth, maybe that is why 2% or less of investigations are sustained.
Anonymous said...
Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?
10/10/2008 06:22:00 AM
Great comment why not? They should be sued, if they have anything!
Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?
--------------------------------
Just what action would you have them take? Just because an arm of the city says there is not enough evidence to discipline or charge a city employee with a crime does not mean the complaint is false to the point where it is criminal.
""Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?""
Nah.....That wouldn't be "Politically correct" especially in an election year.
Hey, when are we going to be able to choose which laws to enforce like Sheriff "no more evictions" Tom Dart?
I'm Just sayin.....
we should, until the superintendent gets ahold of an already closed CR, re-opens it, and gives the copper time, even though he never investigated any of it.
This is way off topic but must be shared with all. please take the time to watch this video, this video is of Comm. Charles Ramsey, Philidelphia P.D. giving the Eulogy at Officer Patrick McDonald. It is was awesome and shows the kind of man he is.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6423389
10/10/2008 02:23:00 AM
Wasnt Ramsey on the short list when they were looking for a new Super after Hillard?
---
OFF TOPIC SO IT MIGHT BE SEEN-
stupid rookie said...
stupid question here, but if you are written and approved for a d.c and you have not recived it yet, can you buy the ribbon and wear it, or do you have to wait until you physically receive the award in a ceramony or in the mail? ok, now let the stupid rookie comments start...but atleast answer my question if you can...then you can rip on me..that is all
10/09/2008 05:11:00 PM
Some of us were just talking about this at work last week... small world... I would suggest that you call Personnel and try to find out where you stand in terms of receiving it.... as far as 'stupid rookie' questions, who cares? If you have a question, better to get in answered.... that will make you a smarter rookie. This dept is full of stupid people that don't ask questions. Anyone who slings mud at you probably doesn't know the answer either.
anonymous said...
Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?
10/10/2008 06:22:00 AM
1.no
2.votes
Anonymous said...
Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?
10/10/2008 06:22:00 AM
_________________________
Why not?
Because it's political pandering. If the city took action against an accuser, however dishonest, they would face the loosing constituents.
These people who make false complaints feel as if they are entitled to do so because of years of oppressive government tactics, such as enforcing the laws and not allowing them to steal, participate in gang activity and sell drugs.
That's also why the police, fireman, and law abiding citizens don't matter in this city; we are not their constituents; we would never vote for them and they know it so they must pander to the only people that would.
Without victims, liberals have no power.
This is way off topic but must be shared with all. please take the time to watch this video, this video is of Comm. Charles Ramsey, Philidelphia P.D. giving the Eulogy at Officer Patrick McDonald. It is was awesome and shows the kind of man he is.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6423389
WOW That was somthing
Your numbers are off. OPS sustained less than 1 percent of the cases, same as IPRA. From past article in Trib:
"But the extraordinarily low rate at which OPS sustained complaints -- less than 1 percent -- allowed bad cops to act with virtual impunity, critics said."
Has the City/Department taken any legal action against complainants who have lied in their complaint(s)and/or statements? If not, why?
If you have to ask, you are truly lost, but here is the answer anyway, It is because we live in Crook County, Sanctuary City, IL. OK?
Who cares? everytime I lock someone up its the same BS. Im finna call OPS on yo ass. i gots them on speedsdial fo u muthafuckas. Ok! call ops for getting locked up for being a criminal and convicted felon, go ahead who cares? If they fire me for doing my job(which in this day and age is quite possible) then i will go work some laborer job and bust my ass but be much less stressed out. And i guarantee i wont have to work with mutts, any job requiring physical labor wont see many animals thats for sure
so rosey and her hand picked team of professional investigators have discovered what we all knew a long time ago. talk to these people for two minutes and you see they are as bogus as hell and have an ir number and an agenda. all beef on the police because they are told to do so by their lawyers as a form of harassment to the arresting officer. and, of course, when they are caught in a bold faced lie, nothing happens to them because the powers that be do not want to discourage people from filing complaints against the police. who do you believe, the 20 year veteran officer or the shitbird dope dealer with the ten page rap sheet. i know the answer which is why i quit hunting a long time ago. i'm tired of seeing myself and other good cops i work with being dragged thru the mud by these j/o's. maybe rosey and her "professional" investigators should spend a year humping a beat car and see what it's like to be on the other side.
look for them to re-open then sustain a shit load of CRs to make the BS ministers and minority communities happy!!! HOLD ON TO YOUR BOOT STRAPS, THE SHIT STORM IS COMING!!!
i agree with the supervisor...plus. alot of these ghetto dogs run into the local alderman s office in a state of hysteria to generate complaints. many because we put the kabosh on their little drug operation. then the alderman calls his boy/district commander and whines t o him
I love IPRA!they re opened a beef from 2000 alleging excessive force in an on duty shooting. I received the Award of Valor and 12 days for the same incident. After IPRA re-investigated the incident, it was re classified as...Not Sustained!
This is way off topic but must be shared with all. please take the time to watch this video, this video is of Comm. Charles Ramsey, Philidelphia P.D. giving the Eulogy at Officer Patrick McDonald. It is was awesome and shows the kind of man he is.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6423389
*********************************
Thats what a leader sounds like.
RIP, Sgt. McDonald
Wonderful...
July 2006: An officer allegedly slammed someone against a squad car in the Austin District, handcuffed the person without justification and cursed at the person. IPRA found the officer and the officer’s partner failed to complete a "contact card." IPRA recommended a 10-day suspension for the officer and two days for the partner.
Contact Cards will be completed for each and every stop. Heads are just gravy.
----------------------------------
If 'cuffs go on, then he goes in.
Not a cop here---I have a question. If scumbags file a complaint and that complaint is bullshit why aren't they charged with making a false report? I have seen that mentioned here but do supervisors prevent officers from doing that? How does that work? Because if someone accused me of something that stays on my record and they lied and the government proved that they lied, isn't that a crime?
OFF TOPIC SO IT MIGHT BE SEEN-
stupid rookie said...
stupid question here, but if you are written and approved for a d.c and you have not recived it yet, can you buy the ribbon and wear it, or do you have to wait until you physically receive the award in a ceramony or in the mail? ok, now let the stupid rookie comments start...but atleast answer my question if you can...then you can rip on me..that is all
---------------------
Awards are meaningless. Always have been. Always will be.
Never accept them, never buy them, never wear them.
If you do something deserving of an award and someone confronts you, deny it was you. If anyone asks you to justify an award, tell them it was nothing to remember and, in fact, you do not remember it and you have a headache and you are immediately going on the medical.
Having them, wishing for them, wanting them, looking at them on other people's uniform...all creates a psychological dependence on this department. You want something from it. If it gives it to you, you are happy. If it doesn't, you are sad. In the end, your dependence will kill you.
This is just a job. Nothing more. You want to save the world, start a blog. You want someone to love you, buy a dog.
Your reward is your paycheck. That is all the reward you should need. You should take a ceremonial picture of yourself every time you grab that direct deposit receipt.
Do things on this job for yourself. No one else. Once done, never speak of them again.
If you so much as wear one ribbon on your chest, I guarantee you will die within five years of retirement. They will pin it to your shirt as you lay in your casket and a pension board member will come to your wake, see it, and smile.
The fact that you even mentioned this topic means you will certainly be dead within 10 years of retirement.
The fact that I answered you means I will be dead within 20.
If you never even speak of them, you will live years and years after retirement, fondly remembering all those photos of you...cashing your checks.
(OT) Just recived the pension board ballot, sent it in right away vote for SHIELDS the only one who stood up for us against huberman! While the other sheep would of gave him the huge undeserved pension Shields stood up for us! After this I will push to make Shields FOP president and dump marky lazy ass with the rest! They cannot get the fop letter out on time, when it comes alot of things in it are alreday past another drink??
Unfortunately those involved with the paper on the Abbate case are getting stomped. Hung out to dry by the city in a political statement.
How about a RD# and false police report for each incident that was a clear fraud. If this city wants arrest, there are thousands of arrest just sitting there.
IPRA is a Joke...
You should see the the "investigators" they send out to crime scenes. One M/1 showed up with oversized baggie blues jeans, a black hoody, and a ball cap tilted to one side...
I stopped him from entering and he got very defensive and told me he was with IPRA...Of course he was not wearing and/or displaying any Identification....
He had the nervto write MY name down as if he was going to tell on me...
By the way The head of IPRA did the same thing minus the baggie blue jeans....They are Rude and never have their Identification Displayed....
OT--Sorry:
Did not know where else to post it. Was just at Produce World. Couple in front of me, 20's, two kids. Guy white, girl Hispanic. Tells cashier, oh, I need to split this order. The food is on Link. So I look down, and he's got a 12 pack of Heineken!!! So he pays with Link, then pulls out a CHASE CREDIT CARD to pay for the beer, which was 13.99 for a 12 pack. Crap, I can't even afford that!!!
THIS IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY!!!! PLEASE VOTE MCCAIN!!! Or the gravy train is just going to keep getting longer, and none of us is allowed aboard!!!!
Sorry for the rant:)
So What is a pre-cr? Anyone had at look at one of these?
Bravo Batman!!!
The great cover up is over and the truth be told!!!
Most dirt bag citizens are truly fuckin lying and can't and don't know what the truth really is. Because they is ignorant.
The poor and the uneducated will always hate the Police, its a shame that the city give them an opportunity to voice their concerns. That task is best left to the criminal justice system.
A suspervisor who knows...
10/10/2008 01:11:00 AM
A supervisor who knows shit!
Where are you coming from?
The poor and the uneducated have no authority figure to turn to EXCEPT the police.
You must have failed sociology and promoted meritoriously. Joke!
This is way off topic but must be shared with all. please take the time to watch this video, this video is of Comm. Charles Ramsey, Philidelphia P.D. giving the Eulogy at Officer Patrick McDonald. It is was awesome and shows the kind of man he is.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6423389
10/10/2008 02:23:00 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Wonderful...
July 2006: An officer allegedly slammed someone against a squad car in the Austin District, handcuffed the person without justification and cursed at the person. IPRA found the officer and the officer’s partner failed to complete a "contact card." IPRA recommended a 10-day suspension for the officer and two days for the partner.
Contact Cards will be completed for each and every stop. Heads are just gravy.
10/10/2008 02:23:00 AM
Easy to solve. No more contact with non-complainants/victims = no beef.
10 days for not completing a contact card, let the mayhem continue.
"10/10/2008 04:53:00 PM"
God damn, man, that was one sweet post of truth.
Anonymous said...
Just what action would you have them take? Just because an arm of the city says there is not enough evidence to discipline or charge a city employee with a crime does not mean the complaint is false to the point where it is criminal.
10/10/2008 10:38:00 AM
__________________________
Since you seem totally ignorant of the process, I'll enlighten you.
When anyone files a complaint against an officer or department member, he or she must sign an affidavit swearing that the statements and accusations are true. In many cases the complainant is found to be lying or admits to lying on the complaint. Knowingly lying in an affidavit IS A CRIMINAL ACT and he or she is subject to CRIMINAL CHARGES. Stop defending people who refuse to hold themselves to the standards they place on the police.
Now take your alley lawyer degree and shove it. Go and be liberal where it is appreciated... like a socialist/anti-America rally and chant "Obama" untill you're blue in the face.
Michael Shields is on his game unlike Steve Robbins who has fell asleep at the wheel on several occasions and voted to allow the politically connected to take our pension funds. Vote for Mike he clearly DOES NOT FEAR bosses or politicians! He will look out for our best interest
Dan Shields
018th District Patrolman
OT,
Anybody who has a case in room 606 Judge Porter's courtroom do not go, boycott the case. Judge Porter once again today proved himself totally incompetent.
We are proving if we stay together we are a powerful group. Let's keep it going.
Is it true they are coming out with a (SFIPRA)also known as
Striker Force IPRA. I Heard a guy called Commander Big Bird is running it.
We're missing the big picture. These bogus complaints placed good coppers in the BIS program.
OT: I did go to the link and viewed the live clip of Philidelphia Police Comm C. Ramsey,(I remember when he was here with CPD but never met him) when I attended Nate's (RIP) funeral last week I was so absolutely pissed off by Jody Weis and his scripted SPEECH that he read I could have screamed right there in St. Bede, it was the worst shit that I have ever witnessed at a funeral. Comm Ramsey is a cop a real true blue cop and with each word I felt his sorrow and hurt. My deepest sympathy go to the PPD on the loss of another of OUR own.
As for Weis go back to where ever the hell you came from. CPD needs a cop who has been there and done that! He can never understand what it feels like to hurt when ONE OF YOUR OWN HAS BEEN KILLED...he has no clue and at the funeral he showed his true colors and they certainly aren't BLUE.
God Bless Us All!
They shouldn't even allow these jagoffs to FILE complaints without a signed affidavit. What bullshit. Don't see the media on this story, though do you? Less than 2% are sustained against the police...when is that gonna come out of some news reporter's mouth?
Anonymous said...
(OT) Just recived the pension board ballot, sent it in right away vote for SHIELDS the only one who stood up for us against huberman! While the other sheep would of gave him the huge undeserved pension Shields stood up for us! After this I will push to make Shields FOP president and dump marky lazy ass with the rest! They cannot get the fop letter out on time, when it comes alot of things in it are alreday past another drink??
10/10/2008 04:54:00 PM
I sent in my ballot right away Go Shields you have my vote!
TO: OFF TOPIC SO IT MIGHT BE SEEN-
stupid rookie said...
stupid question here, but if you are written and approved for a d.c and you have not recived it yet, can you buy the ribbon and wear it, or do you have to wait until you physically receive the award in a ceramony or in the mail? ok, now let the stupid rookie comments start...but atleast answer my question if you can...then you can rip on me..that is all
---------------------
Unfortunately at last count the department is approx 5000+ awards behind. What the hell has that unit been doing....? Further more bs or not officers should be recognized for the good job that they do, just because you had a boss that wouldnt take the time to type and submit, don't hate those that do.
Michael Shields is on his game unlike Steve Robbins who has fell asleep at the wheel on several occasions and voted to allow the politically connected to take our pension funds. Vote for Mike he clearly DOES NOT FEAR bosses or politicians! He will look out for our best interest
Dan Shields
018th District Patrolman
10/10/2008 11:07:00 PM
ahhhhh HAAAAAA so NOW we know who the REAL culprit is who continuously posts about Mike Shields being god, and Mike Shield for FOP prez and Mike Shields is the man blah blah blah PLEASE STOP NOW THAT THE BALLOTS ARE OUT!!! PLEASE WE BEG YOU!!!
hey kid people who have one robbon on look like goofs
Since you seem totally ignorant of the process, I'll enlighten you.
When anyone files a complaint against an officer or department member, he or she must sign an affidavit swearing that the statements and accusations are true. In many cases the complainant is found to be lying or admits to lying on the complaint. Knowingly lying in an affidavit IS A CRIMINAL ACT and he or she is subject to CRIMINAL CHARGES. Stop defending people who refuse to hold themselves to the standards they place on the police.
Now take your alley lawyer degree and shove it. Go and be liberal where it is appreciated... like a socialist/anti-America rally and chant "Obama" untill you're blue in the face.
___________________________________
The standard for IPRA and IAD investigations is preponderance of evidence. Criminal cases are beyond a reasonable doubt. I think by either standard, you are stupid.
By the way The head of IPRA did the same thing minus the baggie blue jeans....They are Rude and never have their Identification Displayed....
---------------------------------
Do IPRA rules require their employees to display ID?
OT,
Anybody who has a case in room 606 Judge Porter's courtroom do not go, boycott the case. Judge Porter once again today proved himself totally incompetent.
We are proving if we stay together we are a powerful group. Let's keep it going.
What happened?
"Vote for Mike he clearly DOES NOT FEAR bosses or politicians! He will look out for our best interest
Dan Shields
018th District Patrolman
10/10/2008 11:07:00 PM"
Not that having the same last name would make your endorsement biased or anything right???
If that guy handcuffed the person and then locked him up he does not need to make out a contact card. Someone is Bs ing
Fuck IPRA....
This city if full of shit... SWORN AFFIDAVIT means nothing when people still lie... they should at lest get locked up for falsifying a police report... but nope...whatever dude.. this city blows.... I am moving to Arizona and going to become a prostitute!
oh poo!
Anonymous said...
The standard for IPRA and IAD investigations is preponderance of evidence. Criminal cases are beyond a reasonable doubt. I think by either standard, you are stupid.
10/11/2008 01:13:00 PM
__________________________
Good point... except it has nothing to do with what I said.
An affidavit is a formal sworn statement, and if the affiant is untruthful, he or she could be held on perjury charges. I strongly believe that he or she should be charged with a crime. Don't officers get charged with a crime if they falsify an arrest report, or lie in court? What makes the accuser any different?
The standards of the investigations are irrelevant. The results of the investigation do not determine if the accuser was lying, only that there was no evidence that the incident occurred.
That being said... piss off.
"I am moving to Arizona and going to become a prostitute!
10/11/2008 10:00:00 PM"
What makes you think that you'd pass the physical?
Awards are meaningless.........
How totally right on. I come here less and less because of the meaningless cesspool of crap posted here. Out of the muck arises a beacon of truth.
>>>By the way The head of IPRA did the same thing minus the baggie blue jeans....They are Rude and never have their Identification Displayed....
10/10/2008 05:06:00 PM<<
The IPRA investigators I have delt with at police shootings were very professional. Now the people from the mayor's office and the local alderman's office are another story.
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