National Media Notices
The brazen, daylight slaying last week of Officer Michael Flisk underscores what Chicago police have been saying for months: They are increasingly confronting people willing to attack them even as overall violent crime in Chicago continues to fall.
Five police officers have been killed in the line of duty this year — the most in at least 25 years. A sixth police officer was gunned down as he sat in his vehicle while off-duty just a few days before Flisk's death. Add to that, the number of reports of batteries on police officers has nearly tripled in just over a decade.
In 2009, there were just under 3,300 reports of battery on a police officer, more than twice as many as were reported in 2002 and nearly triple the number reported in 1999.
Labels: we got nothing
posted by SCC at 12:09 AM
67 Comments:
"Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."
As long as we can remember this....
"He's Only a Cop"..........
That's what the powers that be think (and a large minority of the public)............
We are (were) the line between civilization and barbarianism...
We Do (Did) God's work.....
God Bless the Greatest PD in the World......
God Save the United States......
Oh Yeah, And NEVER, NEVER EVER Trust a fed.........
Well, the national media has noticed, but the comments are frighteningly hateful toward the police. Comments justifying killing cops in retaliation for 'corruption' (which one writer equates with issuing citations for speeding)...scary stuff.
The climate out here seems devoid of all common decency.
After reading article I read some of the comments...this country is going down the tubes
I see the lunatic fringe (I hope) police hating commenters are out in full force.
As usual, the public comments after the story are mostly anti-police, perhaps another reason these assholes are getting so bold. They get to make venomous comments on these stories and the left wing media just posts them right up there, giving the police haters a public forum for their shit. I'm surprised there are even any pro police stories out there anymore from the socialist press!
Figures lie, liars figure!
Police shooting in 006 tonight, offender DOA
If the bad guy gets the upper hand the officer will not get a second chance. The past few murders of police officers has shown this. They have been shooting the officers in the head at point blank range after he in down on the ground. The offender does not have anything to lose. The criminals do not have any use of force models and have no money. They don't fear civil law suits and they are willing to kill. Jail has become a net working, information and training ground. We are not supper people, we are just human. The criminals do short streches and are getting violent. They are pointing their violence at police because we are the only ones who stand between them and jail. Until there is real sentences and jail time, the murders will continue. In parting there are no do overs. Officer safety is up most and should not be taken for granted. Don't give wave offs, get out of the car with your partner and don't let your guard down around strangers. Go back to what you were taught, go back to the basics. Stay safe.
While everyone likes to think of 'crime' as this big, broad stroke of fact, the relevant data is only seen upon looking one layer deeper, into 'crime types'.
The macro argument- that 'overall crime is down'- tells us absolutely nothing. If car thefts, drug arrests and UUW's break statistically downward but robberies, rapes and assaults/homicides against police officers are up, which of those two datasets speaks more directly to the state of social order?
Gang wars over drugs or turf will increase/decrease the homicide rate year over year depending on larger factors, however, the assassination of numerous police officers in one year tells us of a type of social decay that is much, much deeper, much harder to deal with.
I think the answer to these questions lies in looking to the past. This isn't Chicago's first rodeo when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. We've handled it successfully in the past, I believe we will deal with it successfully going forward, but yes, it's hard to think of better days now, when the low point we're in is just so damn low.
Anonymous said...
Well, the national media has noticed, but the comments are frighteningly hateful toward the police. Comments justifying killing cops in retaliation for 'corruption' (which one writer equates with issuing citations for speeding)...scary stuff.
The climate out here seems devoid of all common decency.
12/05/2010 01:09:00 AM
It's comments like that that motivate me to write a few more movers.
The further left we swing the more the police are hated and targeted.
The police in places like East Germany and other Iron Curtin countries were despised, for good reason, but police in the U.S. can not be compared to them by any stretch of the imagination.
Just ignore and laugh at the comments. At some point the writers of the comments will seek help from the police.
They need us more than we need them.
Your municipal leaders hold you in contempt because their voters hate you.
Never forget that.
Someone is manipulating the stats. It doesn't add up.
Heard the FOP radio commercial today...bashing the lack of manpower etc. Well said !
not only is violence against police officers rising across the country, but how about all the law suits--- it seems they are also on the rise.... officers are not totally indemnified against civil lawsuits and can be liable for punitive damages--- worse yet is the increasing disconnect between blue shirts and management--- the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing anymore---
"If I...saw that I was the cause of (poor) morale in this department, no one would have to ask me to leave. I would leave on my own." - J-FLED the LIAR, April 2, 2009
"Gotta run." J-FLED the COWARD, April 2, 2010
No police on the street since the city won't hire compared to the retirements and less detectives to investigate crimes. Over three years and counting without a class.
The break down of law and order stems from poor leadership of those who are responsible and who make the laws in the city and state. The result is attacks on you police and also we citizens. I blame this soley on Daley in the city and Madigan and Cullerton at the state level. And you cops do not have the backing of Weis so you can add him to the list of poor and unqualified leaders. The storefront reverends and the likes of Jackson, Meeks and all the other players are responsible too. When the leadership is poor, as it was in the late 60's and early
70's, we find ourselves in the same situation as then. We are living now IMO in a time of history repeating itself.
"The macro argument- that 'overall crime is down'- tells us absolutely nothing. If car thefts, drug arrests and UUW's break statistically downward but robberies, rapes and assaults/homicides against police officers are up, which of those two datasets speaks more directly to the state of social order? "
Would crime stats be DOWN if, lets just say, Officers made fewer arrests?
We are a couple of hundred short EACH MONTH!
Cook Co. closed TWO divisions at 26th & Calif.
Would those stats account for this alledged drop in crime?
Recently had an opportunity to speak with an individual who served on a civil jury in federal court where police officers were being sued for alleged excessive force. The juror explained that the majority of the people on the jury were virulently anti police from the beginning and the judge's questions did not explore the jurors' prejudice against police officers. Even though the officers' defense counsel thoroughly impeached the plaintiff and his witnesses, several of the jurors wanted to find all the officers liable and award damages including punitive damages. The holdouts on the jury were the minority who wanted to find for the police officers. After several days of deliberations, a compromise verdict was reached and only one officer was found liable. The result was not what the minority wanted but felt it was the best they could get under the circumstances.
The lessons are many. First, police officers face an uphill battle in any civil litigation. Second, the manner of picking a jury in federal court is not adequate to weed out those jurors who are prejudiced against law enforcement. Third, the idea of 12 "angry men" who will not compromise their principles just to reach a verdict exists only in the movies.
Police unions and departments need to be proactive in presenting a marketing campaign about the good that police officers do on a regular basis. The image of police officers must be improved in the public's eye in order to avoid a jury pool which is automatically anti police. That sounds crazy but that is the reality. Most people only have experience with the police when they receive a ticket or read the lame stream media's stories painting the police as violent or corrupt.
The police unions and law enforcement community should use its considerable voting power to lobby congress for changes in the law including the federal rules of civil procedure to insist on requiring more adequate questioning of jurors to weed out cop haters. Finally, the law enforcement community should be vocal about those federal judges in whose courtrooms the police always lose. Their is no doubt that the manner in which a federal judge conducts the trial can influence the outcome.
Having been around for a while working on the south side in the late 80's and 90's, I think violent crime, IS DOWN. Face it, things aren't as crazy as they used to be. Anyone who spent the first part of the 90's in the Duece, Englewood or 11 or other places knows this. This is not to say that the number of people shot are as low as they make them out to be.
I think the violence against police is not tied to other violence, however. The mayor, the media, J-Fed, and other quasi-politicians like Flager and Jesse have demonized us. The the multitudes of uneducated we are the enemy, despite that most decent folks like us. The Mayor never said a word about Flisk or the High number of officers being attacked and killed. They make a big deal out of the CPS students shot and killed, and many times this is unfortunate, although more often it is their gang banger life style and nothing to do with school. Not a beep about attacks on officers. Not Flager or Jackson or any of the reverends who now use the CPD as their own political arm. Their silence is like tacit approval.
We're being attacked because it is looked at as payback and revenge by former gang members like Bobby Rush, Danny Davis and Luis Gutierez (FALN, kind of a gang. Weis even got in on the act by persecuting Cozi for the worst civil rights violation he had ever seen.
We are being attacked because the people who should be the most vocal in our defense and outraged about this condition are giving approval to evil doers to attack us.
Cooking the books, that was the theme of a recent Blue Blood TV show, but that is the CPD everyday, as a retired Detective it was common place to downgrade your cases to Part two crimes. That was expected making burglaries became thefts and sometimes even homicides became death investigations. I remember reading cases which were reclassifed from auto theft to loss property in that the victim forgot where he parked his park his car and bike thefts were always loss property. How about loosing your hub caps in the car wash instead the real crime of being stolen. Ask any old time Detective the proper wording to make the boss look good.
Or it could be that these kind of things go in cycles for no discernible reason, much as the weather does.
It is easy to read a lot more into things then is really there.
As for the battery on a police officer charges increasing, it might just be that more people are being charged for actiosn that in the past would not.
It is very hard to make any general conclusions based on statistics like this. There is no logical reason that batteries on cops would increase dramatically in a period of time when other violent crimes are trending down.
Let the Police-Hating Liberal Do-Gooders protect themselves. Lets see just how long they last...
As usual the media is NOT paying attention. Timothy Herring Jr. committed the crime he was convicted for in 2007 and was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in July of 2010 he shot a guy in June of 2010 and then went to jail in July he then was released in September on home monitoring sitting TWO MONTHS of a SIX YEAR sentence yet all of the media is stating that he did HALF of his sentence
not to mention....feds indicting police officers is also at an all time high.....be careful...the feds are watching us just as much as the bad guys...we are looked upon as the same....with one exception...we make better headlines.
The predators know our actions will be second guessed, that only makes them bolder. Therein lies the problem...
There Is A Large Portion Of Our Society That Has No Love For This Country.
There Is A Large Portion Of Our Society That Has Been Raised With No Love Of God, Or Morals.
There Is A Large Portion OF Our Society That Has Been Raised Thinking They Are Victims, and They Are Entitled To A Good Life, At The Expense Of Others.
"The Chickens Have Come Home To Roost"
They've noticed and promptly forgotten.
A troubling sign of the times.
The frightening thing is in reading the comments. We would hazard that actual interaction with the Police is slim to none and most of the posters as is most of society is just mindlessly parroting what they see/hear in the liberal socialist media.
A lot of mindless posturing... "I have my Glock, I don't need the Police for anything..." Common sense, mental and sensory acuity have abdicated the throne of reason in the United States.
As far as the situation in Chicago goes...
The media control/spin and public brain-washing apparatus of Daley Inc. has largely succeeded in separating CPD from sympathetic light and public goodwill.
The increased attacks on Police was the price shortshanks, j-fled and the exempts along with the decaying alive, anal-whore local media were willing to paid with the blood of very good men to execute their end game of destroying CPD for all the wrong reasons, of course.
We opine that 21 years of theft, fraud and well orchestrated fuckery by Daley Inc., the alderwhores, big money contributors/charitable institutions, corrupted courts and judges along with the cottage industry of the a cabal of lawyers who have raised suing Police Officers for obscene profit, kick-backs and redistribution of the proceeds to some/certain members of Daley Inc., including the runnin' dog, gang banging, dope money laundering rever'rear-ends.
Daley Inc. has set the table. They're afraid of CPD because we see and air their misdeeds.
They have no fear whatsoever of the feds because they moved Heaven and Earth to install "The Hollow Dude" aka "The Fakir of Fuckery" who in turn installed a windmill tilting fool and loyal liberal socialist stooge over DOJ which has essentially declared war on Police Officers nationwide.
Funny how they won't pursue the corporate crooks who have "off shored" this country into oblivion for profit with the same zeal and hateful intent they heap on the people who really are the thin line between chaos and order.
Our senior subject matter experts relate that they have never seen such a mean season to be the Police where any good that is done is intentionally driven off the stage by the constant drum beat of "Police = greedy, brutal, corrupt" and repeated to the point so as to be true in the minds of the public.
We say this to shortshanks and j-fled...
Yes, we are the Police. No, we're not second class citizens no matter how you wish it were so. Not now not ever!
The day will come when you will PAY for the crimes you've committed against the men and women of this Department. You both have blood on your hands for playing games with people's lives.
We will keep exposing you dirty bastards in any and every way we can. No matter how hard you try to keep the clear-eyed, blessed few REAL citizens in the dark as to your schemes and machinations.
We try our best to honor our oath... You two take your oaths as mere suggestions and minor inconvenience.
Neither one of you has rendered full, fair and honorable service to those same blessed few citizens.
You've served and empowered dogs, jackals, vermin and carrion. You've given voice and power to empty and sightless animal skulls that were best left mute and bleaching in the sun.
You've taken rightful power from the guardians and lawful authority to use it on behalf of the blessed few citizens for the sake of politics and spite.
Both of you are curiously and specially made to be embraced by all the demons, imps and ill humours of Hell.
The short-sighted and wrongdoers praise you two fools for your misdeeds.
Good people rightfully profane you two with maledictions.
Both of your final places of unrest will be places of mockery. Animals great and small will sniff, lift a leg or squat in salute to you both...
A clink of the rock glass to the brotherhood of the Silitoe Tartan.
God Bless us all. God Bless our departed comrades taken from us all too soon.
WRT: "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."
Let's just call it "tech savvy"
shots fired at police in 022 last night
wow some of the comments. citizens of this city.. those who left those...can burn in hell..Id gladly stand and watch them burn, robbed, and raped and murdered over and over again while they cry for help..from us.. thugs with guns..STUPID SHEEP..BAAAAAA BAAAAAA. Lost In Fillmore !
Anonymous said...
Well, the national media has noticed, but the comments are frighteningly hateful toward the police. Comments justifying killing cops in retaliation for 'corruption' (which one writer equates with issuing citations for speeding)...scary stuff.
The climate out here seems devoid of all common decency.
12/05/2010 01:09:00 AM
Fight fire with a greater fiercer fire. Call for backup on all stops. Be aware of your surroundings when in Indian country. Keep your head on a swivel. Carry a small gut gun, preferably on the weak side and definitely concealed. A knife also, practice getting that blade out in a hurry. Make a plan, be prepared to bite and gouge and anything else.
Fuck the savages. Go home safe, put them in the ground.
The reason why the criminal element fights us is because: 1. They don't fear us. They know that they can beat the fuck out of us. But we can't do that to them. So why not fight the police? They can fight unfair. We have to fight fair (comply with the use of force policy). 2. Even if they are arrested and charged with aggravated battery to police officer, they'll get a slap on the wrist. The state's attorney doesn't care if the bad guy fought with you. They'll only care if you are dead or in a coma.
Honestly, are we supposed to be motivated if our own legal system won't support us? If our hands are tied when dealing with criminals who want to injure us or worse kill us? That is what society needs to decide.
my husband calls work today to see what his start time is, and who he's working with, and the desk tell him he's 99. are you fucking kidding me. 99 on midnights, after all that has happened in recent months no one should be 99, they should send a desk guy out, it just makes me sick, no one cares, morale is low, and and i guess lessons havent been learned yet.
FUCK THE YUPPIES... i know most chicago po's do not usually like to write or lock up "normal working people"... these fucks hate up more then the gang bangers... it ain't pookie writting the hatefull comments on the blogs it's yuppie fucks/// jury just awarded shithead 70K... for an officer that justifiably used his asp to strike an assalant twice--- guy did not go do hospital--did NOT have injures other than a bruise, was plead guilt to resisting... YET THE YUPPIE FUCKING JURY felt the officer should not of used an ASAP since the 300lbs offender was unarmed
The stats are fixed. CPD bosses are cooking the books.
You wonder why the anti-police comments are there? Didn't Bill Ayers just retire from poisoning the minds of our young college students for the last twenty years?
He's not the only criminal liberal asshole out there. They go to a college or university and come out half brainwashed with this commie propaganda. If they're lucky, they hit the real world and learn that most of the crap they were fed was bullshit.
If not, they grow up to be subversive assholes like most of the "czars" Obama has put in. They admire Mao, a butcher of his own people who kept freedom under his hoof.
When these assholes tell you they're "progressives" just remember what that's code for. They want a small intellectual elite to lord over the population of workers because they think they know better than those workers how to live their lives.
Democrats are freedom hating scum.
POS shoots at the police. Police fire back. POS shot & killed. Grandma sues city and even says it was her fault leaving the gun on the table. City gives grandma 12 million. Why is everyone shaking their head that attacks on the police are up? The feds were supposed to give homeland security money to Chicago to fight terrorism and Shitcago instead uses it to fund terrorism. And of course spread it around amongst the lawers and judges. Best question I ever got from a confused civillian in DUI court "What did my lawyer mean when told me $2,000.00 for the judge?"
Crime stats show decrease in violent crime for the 23rd month in a row????...I guess the line item for violent crimes and murder against police officers didn't make it to the final spreadsheet or final calculation...
Don't worry. When Rahm becomes mayor, he'll teach us all the tricks he learned with the Israeli Defense Forces.
Even Santa Clause assaults the police!
'Santa' Accused Of Battery To Cop & Store Worker
Adam Klimek, of Uptown, was charged with felony aggravated battery to police and misdemeanor counts of battery and criminal trespass, police said.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2946092,CST-NWS-santa1205.article
I had a 40ish, white, yuppie woman in a new SAAB tell me the day of PO Flisk's funeral (after I gave her a ticket) that: "they buried the wrong cop this morning"
I MF'd her up and down and yes, it was on video and yes, I dared her to complain and get a CR number.
Even the people who you would think are were on our side hate us.
People don't give a fuck about you and me, but G-d help you if you take 5 minutes to show up to write a parker on their neighbor that they called in.
As usual the media is NOT paying attention. Timothy Herring Jr. committed the crime he was convicted for in 2007 and was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in July of 2010 he shot a guy in June of 2010 and then went to jail in July he then was released in September on home monitoring sitting TWO MONTHS of a SIX YEAR sentence yet all of the media is stating that he did HALF of his sentence
He was in custody from 2007 onward brainiac. The custodial time is considered "time served." The shooting in June of 2010 was not prosecuted because the victim feared retaliation.
Now who isn't "paying attention?"
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I had a 40ish, white, yuppie woman in a new SAAB tell me the day of PO Flisk's funeral (after I gave her a ticket) that: "they buried the wrong cop this morning"
I MF'd her up and down and yes, it was on video and yes, I dared her to complain and get a CR number.
Even the people who you would think are were on our side hate us.
People don't give a fuck about you and me, but G-d help you if you take 5 minutes to show up to write a parker on their neighbor that they called in.
12/05/2010 04:32:00 PM
I worked in 023 and even though it's a lot safer to work in compared to the west or south side, they white liberal yuppies hate us just as much as the folks on the south or west side do.
My partner had to use his baton against a police fighter and once we got him under control and handcuffed him, several citizens yelled at our Sgt. that we used excessive force.
I really need to stop reading the comments on these articles. All it does it raise my blood pressure and lower my morale...
ummmmmmmmm 05:06:00 PM he was out on bond
You should know this. Citizens of Chicago will take up arms to defend themselves and defend the the police if they need help. I will use my illegal weapons and fire on ANYONE threatening my life or the life of a police officer in my neighborhood. Do you feel lucky punk?
The comment I posted here was not. Anti-police, it was incompetent about workers in the records department.
When I get frustrated because of criminals stalking and assaulting and harassing me and my family, I repeat what two officers told me when it looked like my apartment had been burglarized, do not enter your apartment, call us, even if you just hear a noise, or see something out of kilter, that is what we are here for."
Poor leadership is also the cause of attacks on police.
People like Rep Danny Davis, who refers to the lawndale predators as the boys and then screams bloody murder when he gets a ticket, he deserved, for driving like he was drunk, I was a witness, thugs, predators, child sex traffickers go crazy and attack everyone.
It is a trend that is on the way out, soon this insanity will stop.
As usual the media is NOT paying attention. Timothy Herring Jr. committed the crime he was convicted for in 2007 and was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in July of 2010 he shot a guy in June of 2010 and then went to jail in July he then was released in September on home monitoring sitting TWO MONTHS of a SIX YEAR sentence yet all of the media is stating that he did HALF of his sentence
He was in custody from 2007 onward brainiac. The custodial time is considered "time served." The shooting in June of 2010 was not prosecuted because the victim feared retaliation.
Now who isn't "paying attention?"
Seeing you have so much information on this case-why didn't you persuade that party to testify? Was any protection afforded him/her? Now a police officer is dead because of your incompetence. Thanks for nothing.
"12/05/2010 10:57:00 AM"
i'm gonna take a wild guess here and ask you a question:
just how long does it taker you to decide if you have to shit or not?
"Would those stats account for this alledged drop in crime?
12/05/2010 09:37:00 AM"
why, yes, yes it would.
"We are living now IMO in a time of history repeating itself.
12/05/2010 09:35:00 AM"
time to line up the shopping carts and prepare for the riot sales event?
ummmmmmmmm 05:06:00 PM he was out on bond
Ummmmmm, no he wasn't. He was on parole for the 2007 offense. Read the articles. What is this, amateur night here?
" I will use my illegal weapons and fire on ANYONE threatening my life or the life of a police officer in my neighborhood. Do you feel lucky punk?
12/05/2010 07:28:00 PM"
maintain good cover and concealment at all times and practice slipping silently back into the shadows when you've accomplished your task.
just a suggestion.
"they white liberal yuppies hate us just as much as the folks on the south or west side do."
give them time, sooner then later, they'll get a taste of the beast and be begging for assistance.
"My partner had to use his baton against a police fighter and once we got him under control and handcuffed him, several citizens yelled at our Sgt. that we used excessive force.
12/05/2010 06:01:00 PM"
offer them the opportunity to make the arrest in their own, imagined, fashion.
nothing teaches better than hands on experience
"People don't give a fuck about you and me, but G-d help you if you take 5 minutes to show up to write a parker on their neighbor that they called in.
12/05/2010 04:32:00 PM"
write no parker before it's time.
Now a police officer is dead because of your incompetence. Thanks for nothing.
Ummmm, dumbass? It was in all the articles SCC linked. That's why there's additional charges on this good because he finally found his nutsack in a jar somewhere. Don't blame us you can't read worth a shit.
"Seeing you have so much information on this case-why didn't you persuade that party to testify? Was any protection afforded him/her? Now a police officer is dead because of your incompetence. Thanks for nothing.
12/05/2010 09:27:00 PM"
I'm not a cop, I just play one in my fantasies.
"My partner had to use his baton against a police fighter and once we got him under control and handcuffed him, several citizens yelled at our Sgt. that we used excessive force.
12/05/2010 06:01:00 PM
The "yuppie" or the young liberal asshole is often just as much trouble as the common criminal. Keep second guessing the Police, right up until the time that a street criminal injures YOU...then you will see that the Police were right all along.
Note to yuppies: The Police know how to handle criminals....Trust them to do this work.
Anonymous said...
I had a 40ish, white, yuppie woman in a new SAAB tell me the day of PO Flisk's funeral (after I gave her a ticket) that: "they buried the wrong cop this morning"
I MF'd her up and down and yes, it was on video and yes, I dared her to complain and get a CR number.
Even the people who you would think are were on our side hate us.
People don't give a fuck about you and me, but G-d help you if you take 5 minutes to show up to write a parker on their neighbor that they called in.
12/05/2010 04:32:00 PM
Make sure you write that down ont he blue copy of the ticket and get to traffic court early. Testify in court as to what she said, if she doesn't pay the ticket.
And perhaps let us know what the plate number is, for safety sake, in case another officer were to stop her.
The "yuppie" or the young liberal asshole is often just as much trouble as the common criminal. Keep second guessing the Police, right up until the time that a street criminal injures YOU
Definition of a liberal yuppie:
A person who has not yet been a victim themselves.
He was in custody from 2007 onward brainiac. The custodial time is considered "time served." The shooting in June of 2010 was not prosecuted because the victim feared retaliation.
Now who isn't "paying attention?"
Seeing you have so much information on this case-why didn't you persuade that party to testify? Was any protection afforded him/her? Now a police officer is dead because of your incompetence. Thanks for nothing.
12/05/2010 09:27:00 PM
I have a question for you. If a convicted shit head shoots another shit head in this city and the second shit head refuses to prosecute the first shit head, why don't the useless political hacks at the ASA prosecute for reckless discharge of a firearm? At least something other than a thug walking away with nothing and emboldening him would occur.
Is that too hard for them to handle or do they just not give a fuck?
When the leadership is poor, as it was in the late 60's and early
70's, we find ourselves in the same situation as then. We are living now IMO in a time of history repeating itself.
12/05/2010 09:35:00 AM
It was much worse in the late 60's and early 70's.
Quote: " After reading article I read some of the comments...this country is going down the tubes"
Going down the tubes or already down it? We're so far down it, we are just waiting to hit rock bottom.
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