Officer Disarmed
Remember, there's always a gun on the scene of any incident - YOU bring it there:
- A shoplifter being arrested disarmed an officer and fired shots at police Saturday evening in Andersonville, but no officers were struck by gunfire, officials said.
The incident took place in the 5500 block of North Clark Street, near Clark Street and Catalpa Avenue, said Larry Merritt, a spokesman for the Independent Police Review Authority. Shots were fired at police, but no one was struck by the gunfire, he said.
Officers were arresting at least one shoplifter about 8 p.m. when one fought with police and disarmed an officer, firing shots, another official said, citing preliminary information.
It could not immediately be confirmed what other injuries the person who fired the gun or officers involved might have suffered.
Thank goodness it didn't end badly. Watch yourselves, your partner, your backup, and your prisoners.
Labels: info for the police, shooting
posted by SCC at 12:07 AM
78 Comments:
That offender was an unarmed man, like the asshole in Ferguson. He should be in the ground now; thank God the officer is still alive. We all need to train more and work on upper body strength training.
More information needed on how and why this miscreant was able to disable an officer.
I'm an old timer and I remember a device (a ring) that was worn and would allow the person wearing it to discharge the firearm only. The gun was useless to anybody with out the ring. With tecko geeks out there today, why couldn't we have some version of that ring today. thanks
Glad they were not hurt.
Remember criminals are stupid and have impulse control issues. Do not give them a chance to do something stupid and impulsive, like try to kill you over a shoplifting arrest.
This is a prime example of assist each other .
Go with high security holsters, my friends. The Level 3 seems like putting a padlock on your weapon but in almost no time you get so used to it it is no hinderance at all. That is not to say someone can't get your weapon out of it in a full-on fight but it lessens the chances considerably. I made the switch years ago so I know anyone can. Look at it as survival insurance.
6'3 military vet that pummeled the officer real bad. eye shut completely, thick blood everywhere from the officer...
Anything can blow up at anytime.
"Drunk woman causing a disturbance on the bus."
RIP, Officer Richard Francis.
Thank God the officers are o.k.
will IPRA look to discipline the officers as well as the Dept. because of the disarming and then their weapon being discharged by a civlian? fuck IPRA. THEY LOOK TO SLAM YOU FOR ANYTHING... THAK GOD FOR WATCHING OVER THE OFFICERS AND not having a different outcome. stay alert out there brothers/sisters. never let your guard down.
And maybe Dana Alexander should take a public speaking class. "Uh, ahhh, ummm"
If anyone knows, I would like to find out what type of holster the officer and if that type had failed in any way.
Did they get the guy? Handcuff quickly and effectively. It's the first thing that should be done on every arrest situation.
Sometimes, especially in the nicer parts of town, that rule is not followed. The results this time were not catastrophic, but could easily have been.
Level Three holsters! Also better back-up rigs. Was at a domestic years ago when we had to wrestle a dom/batt offender down to cuff him. Surprised to see a wheel gun tumbling about on the deck. Seems one of the officers lost his back-up out of a pancake holster.
Thank God all of our Brothers in Blue are okay and went home after all the paperwork.
Allegedly!
I have to emphasize that I do NOT know the full circumstances of this situation so I will not judge the officers.
That being said, this is a good time to bring up a widespread issue on this department, holster security. I am not one of those weird range guys that has too much lead in my brain, just a copper that wants to go home safe. If you look around there are A LOT of coppers not using prescribed Level 2 or higher duty holsters, it is quite alarming. If you think you are all "old school" or "tactical" and you are wearing a pancake or some variation of, then you are an asshole putting everyone around you at risk. If you choose not to carry any extras magazines, yet again, you are an asshole putting everyone at risk. You don't have to be the guy that over does it and carries anything and everything on some overloaded MOLLE vest, but at least carry the God damn essentials. If you are fat and lazy fine, just don't fool yourself and think that NO gear or TOO MUCH gear will safe your ass. It either won't be there for you or it will weigh you down more and you will never get a chance to use it. Keep in mind a little exercise here and there is always a good idea.
If it is just you getting hurt so be it, but don't be irresponsible with the lives of your coworkers or friends.
glad you guys are ok
stop wearing bullshit holsters. Maybe instead of worrying about contact cards supervisors should ding people for improper holsters. I'd rather not get killed because you can't spend the money on an actual holster. I see the tact guys all the time wearing that shit.
Hands up... Don't shoot!
Off USMC Vet with PTSD Careful boys and girls
POS Crazy Thompson is an Iraq War veteran
I don't know what the stats are what with the more secure holsters used by officers today. In the past about half of officers killed were killed with their own or their partners gun. RIP Fahey, O'Brien, Kilroy, Hauser, Seward and others. Stay safe out there.
A lot of Shoplifters are Heroin Addicts on Parole and need a fix,They wont hesitate to kill you if they get the chance.
Yup, Ferguson immediately comes to mind here.
It goes to show the likes of Showboat Sharpton, 2J, Phaker et al. the criminal mindset and how easy it is for an 'unarmed' individual to become a killer offender.
Where's the marches and public outcry.
Cue and put those crickets on overtime.
When you get a holding one Offender for shoplifting, They Sometimes have friends waiting outside the store,Never go alone Shoplifters work in teams.
Am I missing something? Why doesn't this post topic also include that the shoplifter was transported to the morgue?
Several years back a P0 on duty in 018 was shoping in CVS and was told by the store staff that they had somebody shoplifting in the store,When the PO approached the Offender, The female Offender pulled a knife and stabbed the PO.
The Heroin Addicts are stealing more from Stores in nice neighborhoods,Because they dont have Security so they call us when they have thefts in progress.
Glad this had a happy ending.
But what the hell is up with all these assholes resisting arrest over a simple shoplifting beef? I recall a similar incident on the North side about a year ago or so, but that guy would up shot dead by the officer.
(think it was around Montrose and Sheridan Rd , or Irving & Broadway)
I see a lot of two year wonder tac guys (and gals) wearing pankake and Level 1 Blackhawk gear because it looks cool. Respect the job but most importantly respect yourself. Unless you are truly undercover, everyone knows we are. Quit trying to look cool and wear a level 3 with a duty belt.
I would go back and forth about the merits about carrying two guns. In my younger days I always did. Two guns are harder to protect then one. If I carry two now one is a snub on the ankle.
Getting ready to walk out the door with 29 and a day. I remember a time when we all road on everyone's job and only peeled off when we saw that the assigned car was safe.
WE DON'T HAVE ENOPUGH OFFICERS IN PATROL. I don't care if Mayor Emmanuel says he only cut our manpower by a thousand officers. HIS Superintendent has mismanaged the manpower he has been given. Mr McCarthy has stripped the Patrol and the manpower isn't there to scrub the streets and back each other up.
Rise on every job. Back up your brothers and sisters. Get out the vote and vote this Mayor out.
Anybody but Rahm!
One of the Twitter scanner guys put up the audio last night, and a few things came out. Not criticizing anybody in particular.
#1, if you get out of your car for a handwaver for any sort of confrontation, please be sure to notify your dispatcher no matter what.
The audio showed a "10" that was quickly interrupted by someone else, and was apparently the officer calling the initial 10-1. A bit later the audio showed a distressed "Walgreens", which was apparently again from the officer but with nothing more.
It was several minutes before a clear 10-1 Walgreens on Clark came out.
Listening to this was a bit terrifying to realize that from the beginning of the audio to 3 minutes later, the officer was apparently being disarmed, shot at, fighting for his life, and then getting assistance from the store manager (and perhaps others).
Totally, totally scary to picture what was happening there and not apparent on the radio as folks in 024 were doing their normal thing.
I'm sure there are other things to draw, but please be sure to announce where you are for any confrontation you weren't assigned to!
Back in da day, there was an incident where a Krazy disarmed an officer in 025 and killed him and his partner. Within a week, "Lee Roy" Martin was on T.V. demonstrating the Security Holster he wanted everyone to use on their revolvers. Of course, Lee Roy being Lee Roy he was entertaining, and could barely draw the weapon, but the message was clear. However, now there is a separate issue and that is the fact that cops are reluctant to give the appearance of force. I have driven up on numerous occasions especially in 019 & 020 where officers are talking to suspects, instead of just cuffing them on the spot. It seems that officers want to calm the situation down verbally, rather than just cuffing the suspect and taking control of the situation then and there. If there is not enough, then you can uncuff and he can beef. Or are we that afraid of the beefs that we are willing to die over a complaint?
Thank God the officers are o.k.
will IPRA look to discipline the officers as well as the Dept. because of the disarming and then their weapon being discharged by a civlian? fuck IPRA. THEY LOOK TO SLAM YOU FOR ANYTHING... THAK GOD FOR WATCHING OVER THE OFFICERS AND not having a different outcome. stay alert out there brothers/sisters. never let your guard down.
There is a lot of good people down at IPRA. Your information is false.
To 1:05AM
Another retired old timer here that also remembers the device you were talking about. Called the "MagnaTrigger" I think. User wore a magnetic ring that would allow the gun to be fired. Was only prototyped on revolvers. And then only certain brand.
The gun control freaks loved the idea.
But...questions.
Does it work if you have glove on?
What if your partner needs to use your gun?
What copper would bet his life on this device?
But the BIG Q was : Liability. What if it malfunctions? Doesn't fire when operated?
If a department mandated or approved it and it malfunctioned would they also be liable?
As for security holsters: Can not believe that this is still an issue. Late 80's or so a copper was disrmed and killed with the gun taken from a near useless POS holster. Numerous officers tried to get him to upgrade, but he knew more than everyone.
Department wanted newer more secure holsters but didn't want to have to buy them. (First issue clause) Easy work-around on that.
As for the suggestion that supervisors ding people for shoddy holsters: All for it.
Uniform is a joke. When you go to a roll call and see 6 or 8 different configuration and everyone is "in uniform". A joke.
The idea of flexibility in uniform is also a hamper on cohesiveness, which was department's goal.
Officers back each other up no time for games !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Plain clothes officers step up and start working it should be an order plain clothes officers are to go to in progress calls . Every officer working inside should be in a car and working period!!!!
Believe it or not there was a time not to long ago,
when handcuffs were not prescribed equipment,
and a few officers in 020 refused to carry them!
OK, guys and gals: This is not a Monday morning quarterback statement, but I spent 38 years on this job working around the worst of the worst and the badest of them all, I have seen officers back in the day lose or almost lose their weapon both to a bad guy and it dropping from a holster, but the holsters marketed today have 2 and 3 safetys on them to control, and notice I said control not keep somebody from getting control of your gun, but these single strap holsters just don't make it, use some of that uniform money and spend 100 or 150 dollars for some piece of mind, now this officer who was disarmed will probably lose a day, if somebody disarms you other them the offender having a gun on you is YOU DEAL!!! Please go home safe to your loved ones!!!!
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Anything can blow up at anytime.
"Drunk woman causing a disturbance on the bus."
RIP, Officer Richard Francis.
2/15/2015 05:38:00 AM
Rick was my first thought, as well.
I wasn't there and I don't know what happened....but I will ask. Did this officer respond 10-99? ? Why didn't he or she wait for backup?? And what kind of holster did the officer have?? And what kind of physical shape was the officer in?? Prayers to the officer. Complacency and not waiting for backup are 2 of the deadly sins
RIP
Officers Houser and Kilroy.
Here's a good question. Was the officers gun taken out of his lower level (what ever that means) holster OR was it wrestled from the officer and taken from him/her? Old school, just wondering.
Please post the offenders name and address, for officer safety.
"6'3 military vet that pummeled the officer real bad. eye shut completely, thick blood everywhere from the officer..."
2/15/2015 04:52:00 AM
WBBM radio just reported this as "officers were slightly injured."
So there.
No quarter backing here on Monday, but brother works at the prison, the inmates as part of their recreation practice disarming with each other what do you think the savages want to do when released into the wild? Many veterans are being released and have PTSD in a major way, they are trained, in shape, and ready as their minds are still in the zoos of the middle east where they witnessed so much savage behavior, be careful back each other up!
You can be taught weapons retention, taught to shoot a fixed target,but when it comes down to real life or death situation, you have to think quickly,and always wait for backup!
How about get behind the holster.
I am glad the officers are alive and safe!
GUYS! I was there and please stop in Walgreens and say "Thank YOU" to the Store Clerk who helped out. I'm not judging the officers. Anything can happen. Most people (Like the 2 other assholes who just watched) Watched while these coppers fought with the guy. The clerk jumped right in and MAY** have helped them get the gun back, and was hurt in the process. Again, everyone hates us, but at least Thank the people that are with us when shit happens. He was still in it when the rounds went off. I hate CVS anyway.....
Anonymous said...
And maybe Dana Alexander should take a public speaking class. "Uh, ahhh, ummm"
2/15/2015 07:16:00 AM
I'll be honest with you, there are plenty of good black exempts, but very few are great orators. The good ones usually become rev er runds.
Bad guy was in the military with military police training and coked up. The officer had a level 3 holster and fighting for his life! So knock off the bashing one of our own. 20 and 24 did a great job
Fellow officers, your life is not worth the risk associated with another officer’s failure to purchase, wear, and practice and becoming familiar with a safety retention holster. Duty availability is for the upkeep and maintenance of safety equipment and uniforms. In particular one officer reminds everyone he is retiring in a year or so while flaunting an unsecured fully loaded weapon.
Each and every tour of duty, he will blatantly disregard his safety and fellow officer’s safety citing the expense of a new holster to replace his broken down holster. What is your life worth cheap ass? More importantly tell your children each night your frugal and your disregard for personal safety will make them orphans. He goes so far as to demonstrate the vulnerabilities of his holster. He proudly wears a non-functioning retention holster with a broken off top strap. He has demonstrated this holster does not secure his gun. He jokes around by removing his gun with just two fingers highlighting zero retention properties. Shame on you if you gamble with your life.
Tell your wife before leaving to work that you want your children orphaned and it’s the best $100 or so saved. By the way, you need to invest in a holster to prevent a fellow officer's children that orphaned status based on your self centered decision not to invest in a proven preventive measure like a relatively inexpensive safety holster. You concentrate puffing on your electronic cigarette diverting your attention from prisoners who may take advantage of your holster’s vulnerabilities with your lackadaisical attitude. Tragedy comes unannounced, when least expected and is further compounded when you fail to exercise known preventative measures. Buy the holster or retire asshat. Just because you work a wagon does not lessen the threat of being disarmed. Do it for your children. And have some consideration for others who don't have a death wish.
We are all Monday morning quarterbacks and we should count our blessings. Working in a candy ass district does not lessen the threat posed by those occasional criminals in the slower districts. Criminals constantly read your behaviors and will exploit your vulnerabilities. Criminals know who you are but do you really know who they are? Search, search, search. Use those handcuffs and search and search again.
Quit the MFing Monday Morning Quarterbacking!!!!
the disarmed officer DID HAVE a level three holster, the offender had some type of LE training from his military days and he knew how an SS III works.
Both officers were good sized, including one that is in excellent physical shape.
shit happens, even in Mayberry, this was a shoplifter who was chased out into the lot by the mananger of the store and the officers just happened into it.
(OT) a peaceful religion? Again cowards beheading innocents, and they want to take our guns away no way! Happy gun sales are way up, now the innocents can God willing defend themselves from these cowards!
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/15/video-purports-to-show-isis-militants-beheading-christian-hostages/
Glad the officers will be ok.
Weapons retention and level 3 holsters are a must.
There is a PO in 011 who is more concerned about his discount at Burger King than spending some of his uniform check to buy a new holster. Electrical tape over your top strap is not safe. Your holster is worn out and no longer serviceable.
You were top gun in your class and you still have the same holster from 15 years ago?
Do us a favor Burger King man and buy a new holster, the life you save may be your own or mine.
Stop being a cheap ass!
Anonymous said...
Level Three holsters! Also better back-up rigs. Was at a domestic years ago when we had to wrestle a dom/batt offender down to cuff him. Surprised to see a wheel gun tumbling about on the deck. Seems one of the officers lost his back-up out of a pancake holster.
2/15/2015 07:40:00 AM
During my career 8 officers were killed with their own gun. All CPD. All bullshit holsters. For want of spending a couple of hundred they lost their lives. And the cheap fucking City could make Level III holsters mandatory for everyone but is too cheap to have to buy one for everyone. They would rather pay Line of Duty death benefits to the surviving family. On the wagon I had a partner who would walk into the crowd of prisoners waiting for intake at the rear of 26th & Cal with his revolver in an old thumb snap holsters. I wouldn't walk down there with him with that holster. 50 or 100 hard asses who hate the police and he walks among them with very little protecting that weapon which he is not even supposed to carry down there. I got off that wagon with him.
What other big city police department lets their officers carry revolvers and antique holsters. The younger officers all are required to have a Level III. The dinosaurs consider it a point of honor to carry that old weapon, not a point of stupidity. I retired that revolver by 1995. 29 years and I carry a Glock in a level III. My life is worth more than a holster.
I am NOT saying this is a factor here, but lots of guys are wearing BS unsafe holsters. The arguments guys make are essentially the same as those made by coppers who don't wear seatbelts. "It's faster." Those extra seconds might end up getting you killed... Be safe please.
whether or not either of the two officers had a TASER to deploy, after refusing verbal direction under the outlined circumstances deploy TASER! 1X, 2X, whatever it takes rush in and handcuff.
its always a judgement call based upon experience, verbal direction, use tools immediately available and take nothing for granted, race, location, offense, offender, etc
this lack of policing attitude will get the unexpected hurt your always the predator and they are always the prey!
Prayer to the PO that took a bad hit to the eye.
Shit happens and fuck the blame game when you are not in the battle that night.
Retired and us old timers wore shit holsters cause we did not know better. Many a piece flew out of ankle and waist hoslters during a battle.
Many of us had horseshoes in our ass and not ending up dead do to pistol falling out.
Another learning expierence guys !
You street guys in the districcts are always the hero' to the old time police. Stay sane guys !
Is it true, via the media the security guy helped the police big time ? We all know he is not qualified to be accepted to CPD cause he took a bull shit D/C pinch when he was 15 yoa. The security guard should be awarded for his help if true.
Stay safe to all the great CPD sworn members.
From and Andersonville resident, thank you CPD and god bless you all. Not just for this incident, but for each and everytime you leave your home and swear to uphold the law, preserve peace and property, and serve to ensure that strangers such as myself and my family can sleep safely at night. I try (and teach my children to do the same as much as possible) to say thank you in person and to remain mindful of the many many many sacrifices you all make on a daily basis.
I will continue to try to express this gratitude in person. And even when I don't, please know that not all of us are "sheeple." Nor are we blind to the fact that whether it is the stress from shift work, missed holidays/bdays/etc, all the way up to the ultimate stress of having your life flash before your eyes in a scenario like this, you have supporters and people who are eternally grateful you chose this profession and serve in our city.
Also, on a side note, I would like to know if the staff from Walgreens who the Tribune indicated helped to disarm the offender, ends up being terminated due to violation of a corporate policy of when to engage/disengage shoplifters. If that would be the case, the only people I would like to honor besides CPD themselves would be this guy for doing the right thing despite the consequences.
How about get behind the holster.
2/15/2015 02:56:00 PM
&&&&&&&&&&
How about don't be cheap and lazy and buy a new holster with proper level 2 or 3 retention for 125 bucks. Believe it or not you can actually use your uniform check for that and have plenty left over for all your other hillbilly rich purchases you must use the uniform check for.
Anonymous said...
RIP
Officers Hauser and Kilroy.
2/15/2015 12:58:00 PM
Fahey and O'brien
Seward
Camp
Francis
Soderberg
Theres a former PPO now PO still on foot who has a level 3 but refuses to use all locking mechanism on the holster like locking the,hood. Hope that new PO reads the article and thinks about his/her fellow officers instead of trying to impress his/her tac friends
Level III and Level III+
Holster for your weapon.
Carry two weapons just in case...
Your #2 weapon should be the
smallest version of your duty
weapon and can operate with your
duty weapon magazines... Or at
least be of the same caliber.
Ankle Holsters?
Are you strong enough to do a sit-up and get it with old boy sitting on your chest and pounding your head?
Just saying...
Your #2 should be secured, closely and descretely carried.
Tactical tether?
Well... It could give a few seconds of
"Hey wait a minute" to do what you need
to do to defeat a disarm.
Revolver as a back-up?
Shrouded/Internal hammer...
A lot of this is plain common sense and will to survive in spite of the incompetence and buffoonery of those in charge...
They take pains to never be endangered...
That's for you churls.
Stay safe y'all.
Years ago in 019 I ended up giving my old level II holster to a PO who was the" relief " person on my car. Great guy-but he refused to replace his old "border patrol" model holster that was designed for a quick draw. The holster also hung out at a 15• angle from a thin trouser (not a duty rig) belt. I knew he would never replace the holster so I did indirectly by getting myself a level III and giving my old level II to him. He also got my old duty belt since the security bolsters are optimal when attached to a Sam Browne duty belt. The only demand was that he had to cover the bar tab the next few times for the after shift "debriefings".
Sorry for second guessing the officer. A military police guy. Amazing. Be careful out there.
Thank God we are not planning a funeral. God bless that Walgreens employee. He saved the life of our brother. Phew, you do everything right and asshole still gets your gun. Frightening.
My partner and I walked into a 7-11 store and were approached by a homeless guy wearing fatigues, He immediately started talking about our duty weapons and holsters. Stunned at how educated he was regarding weapons, he told us he was released from the military and was trained with all types of weapons. we ended up locking him up, turns out hes on all types of psych medication for ptsd. These guys are out there and know more about your gun and holster than you do. Stay safe.
Bad holsters and tasers in the side pockets of their pants with no holster. Where are the supervisors?
Thank God the officers are o.k.
will IPRA look to discipline the officers as well as the Dept. because of the disarming and then their weapon being discharged by a civlian? fuck IPRA. THEY LOOK TO SLAM YOU FOR ANYTHING... THAK GOD FOR WATCHING OVER THE OFFICERS AND not having a different outcome. stay alert out there brothers/sisters. never let your guard down.
There is a lot of good people down at IPRA. Your information is false.
2/15/2015 11:28:00 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! Listen kool-aid drinker, I agree with the first post. IPRA is very petty and in fact the revised a couple of orders lately because they couldn't hang the involved officers with what they had.
Certain orders have been changed at their recommendation because they were outsmarted by the officers who pointed out how they followed protocol in accordance with department directives.
Former DEA Ando attempts to portray as running a clean ship, however, he has selected a team of haters that will try anything and everything to jam up a copper even if it means petty mediation bs in order to get their numbers to show that they indeed discipline police officers.
the disarmed officer DID HAVE a level three holster, the offender had some type of LE training from his military days and he knew how an SS III works
Semper Fi
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Officers back each other up no time for games !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Plain clothes officers step up and start working it should be an order plain clothes officers are to go to in progress calls . Every officer working inside should be in a car and working period!!!!
2/15/2015 11:42:00 AM
---
STFU unless you know what actually happened. Goof.
Will the CLOUTED be in Danger?
PO be safe Patrol is the worst and the Clouted do nothing Take your time and go home at the end of your tour.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
My partner and I walked into a 7-11 store and were approached by a homeless guy wearing fatigues, He immediately started talking about our duty weapons and holsters. Stunned at how educated he was regarding weapons, he told us he was released from the military and was trained with all types of weapons. we ended up locking him up, turns out hes on all types of psych medication for ptsd. These guys are out there and know more about your gun and holster than you do. Stay safe.
2/16/2015 04:22:00 AM
You locked him up because he's on ptsd meds? Or because he knows about guns?
I remember an incident, a car thief, getting caught after a crash and a foot chase got alittle bit of a wood shampoo from responding Units when a revolver was found under him. It turned out to be a P.O.s gun that had fallen out of a "pancake" and got knocked around under the poor bastard, I'll never forget the look on the P.O.s face as they discovered their empty holster! ....Please have your weapon secured!
Yes I totally agree...stop the bashing and the Monday morning quarterbacking....
We need to take care of each other and not bash one another
there are way to many officers taking jobs and acknowledging them as a 99 unit , and saying to the dispatcher"ill let you know if I need a back up"
bull crap, do not do that , take your assist car and do it the right way, the safe way, the smart way....
We all need to go home to our families
and if youre driving around doing nothing and you hear a call that might require additional cars head that way.....
we need to take care of one another because if you haven't noticed we sure don't have much help from anyone these days
take care of one another and please be safe and as always be smart
much respect to you all and get well officers
Supposedly got out after 2 years....they haven't had 2 year enlistments in a long time, and probably not for a longer training course MOS like MP. 2 yrs for a cook or truck driver...maybe, in the 70's.
Anonymous said...
Supposedly got out after 2 years....they haven't had 2 year enlistments in a long time, and probably not for a longer training course MOS like MP. 2 yrs for a cook or truck driver...maybe, in the 70's.
2/17/2015 02:30:00 AM
Two years was for draftees.
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