Tuesday, February 17, 2015

Use of Force Question

The order states the following:
  • (Use of firearms in the following ways is prohibited) Firing at or into a moving vehicle when the vehicle is the only force used against the sworn member or another person.
But Section II-A-1 and 2 state the following:
  • II - Department Policy

    A. A sworn member is justified in using force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he or she reasonable believes that such force is necessary:

    1. to prevent death or great bodily harm to the sworn member or to another person, or:

    2. to prevent an arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape and the sworn member reasonably believes that the person to be arrested:

    a: has committed or has attempted to commit a forcible felony which involves the infliction, threatened infliction, or threatened is of physical force like to cause death or great bodily harm or;

    b: is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon or;

    c: otherwise indicates that he or she will endanger human life or inflict great bodily harm unless arrested without delay
Um....you mean like using a car as a two-ton guided missile? That kind of death or great bodily harm?

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40 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is all rather murky and ambiguous.

2/17/2015 12:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is a guided missile only if you stand in it's path. Either get out of it's path, or don't get in it's path in the first place. It is only common sense.

2/17/2015 12:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Isn't using a vehicle to run over a police officer a forcible felony?

2/17/2015 01:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But hmmm, using a car and killing someone is only a misdemeanor in the suburbs:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-teen-driver-charged-in-fatal-christmas-day-crash-in-orland-park-20150216-story.html

The ASA could not find a felony charge in the book with which to charge someone driving 80 mph in a 45 mph zone, said action resulting in the death of someone's loved one?? Simply pathetic.

2/17/2015 01:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OT: FYI, stopping someone because they have a concealed carry license isn't probable cause.

2/17/2015 02:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Running people over is a rite of passage for some ethnic groups, just like randomly shooting people in certain neighborhoods.

2/17/2015 04:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


For years the Department has put out contradictory orders and changed or outright rescinded them days or weeks later. Misspellings, incorrect information and outright stupidity is so common I always wait a few weeks for the revision instead of wasting any effort trying to figure out the original. It saves a lot of time.

2/17/2015 05:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We can blame this change of force on the front steps of King Dickie's home. He is the panderer to the Gettho reveruns. He allowed some idiot Lt. trying to make a name for themself. This Lt. more than likely was not on the street for a decade of more, but they allowed this mope to write up a general order that is complete bs. Wait until the scum lawyers start using our poorly written general orders to sue us for every little bs order. The orders need to be totally re-done and minimized.

2/17/2015 05:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You can't blame these poor merit hack political appointees from reacting to the desires of their political socialist masters. I feel for them. I really do. They must feel outraged that the police defend themselves from attack.

2/17/2015 06:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SCC, if a car comes at you, just use the superhero leap into a Barrel Roll that we all learned in the academy, specifically for this situation. Then write down the drivers plate number so you can send him a very stern letter in the mail.

Modern Policing of the 21st century.

2/17/2015 07:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another prime example of how reactionary, liberal, inexperienced and clueless our command staff truly is. As this was circulating around amongst the gold stars, there wasn't one who saw this and said wait this is pure idiocy? I am surprised that the order didn't say that if a black or Hispanic is driving the car while tryinv to kill you, you can't shoot at it. This department is lost, our command staff is weak and spineless. Remove politics from promotions, being Ed Burke's relative or being a certain ethnic group doesn't qualify you to be boss. Experience, knowledge, ability, leadership, and compassion does.

2/17/2015 07:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're wrong on this. Shooting a car, or even the unlikely chance of it's driver, won't stop it. In fact you only run the risk of that 2-ton guided missile now being out of control.

2/17/2015 07:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Self defense trumps all the policies, special orders, general orders, or whatever an empty holster fuck is telling you. Shoot to kill in these situations and be safe rather than in the morgue with a tag on your toe.

2/17/2015 08:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems like the order they just put forth, really has no meaning,as an officer will not obey the order if the vehicle will be used as weapon. So what is it? Just another way in civil litigation to have things taken from the officer, like their job,house,pension and possibly freedom! Policing over it's a shame that the innocent citizens will take the brunt of this. We are a semi-military organization they tell us, umm don't think so! More like kindergarten cops!

2/17/2015 08:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We used to be able to shoot burglars.

Not sure if I'm making some sort of meaningful point here.

You decide.

Stay safe.

2/17/2015 08:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The City does not want you shooting into cars that might have non-offenders in it. Get it?

You blast some baby cause his sperm donor is fleeing a trip to the joint, it will be your ass. If you value your livelihood less than "catching the bad guy" then continue to act like it is 1993.

2/17/2015 08:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who wrote this policy, the ACLU? A speeding vehicle being driven deliberately at you can kill you just as assuredly as a bullet. Two men were recently run down and killed by a vehicle driven by Suge Knight in a drive-in parking lot in L.A. during a dispute. Knight has been arrested and charged with two counts of murder. Why didnt the victims "just jump out of the way"?. This order wrongly assumes there is time or space available to jump to safety. That decision is best left to the discretion of the officer on the scene, not by gutless, liability-fearing bureaucrats sitting safely at their desks. Did it occur to the city that a lawsuit could be filed on behalf of an officer killed or injured in the field, as a result of an overly restrictive policy? If command leadership had any courage or common sense, they would be more concerned about protecting the safety of officers, instead of criminals.

2/17/2015 08:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Typical catch-all definition which will jam you up depending who is overlooking the case. Gary is not here to protect us even if we are innocent.

2/17/2015 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Mr. SouthSide said...

You have to with with the logic. Logic has nothing to do with political correctness.

2/17/2015 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger Cuthbert J. Twillie said...

WTF? Does McJersey come up with this stuff while he's shit-faced? Someone friggen is. With all those listed exceptions the prohibition on use of force with a firearm rule is moot.

Or maybe, someone is playing legal games to appease some (cough)'interest group' -- 'See Rev, we have *a rule* that says police can't shoot at a car'. Just don't tell them about the 199 exceptions that cancels said rule.

2/17/2015 10:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Off topic: but police haters work at the car wash at 87th Langley. One of their workers approached a police officer in the now recognizable "hands up don't shoot" stance. He didn't do it to any other cars in line so I knew what it meant.

I will go somewhere else or drive a dirty squad.

2/17/2015 10:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sometimes I understand you just can't possibly get out of the way. The majority of the time both you and I know you can get out of the way. Coppers just love using the line of the law says I can shoot so I'm gonna shoot him. I've killed two people on this job. Don't ever just shoot somebody because a general order or law says you can. Do it because you are about to be killed. Not because a car is about to brush your leg or he is running away with his back turned with a gun. Don't live your life knowing u killed somebody because a law made by politicians says you can. God doesn't recognize man made laws. Your actions and your decisions are what are judged. I'm not exactly a huge religious holy roller but having been through it twice you start to feel a lot of different things and start to really think outside the box about this. Your not just shooting some west side dog or dope boy or animal. Under all of dudes crimes and actions in the past they are still just a human being like me and you. Remember that. If I catch flack oh well. I have my feelings about it. I'm not saying don't shoot somebody.. If you have too then you have too to protect your life or another.. But don't just do it because the law says you can especially if u can safely let the situation play out a little longer to possibly preserve all life. Sometimes it's just not the case

2/17/2015 11:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The order says step out of the direction the car is heading, however if the car reestablishes a new heading and it is coming towards you then FUCK THE ORDER he is trying to kill you.

2/17/2015 12:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ff topic: but police haters work at the car wash at 87th Langley. One of their workers approached a police officer in the now recognizable "hands up don't shoot" stance. He didn't do it to any other cars in line so I knew what it meant.

I will go somewhere else or drive a dirty squad.



36 Halsted hand wash love the police and do a good job. Stop by there.

2/17/2015 01:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is a guided missile only if you stand in it's path. Either get out of it's path, or don't get in it's path in the first place. It is only common sense.

2/17/2015 12:37:00 AM

If someone is DRIVING a car at you, what is it?

You do know cars have steering wheels and are often driven by people?

You may also consider the fact that most cars are way faster than most people.

Class dismissed dumbfuck.

2/17/2015 03:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember sitting in on a round table for a shooting in 15. Officer tried to turn off bad guys ignition, he takes off with copper hanging onto car for dear life. Bad guy driving down Chicago, witnesses hear cop screaming at driver to stop, but he won't.
Cop able to shoot driver, car comes to halt.
OPS or IPRA, forgot which, was asked by Dean Andrews if they anticipated a CR allegation against officer.
Investigator sheepishly says yes...for firing at a moving vehicle.
Dean told the officer to make no statements.

2/17/2015 03:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you can't use a speeding vessel as a weapon , just ask the folks in the world trade center.....oh, wait a second

2/17/2015 04:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OT --

"Use of force" in the Middle East --

ISIS militants reportedly burn to death 45 people in western Iraqi town

February 17, 2015

"Islamic State militants reportedly have burned to death 45 people in the western Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi on Tuesday, just five miles away from an air base staffed by hundreds of U.S. Marines.

"...[some} victims...are believed to be among the security forces that have been clashing with ISIS for control of the town...a compound that houses families of security personnel and officials is now under siege.

...[just] days after ISIS released a video...showing the beheadings of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians..

"Friday, ISIS released a...video [which] showed Kurdish prisoners -- imprisoned in iron cages -- being driven around on trucks....similar
to the scenes of an execution of a Jordanian pilot, Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh [who] was burned alive in a cage."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/17/isis-reportedly-burns-alive-45-people-in-western-iraqi-town/

U.S. response?

State Department spokeswoman floats jobs as answer to ISIS

February 17, 2015

"What the West really needs to take on the Islamic State is ... a jobs program.

"That's what a top State Department spokeswoman suggested when asked in a TV interview Monday night about what the U.S.-led coalition is doing to stop the slaughter of civilians by Islamic State militants across the region.

"We're killing a lot of them, and we're going to keep killing more of them. ... But we cannot win this war by killing them," department spokeswoman Marie Harf said on MSNBC's "Hardball." "We need ... to go after the root causes that leads people to join these groups, whether it's lack of opportunity for jobs, whether --"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/17/state-department-spokeswoman-floats-jobs-as-answer-to-isis/

We understand that the Burning Cage Factory over there is hiring welders and steel fabricators...

2/17/2015 05:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is a guided missile only if you stand in it's path. Either get out of it's path, or don't get in it's path in the first place. It is only common sense."

2/17/2015 12:37:00 AM

Maybe someday you'll get the chance to see an automobile -- perhaps on a "supervised outside walk."

The round thing inside is a "steering wheel." Controls direction of vehicle. Now try hard -- there is someone behind that wheel who wants to kill you.

Bath time now!

2/17/2015 05:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"We used to be able to shoot burglars.

"Not sure if I'm making some sort of meaningful point here."

2/17/2015 08:19:00 AM

Property has since been devalued. A friend says, "Your property is a concrete representation of your life -- you spent your effort, your life-time, earning it. Defending your property is defending your life."

2/17/2015 05:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The City does not want you shooting into cars that might have non-offenders in it. Get it?

"You blast some baby cause his sperm donor is fleeing a trip to the joint, it will be your ass..."

2/17/2015 08:46:00 AM

Increasingly they are bringing the chiluns along when they do a robbery; "human shields." Not when -- if you survive the fusillade -- you get stuck with felony child endangerment, possibly kidnap if they are not all your chiluns and babymama say "Don't know where he took them."

2/17/2015 05:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Easy soultion....Just don't stop any cars. Remember, when things go wrong you will find yourself all alone. No boss will ever go to bat for you and risk their $$$$$ and advancement on this job. Learn from history.

2/17/2015 07:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

01:27:00
"The ASA could not find a felony charge in the book with which to charge someone driving 80 mph in a 45 mph zone, said action resulting in the death of someone's loved one?? Simply pathetic"

Hey Genius, He was not drunk, and not fleeing the police. No intent to injure. Read the Traffic and Criminal Code. What Felony would you charge. (Reason 1- for Cook County SA to have Felony Review.)

2/17/2015 07:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OT --

Gun rights groups await judge's ruling on California's 'microstamping' law

Published February 17, 2015

"California's gun laws are among the nation's strictest, but a looming decision in a federal lawsuit could effectively ban handguns altogether in the Golden State, according to plaintiffs who want a judge to toss out a state law requiring all new handguns to be equipped with technology that "stamps" each shell casing with a traceable mark."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/17/gun-rights-groups-await-judge-ruling-on-california-microstamping-law/

One laser engraving on firing pin tip to "stamp" fired primer, and one engraving on breech face to "stamp" case right next to primer pocket.

Ha.

The Old Toolmaker says -- "That'll buff out."

So there.

2/17/2015 08:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is all rather murky and ambiguous."

2/17/2015 12:22:00 AM

Take your Abilify, with a "safe" Styrofoam cup of strong coffee.

2/17/2015 08:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Frank Rizzo said...

87 and Langley? Police actually have cars washed in that area? The car wash is probably money laundering for drug dealers.

2/17/2015 10:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

s said...
Off topic: but police haters work at the car wash at 87th Langley. One of their workers approached a police officer in the now recognizable "hands up don't shoot" stance. He didn't do it to any other cars in line so I knew what it meant.

I will go somewhere else or drive a dirty squad.

2/17/2015 10:17:00

He's been doing that since he worked over at 53 and Kimball

Get some time on the job.

2/17/2015 11:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The majority of the time both you and I know you can get out of the way. Coppers just love using the line of the law says I can shoot so I'm gonna shoot him."

2/17/2015 11:21:00

When do the office staff at Loewy and Leowy and the People's Law Project check off?

2/17/2015 11:21:00 AM

"I've killed two people on this job."

So clean the Mr. Coffee thing like you were told to. God.

2/18/2015 03:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sometimes I understand you just can't possibly get out of the way. The majority of the time both you and I know you can get out of the way. Coppers just love using the line of the law says I can shoot so I'm gonna shoot him. I've killed two people on this job. Don't ever just shoot somebody because a general order or law says you can. Do it because you are about to be killed. Not because a car is about to brush your leg or he is running away with his back turned with a gun. Don't live your life knowing u killed somebody because a law made by politicians says you can. God doesn't recognize man made laws. Your actions and your decisions are what are judged. I'm not exactly a huge religious holy roller but having been through it twice you start to feel a lot of different things and start to really think outside the box about this. Your not just shooting some west side dog or dope boy or animal. Under all of dudes crimes and actions in the past they are still just a human being like me and you. Remember that. If I catch flack oh well. I have my feelings about it. I'm not saying don't shoot somebody.. If you have too then you have too to protect your life or another.. But don't just do it because the law says you can especially if u can safely let the situation play out a little longer to possibly preserve all life. Sometimes it's just not the case

2/17/2015 11:21:00 AM


Sounds like you are in a lot of pain in this post. However, your line "Coppers just love using the line of the law says I can shoot so I'm gonna shoot him" is way out of line.

I knew one copper like that, and it sounds like you were in the same boat and now have some problems with your conscience. Don't paint any of us with your brush, my friend. You are one in a million.

It sounds like you have become a danger to you and your co-workers. You should think about hanging it up. Chances are you killed two guys that needed it, but you are one twisted and conflicted son of a gun. Again, we are not like that. Talk to someone, that's why we have EAP. Talk to your supervisor at least.

2/18/2015 05:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The copper who shot and killed two people on the job is doing nothing wrong in reflecting about it, that is a normal human reaction. He is not s danger, it is not a sign of weakness to think about one's actions in a shooting. Do what you have to do, just know there are consequences. But better to be alive at the end of the day.

2/18/2015 10:54:00 PM  

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